Why did god design us so badly?

[crowonsnow]

You’re committing the strawman fallacy by collapsing “the opportunity to sin” to “sin,” and the two are worlds apart.

One cannot experience the opportunity to eat if there is no food. Only if food is present can the opportunity to eat present itself.

 

[seekerz]

What you don’t seem to understand is that sin is an exercise of free will. It is not some entity that enters us against our will and makes us imperfect.

Compare this to say, smoking cigarettes. A person is born nicotine-free (let’s leave aside secondhand smoke for clarity’s sake). When that person chooses to light up a cigarette and inhale, nicotine and various other contaminants enter the system. Someone becomes a nicotine addict by choosing to inhale the stuff, not because they were born that way .

 

[buffalo]

Oh please our livers and kidney’s fail so easily, a flaw in our genetic replication creates cancer, exposure to to much UV causes skin cancer…

Am i the only person who sees a ridiculous amount of design improvements that could be made to a human.

Take a tour of epigenetics and that influence on the body.

 

[crowonsnow]

What you don’t seem to understand is that sin is an exercise of free will. It is not some entity that enters us against our will and makes us imperfect.

You’re the one that said sin attacked the soul and then the body became diseased. Maybe you should clarify your position.

 

[seekerz]

You’re the one that said sin attacked the soul and then the body became diseased. Maybe you should clarify your position.

Analagous to the way nicotine attacks our health when we choose to inhale it. Man chose to disobey God (sin) and so he suffered the negative consequences of that choice. I don’t understand your confusion.

Man’s rebellion against God was the sin (which wrought all manner of negative consequences), it’s not like he was seeded with some inbuilt sin that cause him to rebel.

 

[Abbadon]

Analagous to the way nicotine attacks our health when we choose to inhale it. Man chose to disobey God (sin) and so he suffered the negative consequences of that choice. I don’t understand your confusion.

Man’s rebellion against God was the sin (which wrought all manner of negative consequences), it’s not like he was seeded with some inbuilt sin that cause him to rebel.

I’ve been following your responses. I’m curious. Is your logic based on the assumption that adam and eve were real and the story of creation is a fact?

 

[crowonsnow]

Analagous to the way nicotine attacks our health when we choose to inhale it. Man chose to disobey God (sin) and so he suffered the negative consequences of that choice. I don’t understand your confusion.

Man’s rebellion against God was the sin (which wrought all manner of negative consequences), it’s not like he was seeded with some inbuilt sin that cause him to rebel.

Okay, go ahead and clear up any confusion. Fill in the blank:

Sin is _____________.

 

[davidv]

Okay, go ahead and clear up any confusion. Fill in the blank:

Sin is _____________.

A moral evil.

See this article for more:
newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

 

[buffalo]

Okay, go ahead and clear up any confusion. Fill in the blank:

Sin is _____________.

tunring your back on God.

 

[Spirithound]

But we die without insulin, which many of our bodies suddenly stop producing.

You’ve ignored my previous post, which I quoted for your (though not specifically your) convenience. When will you be happy with the body? When it never breaks down? When you live 1000 years?

If you’re designing a car that never stops why would you give it brakes?

What purpose was there in a designer designing our bodies to fight off disease and cleanse themselves if our bodies and the rest of its creation were perfect?

Or perhaps the assertion is that our immune and “cleansing” systems are part of an update to the prototype made necessary by an alleged “fall.” Before a “fall” they clearly weren’t needed.

God knew what was going to happen, and designed our bodies with the immune systems. Perhaps our immune systems were better before the Fall.

I’m asking where exactly does sin come from if all we have going at the time are perfect bodies, perfect souls and a perfect designer? Which one produced “sin? “ Which one produced the “fall?” Understand?

Sin had to come from one of them, which would mean there never was an original perfection, nor an original perfect design.

There are many different levels on which to be perfect. Only God is perfect on all levels. Our souls are and always have been, less than God, which means that sin is, and always has been a true danger to us.

What you’re saying is that a designer intentionally exposed these souls and bodies to sin, knowing they would all become infected and diseased.

Yes, because there cannot be true love without a true choice.

That doesn’t make much sense. It’s like writing a computer program, and also writing another program that will infect the original program. Part of the purpose of the original program, therefore becomes to be infected by a virus program.

Ah, but you see, we’re not computer programs. Computers only do what they’re told. Therefore, they are incapable of love. We humans can choose, and thus when we choose God, it actually means something. I disagree with your analysis that part of the purpose of the original program is to be infected by the virus, firstly for the reason i just stated, but also because some of us sin more than others. Sin is a choice, there is no choice in computing. A computer cannot choose to run the virus 3000 times, or alternately 4529 times. We, on the other hand, choose to sin. Running the virus (sin), is therefore not a purpose, but an unfortunate side effect of free will.

 

[buffalo]

A glorified body is the promise made to us after the Last Judgement.

 

[crowonsnow]

There are many different levels on which to be perfect. Only God is perfect on all levels. Our souls are and always have been, less than God, which means that sin is, and always has been a true danger to us.

It sounds like you are making a semantic distinction only, a distinction without a difference. But if there are many different levels of perfection, perhaps you can enumerate them, and also point out the lowest level of perfection, that point where in your religion, perfection ends and imperfection begins.

And how exactly does something go from being perfect to being imperfect?

 

[crowonsnow]

A moral evil.

Then original religious perfection must have contained moral evil and/or the seeds of moral evil. If not, whence and how did moral evil originate?

 

[davidv]

Then original religious perfection must have contained moral evil and/or the seeds of moral evil. If not, whence and how did moral evil originate?

In the pride of man. And in his disobedience.

 

[crowonsnow]

God knew what was going to happen, and designed our bodies with the immune systems. Perhaps our immune systems were better before the Fall.

That’s contradictory. You are asserting that a designer, a perfect designer, designed these bodies, these perfect bodies, but also knew they were going to become corrupted? Again, that’s contradictory. If they were susceptible to corruption they were imperfect from the start.

Is this all just what you would call a religious mystery?

 

[crowonsnow]

In the pride of man. And in his disobedience.

Then we agree that according to your religious creation stories, perfect men contained the seeds of moral evil.

This would make sense, as even when your god created angels the same thing happened, and in heaven nonetheless, the highest point of perfection in your religion.

So it appears rather conclusively that moral evil is part of your designer’s plan. Yes?

 

[davidv]

Then we agree that according to your religious creation stories, perfect men contained the seeds of moral evil.

This would make sense, as even when your god created angels the same thing happened, and in heaven nonetheless, the highest point of perfection in your religion.

So it appears rather conclusively that moral evil is part of your designer’s plan. Yes?

Yes and No.

Yes, in that in order for us to truly love, we must be totally free to do so. With that freedom came the ability to not love (evil).

No, in that evil was not an attribute. It is not a “thing”, only an outcome.

 

[buffalo]

Then we agree that according to your religious creation stories, perfect men contained the seeds of moral evil.

This would make sense, as even when your god created angels the same thing happened, and in heaven nonetheless, the highest point of perfection in your religion.

So it appears rather conclusively that moral evil is part of your designer’s plan. Yes?

No - God could have very well created perfect robots.

 

[crowonsnow]

Yes and No.

Yes, in that in order for us to truly love, we must be totally free to do so. With that freedom came the ability to not love (evil).

No, in that evil was not an attribute. It is not a “thing”, only an outcome.

So are you saying something can be perfect even if it has the ability to not give love?

Again, this would make sense from the standpoint of your religion. Your god could be considered perfect even if it possesses the ability to withhold its love, which would mean that your god possesses evil, even though it is perfect.

And I’m not trying to be smart, just logically proceeding from what you are saying and then applying that within your religion.

So then regards the OP, we have less than perfect bodies, religiously speaking, because your god, while still perfect, incorporated evil, the ability to withhold love, within its creations. Our bodies would still be perfect, even though they contained evil, if we had not exercised this god given ability to withhold love.

So even though we have the ability to withhold love that does not make us imperfect, but only if we exercise that god given ability, which we did. Yes?

And the reason we were given this ability to withhold love, evil, is that without it we wouldn’t really be able to love and to know what love is.

Is that it?

And so when we get our new perfect bodies, they will still contain this evil.

So I think I understand what you are saying.

But didn’t we just make a great big circle insofar as your soteriology and entire religion is concerned? For if perfection necessarily contains evil, even after an alleged final judgment where the good and bad are separated once and for all, what prevents evil from happening again and all those reglorified perfect bodies from becoming imperfect again?

 

[Lance]

If you are such a great designer why don’t you start with something simple, like design a car that will last 70 years with no more maintenance than most people give their bodies? Maybe you could design a computer operating system that would work as well and last as long as our bodies.