Why did Jesus die on the cross?

[John_Hiner]

Having removed man from the flow of Trinitarian love – from grace – Original Sin had other consequences for man: the contradiction between man’s will and his nature fractured man within himself. Man lost his ability to act with integrity. Because of this, even man’s attempts to love God became diffuse and halfhearted. This had broad ramifications: **While even the best human effort could not return a man to grace, most men did attempt the best. **Most men’s choices diverged more and more from God’s will. The separation of man’s will from God’s – sin – grew and spread, and with it: suffering.

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

In the effort to edit down my last post to fit the limit, I inadvertently deleted the word “not” from the sentence highlighted above. It should read:

While even the best human effort could not return a man to grace, most men did **not **attempt the best.

Sorry for any confusion.

Pax Christi vobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus died for my sins, because He loves me THAT much. He died for you too, for the same reason.

Hi
So , you wanted to kill JesusYeshuaIssa for your sins; and the Jews wanted to kill him to prove that Jesus was a false prophet, a sort of a collaboration. Please side with Jesus and don’t side with his enemies, and let him die naturally, peacefully and respectfully in India.
Catholics! please don’t convert; others are welcome if they are convinced at heart, no compulsion.
Thanks

The first and primary source on “Jesus did not die on Cross” and later died naturally in Sirinagar, Kashmir, India is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1825-1908.

 

[jimmy85]

Hundrets of eye witneses of Jesus and diciples of him die in martyrdom, they were killed only because they believed in Jesus as God. otherwise the romans would have spared their lifes. However they died because they truly believed what they saw.

 

[Mjae]

Hi
So , you wanted to kill JesusYeshuaIssa for your sins; and the Jews wanted to kill him to prove that Jesus was a false prophet, a sort of a collaboration. Please side with Jesus and don’t side with his enemies, and let him die naturally, peacefully and respectfully in India.

Hmmm. You misunderstand. Man does not decide Jesus must die. Only God can redeem man for man’s disobedience to God. Because of His love for His creation, God chose to redeem man. It pleases Him to let man share in His Joy. Not to worry about Jesus’ death. He is outside of time, and has already defeated evil.

 

[paarsurrey]

sins

Hi
Sins have no , in my view, direct or indirect relationship with survival of Jesus. Both are separate issues, and must be understood separately.
Jesus is on record having accepted Jonah a true ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH, in a way Jesus approved and authenticated Jonah’s thought on sins, when Jonah prayed in the belly of fish and repented and resolved not to commit it again, GodAllahYHWH forgave him. This is the combined philosophy of Jonah and Jesus, inherent in the Sign of Jonah that Jesus wanted to show to the Jews of his times. We have to accept what Jesus told.
I love Jesus and Mary.
Thanks

I understand that NTBible does not come from Jesus; it is mostly the working of Church.

 

[Mjae]

I’m afraid I don’t understand your statement. Sin has EVERYTHING to do with why Jesus died on the cross, since the purpose of God taking human form was to offer Himself to Himself to redeem us from sin.

 

[paarsurrey]

I’m afraid I don’t understand your statement. Sin has EVERYTHING to do with why Jesus died on the cross, since the purpose of God taking human form was to offer Himself to Himself to redeem us from sin.

Hi
Since that never happened i.e Jesus did not die on Cross and by the grace of God he lived and later died a natural death according to one tradition at the age of 120 years. We there have to concede that the purpose of redemption of sins is only a misconception. This is what I believe and seems logical to me, Catholics may believe otherwise, no compulsion.
Thanks

 

[Zooey]

We are justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The Protestant heresy is that faith is “mere.” That somehow we must “merely” have faith. Well, faith is not “mere.” Faith does not “merely” mean that I do not argue against what Christ preaches, or that I am passive in my beliefs. Faith is *active *and moves people to do extraordinary things.

In fairness, not all of us non-Catholic Christians believe that faith is “mere”. You paint with too broad a brush.

Hi
So , you wanted to kill JesusYeshuaIssa for your sins; and the Jews wanted to kill him to prove that Jesus was a false prophet, a sort of a collaboration. Please side with Jesus and don’t side with his enemies, and let him die naturally, peacefully and respectfully in India.

:nope: No, no, you **entirely **misunderstand the death & deny the resurrection. Jesus is God, & God chooses to die for us. We “side w/Jesus”, as you put it, by being grateful for His sacrifice of Himself.
To die in India? Saying that is one more wound on His body. Everytime you say that, you:crying: crucify Christ over again. You cause Him agonizing pain by refusing to follow Him!! You are making Him suffer, by saying these words…:crying:

Hmmm. You misunderstand. Man does not decide Jesus must die. Only God can redeem man for man’s disobedience to God. Because of His love for His creation, God chose to redeem man. It pleases Him to let man share in His Joy. Not to worry about Jesus’ death. He is outside of time, and has already defeated evil.

I’m afraid I don’t understand your statement. Sin has EVERYTHING to do with why Jesus died on the cross, since the purpose of God taking human form was to offer Himself to Himself to redeem us from sin.

 

[Mjae]

Paarsurrey, your beliefs are as strange to me as mine I am sure are to you. May the Holy Spirit guide you on your search for Truth.:heaven:

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
The Why in “Why did Jesus die on the cross?” is not valid, in my opinion as Jesus did not die on Cross.
Thanks

 

[GIMJ]

Hi
The Why in “Why did Jesus die on the cross?” is not valid, in my opinion as Jesus did not die on Cross.
Thanks

I’m conducting a survey so just follow the link below to participate:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2397215#post2397215

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I get extremely disappointed when I get an email saying someone has replied to an interesting thread, and it ends up being paarsurey spreading his Islamist nonsense??

 

[b_justb]

Hi
So , you wanted to kill JesusYeshuaIssa for your sins; and the Jews wanted to kill him to prove that Jesus was a false prophet, a sort of a collaboration. Please side with Jesus and don’t side with his enemies, and let him die naturally, peacefully and respectfully in India.
Catholics! please don’t convert; others are welcome if they are convinced at heart, no compulsion.
Thanks

The first and primary source on “Jesus did not die on Cross” and later died naturally in Sirinagar, Kashmir, India is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1825-1908.

paarsurrey, Be careful … your assertion that Jews and Christians are the enemies of Jesus most likely wont be taken too keenly by many readers, myself included. Hold to your views all you wish, but I think you’re crossing a line here that you should not.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey, Be careful … your assertion that Jews and Christians are the enemies of Jesus most likely wont be taken too keenly by many readers, myself included. Hold to your views all you wish, but I think you’re crossing a line here that you should not.

Hi
Sorry, I din not mean it actually. I said it in the course of reasoning only . Jewish clergy of the time of Jesus were the only enemies of Jesus. Christians of all denominations,Catholics included love him as do the Muslims. I apologize
Thanks

 

[GIMJ]

Hi
Sorry, I din not mean it actually. I said it in the course of reasoning only . Jewish clergy of the time of Jesus were the only enemies of Jesus. Christians of all denominations,Catholics included love him as do the Muslims. I apologize
Thanks

Yeah, whenever an Islamist gets caught in his lie he “din not mean it actually”!! And since when exactly has paarsurrey been known to “reason”???

Of course, we KNOW how much the Islamists “love” Jesus…by profaning him and murdering his followers for the sake of world domination.

At least we’ve got an Islamist on record apologizing to us infidels! That’s something you don’t see every day, now do you?

 

[b_justb]

Hi
Sorry, I din not mean it actually. I said it in the course of reasoning only . Jewish clergy of the time of Jesus were the only enemies of Jesus. Christians of all denominations,Catholics included love him as do the Muslims. I apologize
Thanks

Let us use reasoning then, and I reason like a Catholic; we believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross; He suffered, died and was buried. Here is what Catholic apologists have said about people that deny Jesus’ real crucifixion, as opposed to the idea that he merely appeared to be crucified and didn’t really die at Golgotha (which is exactly what you believe and say continuously here on these forums):

Docetism (Docetae) is a heresy from the times of the first Apostles.Their name is derived from dokesis, “appearance” or “semblance”, because they taught that Christ only “appeared” or "seemed to be a man, to have been born, to have lived and suffered. Some denied the reality of Christ’s human nature altogether, some only the reality of His human body or of His birth or death. Docetism is not properly a Christian heresy at all, as it did not arise in the Church from the misundertanding of a dogma by the faithful, but rather came from without. Gnostics starting from the principle of antagonism between matter and spirit, and making all salvation consist in becoming free from the bondage of matter and returning as pure spirit to the Supreme Spirit, could not possibly accept the sentence, “the Word was made flesh”, in a literal sense. Other Docetians believed in a real, yet not human “sidereal” body; others again accepting the body but not the reality of the birth from a woman, or the reality of the passion and death on the cross. Christ only seemed to suffer, either because He ingeniously and miraculously substituted someone else to bear the pain, or because the occurence on Calvary was a visual deception.

So your ideas that Christ only appeared to suffer and die is not a new one at all. The Church has said outright that it is lie. Now let’s see what the Church says we do with people that spread this lie, shall we?

From the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)

Whosoever shall not recognize that the Word of God suffered in the flesh, that he was crucified in the flesh, and that likewise in that same flesh he tasted death and that he is become the first-begotten of the dead, for, as he is God, he is the life and it is he that giveth life: let him be anathema.

And what does anathema mean?

A formal ecclesiastical ban, curse, or excommunication.

Etymology: Late Latin anathema, doomed offering, accursed thing, from Greek, from anatithenai, anathe-, to dedicate : ana-, ana- + tithenai, to put; see dhē- in Indo-European roots.

 

[paarsurrey]

So your ideas that Christ only appeared to suffer and die is not a new one at all.

Hi
I never said that I have propounded a new idea that Jesus did not die on Cross. I only say that , to me, it is a reality. If others also believed what I say, that strenghtens my belief and I don’t mind that at all.
Thanks

The problem here with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for Himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational/reasonable/logical questions, of course we are not discussing here pure Mathematics or Physics, and we are mostly concerned with the every day moral, Spiritual and religious issues, and a religious worthwhile book must resolve such issues, if it is truthful to its purpose. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try filling the void by putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is hence left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise.

 

[paarsurrey]

Let us use reasoning then, and I reason like a Catholic;

Hi
The Catholic don’t reason; they say that it is a mystery, just to conceal the reality. If Catholic use reason they would know that Jesus himself denied this mystery, that is why he pegged this incidence with Sign of Jonah. Jonah did have tribulations in the belly of the fish, nevertheless, he entered the belly of the fish alive, he remained alive in the belly of the fish, he got out from the belly of the fish alive.If Jesus had shown this sign as he promised to Jews then he must be alive:
When he was layed in the tomb he must be alive.
He must remanin alive in the tomb.
He must come out alive in the tomb.
Jonah did not ascend to skies after the incident, so must not Jesus ascend to skies.
Jonah went to his people who accepted him when he went to them, so must Jesus go to his Jewish brethren, the lost ten tribes of the Israel.
There is no similarity between a **live person **and a dead person. If Catholic believe that Jesus died on the Cross; that only proves that Jesus was a lesser Prophet than Jonah; while Jesus himself claimed that he was greater than Jonah, and I would like to believe in Jesus rather than the Catholics. I love Jesus and Mary.
I respect your faith; but I would form my own opinion.
Thanks

 

[Milliardo]

Hi
The Catholic don’t reason; they say that it is a mystery, just to conceal the reality. If Catholic use reason they would know that Jesus himself denied this mystery, that is why he pegged this incidence with Sign of Jonah. Jonah did have tribulations in the belly of the fish, nevertheless, he entered the belly of the fish alive, he remained alive in the belly of the fish, he got out from the belly of the fish alive.If Jesus had shown this sign as he promised to Jews then he must be alive:
When he was layed in the tomb he must be alive.
He must remanin alive in the tomb.
He must come out alive in the tomb.
Jonah did not ascend to skies after the incident, so must not Jesus ascend to skies.
Jonah went to his people who accepted him when he went to them, so must Jesus go to his Jewish brethren, the lost ten tribes of the Israel.
There is no similarity between a **live person **and a dead person. If Catholic believe that Jesus died on the Cross; that only proves that Jesus was a lesser Prophet than Jonah; while Jesus himself claimed that he was greater than Jonah, and I would like to believe in Jesus rather than the Catholics. I love Jesus and Mary.
I respect your faith; but I would form my own opinion.
Thanks

In fact, Jesus came out alive from the tomb in His resurrection, so in there we can already see how it parallels with that of Jonah. In a way, we can say that He entered the tomb alive, as we should remember what He said in John 11–that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but shall live. If this is true for those who believe in Him, then how much more for Himself?

 

[John_Hiner]

Hi
The Catholic don’t reason; they say that it is a mystery, just to conceal the reality. If Catholic use reason they would know that Jesus himself denied this mystery, that is why he pegged this incidence with Sign of Jonah. Jonah did have tribulations in the belly of the fish, nevertheless, he entered the belly of the fish alive, he remained alive in the belly of the fish, he got out from the belly of the fish alive.If Jesus had shown this sign as he promised to Jews then he must be alive:
When he was layed in the tomb he must be alive.
He must remanin alive in the tomb.
He must come out alive in the tomb.
Jonah did not ascend to skies after the incident, so must not Jesus ascend to skies.
Jonah went to his people who accepted him when he went to them, so must Jesus go to his Jewish brethren, the lost ten tribes of the Israel.
There is no similarity between a **live person **and a dead person. If Catholic believe that Jesus died on the Cross; that only proves that Jesus was a lesser Prophet than Jonah; while Jesus himself claimed that he was greater than Jonah, and I would like to believe in Jesus rather than the Catholics. I love Jesus and Mary.
I respect your faith; but I would form my own opinion.
Thanks

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear “paarsurrey”:

Can you point me to any historical accounts of persons surviving crucifixion by Roman executioners? I have assumed that the Romans were well known for their efficiency in such things. I have also taken it as a scientifically reliable conclusion that Jesus was dead upon the Cross, since when pierced with a spear, blood and “water” flowed from His side. I take this to mean that His blood was not flowing and that lymph or other clear fluid was draining from His upper torso.

I acknowledge that you may dispute this factual account of Jesus’ specific execution; so, I ask, do you have historical evidence of other executions where the Romans failed to kill their victims?

Roman failure seems especially unlikely to me in Jesus’ specific case, since the report is that only three people were being crucified on that occasion. Why should I doubt that the executioners did their job properly?

I have read that in the “games” used to honor Roman dead, a slave dressed as Hermes would touch a fallen gladiator with a hot metal rod, disguised as the ‘staff of Hermes.” In the “theology” of the games this symbolized the claiming of the dead for the underworld. In the practical bent of the Romans, the hot metal rod tested to see if the gladiator was dead or faking, so that he not escape from the arena by trick. This account of Roman efficiency suggests to me that it is unlikely that military executions would be less meticulous. (See e.g., “The Experience”.) (In fact the account of Jesus’ execution specifically mentions that death was confirmed, by piercing Him with a spear (Jn 19:33-34). It also says that Pilate received a report that Jesus’ death had been accomplished (Mk 15:44-45).)

Why should one doubt that Pilate was able to accomplish the execution of a man at the center of a sensitive political situation, which could escalate into an uprising? Reason applied to my understanding of Roman history suggests ruthless efficiency rather than ineptitude.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[paarsurrey]

Dear “paarsurrey”:
Can you point me to any historical accounts of persons surviving crucifixion by Roman executioners? I have assumed that the Romans were well known for their efficiency in such things. I have also taken it as a scientifically reliable conclusion that Jesus was dead upon the Cross, since when pierced with a spear, blood and “water” flowed from His side. I take this to mean that His blood was not flowing and that lymph or other clear fluid was draining from His upper torso.
I acknowledge that you may dispute this factual account of Jesus’ specific execution; so, I ask, do you have historical evidence of other executions where the Romans failed to kill their victims?
Roman failure seems especially unlikely to me in Jesus’ specific case, since the report is that only three people were being crucified on that occasion. Why should I doubt that the executioners did their job properly?
I have read that in the “games” used to honor Roman dead, a slave dressed as Hermes would touch a fallen gladiator with a hot metal rod, disguised as the ‘staff of Hermes.” In the “theology” of the games this symbolized the claiming of the dead for the underworld. In the practical bent of the Romans, the hot metal rod tested to see if the gladiator was dead or faking, so that he not escape from the arena by trick.
Why should one doubt that Pilate was able to accomplish the execution of a man at the center of a sensitive political situation, which could escalate into an uprising? Reason applied to my understanding of Roman history suggests ruthless efficiency rather than ineptitude.

Hi
Please remember following points in this connection:

1. The Romans were after all human beings, the might err.
2. Pilate’s wife saw a dream and forbade Pilate of killing Jesus. Was this from God or from devil? Naturally, it was from GodAllahYHWH, so it shows that GodAllahYHWH wanted to save Jesus’ life.
3. Though Pilate was not that courageous to set Jesus free openly but underhand he did all he could to save Jesus’ life.

One could see a secret hand of GodAllahYHWH in all the events related to Jesus’ crucifixion working to save him from death. GodAllahYHWH always helps his ProphetsMessengers against all odds, so it happened.
Thanks