Why did god design us so badly?

[fhansen]

So this “fall” didn’t really change anything about our bodies? They’re the same in your view?

No, I believe that corruption and physical death, along with spiritual death-separation from God-occurred at the fall by man choosing to reject Gods authority, thereby rejecting God. This coincides with CC teaching-that the world we live in now is not Gods’ original plan (He foreknew but didn’t will the fall) and that any perfection in man, physical or spiritual, is due to Gods’ grace, but our choice.

He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent. – Saint Augustine

 

[Abbadon]

I am in. I don’t want to PM. There are others who will benefit from our exchanges.

Okay I’m going to call it Abbadon vs The Buffalo… And i’ll just post it in this forum set thinger…

 

[The_Barbarian]

Barbarian observes that nature was a pretty good way for God to make us.

Or are you distinguishing between a designer designing nature and a designer designing human bodies?

I accept that God is the Creator, not some demiurge designer. Humans design because they are limited creatures. God creates.
Engineers are starting to copy from His methods, as they have learned that evolutionary processes are often better than design for complex problems.

Genetic algorithms use random mutation and natural selection to solve engineering problems that have so far been impossible for design to solve.

Turns out that God knew what He was doing, after all.

 

[planter654]

By youth i obviously mean my relative youth. 7 - 10… In the future perhaps when i’m over the 25% mark of age so over 40 i will say in my pre teen years?

Geeez sorry for getting a gramatical error from a retardedly complicated language like english…

I never meant to imply i was ridiculously wise, I’m just saying from a design point of view, the human form is a poor creation for someone who is all powerfull…

In the very beginning of creation to Adam and Eve… God said: If you eat from the tree of good and evil “you will surley die”! God is not a liar, but our creator and it is his Kingdom! God’s laws and commandments were disobeyed by Adam and Eve. God forces no one to love him or obey him for that would not be true Love!

They would have “lived eternally” but they choose to disobey God. The command God gave them was a blessing to them for their own protection to dwell eternally with him in his Kingdom, but God spoke the truth and it became a curse to them, “You will surley die” if you do!

All that God created was very, very good! God is Holy and what does sin and Holiness have in common? Nothing! God is All Holy thereforth he does “not join himself” with sin for he would “not” be all Holy. God did not even want them to “know that there was such a thing as evil” for all that God gives us is very good! God gave them all that was good, spoke the truth for God is “All Truth”… if you do… “you will surley die”!

Like a father tells his children whom he loves dearly. Do not play in the streets! A father gives a commandment that is good, but if we choose not to obey or believe that our Father speaks the truth, then we choose to play in traffic and disobey our Father. We get hurt or killed, who’s fault is it? Can we say our Father’s commandedment was not good? NO, for we choose to disobey our Father, deciding to play in traffic! God has given us the grace and “wisdom” to know good and evil, right and wrong.

God Bless

 

[crowonsnow]

Like a father tells his children whom he loves dearly. Do not play in the streets! A father gives a commandment that is good, but if we choose not to obey or believe that our Father speaks the truth, then we choose to play in traffic and disobey our Father. We get hurt or killed, who’s fault is it? Can we say our Father’s commandedment was not good? NO, for we choose to disobey our Father, deciding to play in traffic! God has given us the grace and “wisdom” to know good and evil, right and wrong.

Adam and Eve must have been like toddlers then? Why would a parent allow a toddler to play in the street unsupervised? That’s a very weak analogy.

Why would a parent knowingly let a child get run over by a car? I thought this only happened after “the fall.” But you are saying it happened before “the fall,” that it actually caused “the fall.”

 

[Abbadon]

Barbarian observes that nature was a pretty good way for God to make us.

I accept that God is the Creator, not some demiurge designer. Humans design because they are limited creatures. God creates.
Engineers are starting to copy from His methods, as they have learned that evolutionary processes are often better than design for complex problems.

Genetic algorithms use random mutation and natural selection to solve engineering problems that have so far been impossible for design to solve.

Turns out that God knew what He was doing, after all.

Pity your holy text or any other holy text failed to mention an evolutionary process. Stop attributing the attributes of nature to god…

Humans create to… And there creations for their capacity is amazing…

 

[da_nolo]

Now before i begin this thread i can’t promise that i will be responding to everything, just the interesting ones. I’m sorry i just don’t have enough time.

I had asked previously what other evidence there was for the existence of god? I read some links and i still don’t see it i see nature and natural answers but no real need for a higher power. (Let alone the question of which higher power, if i did see a higher power, all these arguments no more support the monothiestic god than it does the other creator god’s Odin, Ra’s father and mother (sky and earth can’t remeber the names) or say the rainbow serpent…)

But there is another problem with the argument from design. As a designer i could have designed at least humanity alot better. DNA is a rather poor replicator, bad mutations could be removed. Regeneration of cells could have been extended to at least 1000 years (a species that lives more makes more decisions based on the long run, and would be wiser). I would have made my children UV resistant, Perpahs even the ability to change the spectram of radiation visible. Harder skin so on so forth. Overall alot better design…

There would and still could be suffering both physical and emotional pain, so god not fear his creations not suffering,

I have heard the reply we are a fallen perfection. Just how far did we fall?

Anyway the point is. IF this creation is designed, it is a poor design and would in no way win a design award in a relative field of being creation. I argue that I given the resources and budget of a god could do a much better job.

Now i would love to hear your thoughts…

whos saying we are a poor design? who says you have any right to question our Lord? I say its you falling away from God and not understanding ones own ability in actions and thoughts. Thats what it sounds like…though we currently are not perfect…doesnt mean we cant nor wont be. Heaven is perfection, and so inorder to be in heaven, we would be perfect…see that matching here?

 

[The_Barbarian]

Pity your holy text or any other holy text failed to mention an evolutionary process.

Failed to mention protons, too. Guess why. There are many things that are true, that aren’t in Scripture. It’s about God and man, and our relationship.

Stop attributing the attributes of nature to god…

Sorry. Nature is the way He does most things in this world. Don’t like it? Take it up with Him.

 

[Hastrman]

Pity your holy text or any other holy text failed to mention an evolutionary process.

Dine Bahane mentions one. So do the Emergence stories of every Pueblo people.

It can also be argued that there’s an evolutionary idea in Greek, Hindu, and Zoroastrian thought.

The Avestas and Vedas count as holy texts where I come from, Kemosabe.

 

[Abbadon]

Dine Bahane mentions one. So do the Emergence stories of every Pueblo people.

It can also be argued that there’s an evolutionary idea in Greek, Hindu, and Zoroastrian thought.

The Avestas and Vedas count as holy texts where I come from, Kemosabe.

Avestas and Vedas - sound so familiar why…

really those speak of some evolutionary concept i’ll have to check this out… Yea greek philosephy i have heard of it before but they were rather ahead in ideas for there time

to bad the abrahamic releigions god didnt mention it to them…

 

[planter654]

Adam and Eve must have been like toddlers then? Why would a parent allow a toddler to play in the street unsupervised? That’s a very weak analogy.

Why would a parent knowingly let a child get run over by a car? I thought this only happened after “the fall.” But you are saying it happened before “the fall,” that it actually caused “the fall.”

No! Adam and Eve were not toddlers by no means, God called them man and women. God gave them the wisdom to know right from wrong. God told them “they would surly die” if they did.God gave them free will, their right to choose. No parent knowingly as you have stated would let toddlers play in traffic, please, that is simply common sense. Yes, it was a weak analogy, but I am sure you have the wisdom to know what I was trying to say.

We have been giving the wisdom and all have heard of God. Each soul God develops in his or her own time. The saying those who have been giving much, much they will answer to. Those who have been giving little, less will be asked.

You are on this web site so you have heard and are seeking. God’s promise before he returns is that, he will circumzise every heart. All will know him, they will need no one to teach them, before the great and terrible day of the Lord. God has saved us over and over since the day of creation.

God has given freely to all their free will to choose. The human wisdom also to believe in faith, obey, fallow, accept or not accept the word of God, that is your free will to do so. God gives us the example of Adam and Eve, Noe, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, All the Holy Prophets,Moses, King David, John the Baptist and Jesus Christ. God’s Blessings, Curses, His wrath, God is not a Liar etc.

Remember God also gives us the choices.
Yes, God has given us free will and the human wisdom to know him, but remember God is a living God, he is not the God of the dead. But God gives us the choices also, with our free will and forces no one to go against their free will given to choose… good over evil. We do know what is good and what is evil do we not?

Serve God our Father or Lucifer to be our Father the choice is yours.

God Bless

 

[planter654]

God did not design us so badly but we have all come from the one seed of Adam and Eve who had fallen through their own choices committing sin. God told them “they would surly die” if they disobeyed and ate from the tree of good and evil. It was their choice and God is not a Liar, they found that out! Other wise we would all be living eternally with God. God is all Holy and to stay All HOLY, we cannot join with sin. For we would be never hot nor cold but lukewarm. A house divided cannot stand!

God is our creator and created us in his image. God gave us all good even free will to choose.

God created all that was good. God is not a foolish God he does not CHANGE. God is the same today as yesterday.

But we are rebellious children, thinking we are greater than our creator who created us. We thought we could do better with the goodness God gave us.

God’s great plan of salvation sent his only son Jesus Christ who was not sin, but All Holy and laid down his life for us, this is all good and righteousness in the eyes of God. Otherwise where would we be all going…to hell for eternity. Would we not? God saves us again. Believe me Lucifer knows God and that he exists.

God is not a liar. Now through Jesus Christ all who repent, accept, believe, obey our Father will live eternally. Is this not all goodness God has given us, that which we have not earned or could ever earn or pay the debts of our sins because the price was to high! We who believe come from the seed of Abraham, God’s promised fufilled. Jesus Christ died “once and for ALL” it is finished. God in all his goodness does not delay in his coming, but long in patience waiting that not “one soul” is lost. Before the great and terrible day when God returns.

So now the goodness of the Lord through Jesus Christ we all belong to God whether we believe or not believe are in God’s hands! For God accept Jesus Christ Holy unblemished gift and has reconcilled himself to us. God, now will have the final judgement for each one of us whether we go to hell eternally or dwell with him in His Kingdom eternally. Thanks be to God for all his goodness given unto us.

God created all that was Good. But we did not obey or listen or accept his word as truth.

Look at this question even…Why did god design us so badly? My answer to this question…Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do!
God Bless

 

[crowonsnow]

Yes, it was a weak analogy, but I am sure you have the wisdom to know what I was trying to say.

Yes, I know what you are trying to say. But you are not seeing the obvious contradictions when you make your claims.

Simply stated, if Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil then evil was already around. No need for a fall, no need for our bodies to become infirmed. There was already evil in this alleged place called heaven itself. That’s where this Lucifer, this serpent in this garden, came from.

So the whole idea of “a fall” is at best just another religious story.

 

[crowonsnow]

Barbarian observes that nature was a pretty good way for God to make us.

I accept that God is the Creator, not some demiurge designer. Humans design because they are limited creatures. God creates.
Engineers are starting to copy from His methods, as they have learned that evolutionary processes are often better than design for complex problems.

Genetic algorithms use random mutation and natural selection to solve engineering problems that have so far been impossible for design to solve.

Turns out that God knew what He was doing, after all.

Well, what prevents this god from having been evolved same as us?

 

[planter654]

Yes, I know what you are trying to say. But you are not seeing the obvious contradictions when you make your claims.

Simply stated, if Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil then evil was already around. No need for a fall, no need for our bodies to become infirmed. There was already evil in this alleged place called heaven itself. That’s where this Lucifer, this serpent in this garden, came from.

So the whole idea of “a fall” is at best just another religious story.

No contradictions because what Father or Mother even when our children get older want them to do what is right or good and pray for them, wanting all that is good for them to be given.

But the important point is that they Adam and Eve disobeyed did not believe God’s word. They would not have become infirmed if they did not disobey God, but choose to do other wise. God told them they would “surely die” if they did so, but they did not believe or obey God.

No! Lucifier was not evil when God created him, but choose to become greater than the creator who created him. Lucifier choose to become a liar and was jealous of God who was worshipped and adorned by all his creations. Lucifier wanted to be like God and have his own Kingdom and no authority over him.

No! it is not just another religious story for here we are in a world God hates for he knows the world is full of evil. That is why God who is all good who gives all that is good sent his only son to pay the debt of our sins. God is our Father who loves us dearly, he knows there is a hell eternally!

God Bless

 

[The_Barbarian]

Well, what prevents this god from having been evolved same as us?

Being God. We evolved because we are part of natural creation.

And He isn’t.

 

[crowonsnow]

No! Lucifier was not evil when God created him, but choose to become greater than the creator who created him. Lucifier choose to become a liar and was jealous of God who was worshipped and adorned by all his creations. Lucifier wanted to be like God and have his own Kingdom and no authority over him.

Lucifer did this in heaven. So there was obviously evil in heaven. If there was evil in heaven, there was no fall for men. Any fall had already ocurred in heaven.

 

[crowonsnow]

Being God. We evolved because we are part of natural creation.

And He isn’t.

What makes this particular god so special that it can’t have evolved? How would having evolved, even if it isn’t part of natural creation, make it less than what it is?

I mean if it chose to use evolution to make people, it obviously doesn’t have anything against it, so by what logic would it be prevented from having the same qualities? Aren’t people supposedly made in its image and likeness?

I don’t see how being anti evolution wrt the god can be reasonably defended, especially for someone like yourself who appears to be a very staunch defender of evolution.

 

[BlaineTog]

What makes this particular god so special that it can’t have evolved?

If he had evolved, he wouldn’t be God. He simply wouldn’t fit the definition.

 

[fhansen]

What makes this particular god so special that it can’t have evolved? How would having evolved, even if it isn’t part of natural creation, make it less than what it is?

I mean if it chose to use evolution to make people, it obviously doesn’t have anything against it, so by what logic would it be prevented from having the same qualities? Aren’t people supposedly made in its image and likeness?

I don’t see how being anti evolution wrt the god can be reasonably defended, especially for someone like yourself who appears to be a very staunch defender of evolution.

If I understand where you’re going with this then I would ask: why would it make sense for a mind, whether ours or Gods, to be the product of randomness or non-order/non-design or in any case of non-mind? How could non-mind be superior to mind? Even in our personal worlds, wherever one finds order they find a mind creating that order. And if we say we do recognize mind behind the evolutionary process or behind whatever we think the origins of the universe consist of then we’ve simply identified the mind of God anyway. I don’t know why it took me so long to get this but while we may be -or feel- out of sync with nature, maybe even ashamed of ourselves if we’re honest, God isn’t-He would only dislike any unnatural parts of us-and that’s all sin is. And why would a creator have to be like His creation in every way? At some point creators, whether God or us, stand above and apart from their creations-by virtue of the fact that they are, after all, the creator.