Why did God decree Death?

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Gorgias said:
Din Rumi isn’t God, though. 😉
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Read for yourself, translation might read a bit odd though:


Gorgias said:
Doesn’t this imply, though, that God doesn’t know about the particulars of the pearl until the “reaping and harvesting”?
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Not at all, God being a hidden treasure, wanting to be known, simply means that He desires to manifest Himself in His creation.
 
St. Irenaeus answers this question as follows:
  1. Wherefore also He drove him out of Paradise, and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some venture to assert, but because He pitied him, [and did not desire] that he should continue a sinner for ever, nor that the sin which surrounded him should be immortal, and evil interminable and irremediable. But He set a bound to his [state of] sin, by interposing death, and thus causing sin to cease, Romans 6:7 putting an end to it by the dissolution of the flesh, which should take place in the earth, so that man, ceasing at length to live to sin, and dying to it, might begin to live to God.
  2. For this end did He put enmity between the serpent and the woman and her seed, they keeping it up mutually: He, the sole of whose foot should be bitten, having power also to tread upon the enemy’s head; but the other biting, killing, and impeding the steps of man, until the seed did come appointed to tread down his head — which was born of Mary, of whom the prophet speaks: You shall tread upon the asp and the basilisk; you shall trample down the lion and the dragon; — indicating that sin, which was set up and spread out against man, and which rendered him subject to death, should be deprived of its power, along with death, which rules [over men]; and that the lion, that is, antichrist, rampant against mankind in the latter days, should be trampled down by Him; and that He should bind the dragon, that old serpent Revelation 20:2 and subject him to the power of man, who had been conquered Luke 10:19 so that all his might should be trodden down. Now Adam had been conquered, all life having been taken away from him: wherefore, when the foe was conquered in his turn, Adam received new life; and the last enemy, death, is destroyed, 1 Corinthians 15:26 which at the first had taken possession of man. Therefore, when man has been liberated, what is written shall come to pass, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your sting? 1 Corinthians 15:54-55 This could not be said with justice, if that man, over whom death did first obtain dominion, were not set free. For his salvation is death’s destruction. When therefore the Lord vivifies man, that is, Adam, death is at the same time destroyed.
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http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103323.htm
 
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Anrakyr said:
Then when we finally die we enter a static unchanging state for eternity as what?
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As an individual who experiences the height of the joys for which he was created, and toward which he is oriented?
Anrakyr said:
I do NOT consent to this game.
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Yeah… I can see where “eternal bliss” doesn’t sound attractive… :roll_eyes: 😉
oliver109 said:
God is the one who decides if we die or not, we do not have any choice in the matter!
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No. God doesn’t “decide if we die or not”. You keep trying to assert this, but this is not what the Church teaches!
 
Gorgias said:
Yeah… I can see where “eternal bliss” doesn’t sound attractive… :roll_eyes: 😉
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.38% is not an acceptable win rate.
It’s not that eternal bliss (assuming that’s what’s on the table) it’s the odds.
 
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There was a private rev to I want to say a French nun can’t confirm but the bottom line is out of all 1000 or so people who died in her city only 3-4 made it to heaven.

The point being here is the shear volumes of grim God I see stagger the imagination.

My personal favorite is when Lucy at Fatima asks the blessed virgin if she, and the other two are going to heaven. Our lady responds yes but adds Francesco will have to say many roserys.

Fearful for a friend who died earlier that month Lucy asks if she is in heaven which our lady says:

“No, she is in Purgatory till the end of time.”

What the hell can a school girl of about 8 years old do in 1917 to merit that?
 
Anrakyr said:
There was a private rev to I want to say a French nun can’t confirm but the bottom line is out of all 1000 or so people who died in her city only 3-4 made it to heaven.

The point being here is the shear volumes of grim God I see stagger the imagination.

My personal favorite is when Lucy at Fatima asks the blessed virgin if she, and the other two are going to heaven. Our lady responds yes but adds Francesco will have to say many roserys.

Fearful for a friend who died earlier that month Lucy asks if she is in heaven which our lady says:

“No, she is in Purgatory till the end of time.”

What the hell can a school girl of about 8 years old do in 1917 to merit that?
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So you are superstitiously religious? I was under the impression (please correct me) that you do not believe in God. But in your post you give credence to what amounts to superstitious views of private revelations. (no, I;m not saying that private revelations are superstitions per se)
I don’t get it.
 
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SalamKhan said:
Jalal ad Din Rumi says that without death, we would be like a field that never gets reaped & harvested. That among the created beings there are pure souls & dark souls, that it is necessary to make manifest this good & evil just as it is necessary to distinguish the wheat from the straw.

What do you think of this question?
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God created pure spirits (angels and those that became demons) and spiritual beings (mankind) with eternal existence, and the other creatures are not eternal. By giving the pure spirits and spiritual beings free will, it means that either charity (good) or malice (evil) can be chosen: a necessary choice to allow proof of charity through which each could attain the vision of God. In Christian theology, Adam and Eve were given a preternatural gift of bodily immortality that they did not have by human nature, with God knowing it would be lost through their free choice of evil. Therefore it is not a decree for mankind to experience death but resulted from a choice known by God.
 
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goout said:
So you are superstitiously religious? I was under the impression (please correct me) that you do not believe in God. But in your post you give credence to what amounts to superstitious views of private revelations. (no, I;m not saying that private revelations are superstitions per se)
I don’t get it.
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I don’t know, there are clues to point to a higher ‘other’ I’m just not sure in what way. I was raised catholic. I’m a hacker and an activist, I spend more time researching then probably is healthy for me. I follow money and find lies.

At the end of the day I see the world in various shades of grey.

People are not Evil, just weak souls and sad hearts. People do what they can believing they are serving a greater good, be it family or themselves. No group is pure, no idea truly tainted.

I try to avoid totems, concepts of tribalism.

At the end of the day I just don’t know.
 
Anrakyr said:
There was a private rev to I want to say a French nun can’t confirm but the bottom line is out of all 1000 or so people who died in her city only 3-4 made it to heaven.
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Two thoughts:
  • That’s private revelation, which doesn’t mean that it’s doctrinal truth.
  • Maybe that town was the “Las Vegas” of its day. After all, would you expect much more than 0.38% of Las Vegas’ites to get through the Pearly Gates? 😉
Anrakyr said:
What the hell can a school girl of about 8 years old do in 1917 to merit that?
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We can have a long discussion, if you wish, about the fact that there’s not really “time” in the process of purgation. But again, we can just say “private revelation” and leave it at that…
 
The case remains that a lot of people probably wont die sufficiently holy deaths to be worthy of Heaven, when we look at how easy it is to commit a mortal sin(and don’t tell me it is not easy because it is) and how often death comes suddenly without ample preparation in the minutes before it one can be quite sure that only a few have died at peace with God.
 
oliver109 said:
how easy it is to commit a mortal sin(and don’t tell me it is not easy because it is) and how often death comes suddenly without ample preparation in the minutes before it one can be quite sure that only a few have died at peace with God.
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It’s easy to sin. I’d dispute that it’s easy to commit mortal sin (on an ongoing basis). If a person is contrite, and it intending to go to confession, but dies before he’s able, we don’t believe that God will go “aha! gotcha!”…
 
Well a lot of mortal sins are thought sins which is why they are so easy to commit, it is more difficult to go out and commit a mortal sin quite frankly as it is easier to stop the body from wandering than the mind from wandering. If sins were so easy to avoid then a lot fewer people would commit mortal sins!
 
oliver109 said:
Well a lot of mortal sins are thought sins which is why they are so easy to commit, it is more difficult to go out and commit a mortal sin quite frankly as it is easier to stop the body from wandering than the mind from wandering.
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Sometimes I’ll catch myself going on a train of thought going a direction I really not ought to, one that would cross the line between mortal and venial sin. At that moment, I go, “Whoops! I should end this now!” And I do, and that’s the end of it. Other times I get some horrible thing out of left field that I would never want to think or dwell on, but it’s in my mind. God knows I don’t want it, so I try and block it out as well as I can knowing it’s not a sin.

However, there are times when I know I shouldn’t do/think something, and I do it anyway. I ignore the voice in my head telling me to stop. This is no longer dealing with a random unwelcome thought (not a sin), or realizing I need get a grip on my thoughts and doing so (venial). I am now conscientiously engaging with this thought/action despite my conscience telling me not to and knowing I really shouldn’t. And that is when I cross from venial sin to mortal. That’s how mortal sin works.
 
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That is true, you have to try and block the thoughts out but I will add that it can be very hard to do so, especially when our passions and emotions are so strong, it is something that is not easy, why does God not make avoiding sin easy?
 
oliver109 said:
That is true, you have to try and block the thoughts out but I will add that it can be very hard to do so, especially when our passions and emotions are so strong, it is something that is not easy, why does God not make avoiding sin easy?
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This may sound harsh.

This may not make sense, but you’re not required to block them out of your mind. You’re required to resist as best as you’re able. If you’re trying to get rid of them on your own, it’s a losing battle. Resisting sin without relying on or calling out to God for help is impossible. This may be a bit of a presumption on my part, but from what I’ve seen, in your posts, you go on about it’s hard to block these thoughts from your head, how God is making it hard, how you neither trust nor try to resist, and haven’t made a mention on how you reach out to God during these struggles – not afterwards when you’re heading to the confessional, but during. That should be the first and best step, as hard as that may be.
 
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The resisting is what is hard, as I said my passions and emotions make it a difficult task, especially during moments of boredom(we all have those though your job sounds interesting so you probably don’t have to deal with that at work at least!) I pray in these struggles, of course I do, I just find the struggle exhausting tbh.
 
oliver109 said:
The resisting is what is hard, as I said my passions and emotions make it a difficult task, especially during moments of boredom(we all have those though your job sounds interesting so you probably don’t have to deal with that at work at least!)
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Oh no, it does get boring. My brain gets tired, I can’t be thinking and programming 8 hours straight. I go for walks, I go on my phone, I drown my brain in music, etc. I am sometimes asked to do things I know will take a while but they still need to be done. Some tasks deal with important matters that I have to be even more careful with than I normally am, because my mistake could cost a million dollars. And sometimes I’m asked to do things I know are stupid, but the customer wants it anyway. Programming can definitely be boring and downright tedious.
oliver109 said:
pray in these struggles, of course I do, I just find the struggle exhausting tbh.
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That is when you rely on God to do the heavy lifting and not just yourself. If you really struggle with it that much, then I would suggest you look at the Angelic Warfare Confraternity:

https://www.angelicwarfareconfraternity.org
 
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Maybe I am not trusting enough in God, that could be my problem, is there any guarantee that trusting more will bring me salvation? I am just scared of slipping up and dying straight after, it is a fear I will have to deal with for the next 60 odd years.
 
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