Why did Jesus entrust the care of Mary to John?

[rev_kevin]

Then why did you say here it was strange, and I was condoning pre-marital sex then? I don’t get it? If an angel appeared to me and told me I was GOING to have a Son I would not say how. Why would I? I would assume as everyone else that I would get pregnant on my honeymoon.

But Mary asked how am I going to get pregnant. Why would she say that, as I stated before unless she intended to state pure. The angel did not say you ARE with Child she said you will conceive a Child. When Mary asked how, the angel knew exactly why she asked it, and then answered by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Now Mary did not say HUH? Or WHY? SHe knew why, and so did the Angel that is why she got the Right answer, She knew then she was able to keep her vow to God. Because if she had not made a vow to God she would have no reason to ask How am I going to get pregnant. Which indeed shows she had all intention to keep that vow to God. Or she would have said, what about my vow to God, Do I not need to keep it now, but she knew she was still to keep that vow to God, and that is how God made that promise she made to him become possible for her.

Now if she had not made this vow, would she not have said, But why not by my husband, But she did not make that statement did she.

She said I am a handmaid of the Lord let him do with me as he pleases. So she understood did she not, or why make such a statement.

Ok it stands to reason that Mary would ask “How can this be, I’m a virgin.” Remember she was confused and disturbed and tried to think what the angel could mean. So not thinking with a clear head It would be likely that she would ask that kind of question. See when someone is confused and disturbed they don’t think in a normal way. I really don’t think Mary would say being in a confused and disturbed way, “Really, me and Joseph, oh goodie goodie.” I think the normal reaction in that state of mind would be what she said.

 

[joe370]

rev kevin;7148318]Ok it stands to reason that Mary would ask “How can this be, I’m a virgin.” Remember she was confused and disturbed and tried to think what the angel could mean.

Yes, she was greatly troubled when the angel addressed her as full of grace; following so far.

So not thinking with a clear head It would be likely that she would ask that kind of question.

That certainly cannot be proven but it is a possible theory.

See when someone is confused and disturbed they don’t think in a normal way. I really don’t think Mary would say being in a confused and disturbed way, “Really, me and Joseph, oh goodie goodie.” I think the normal reaction in that state of mind would be what she said.

So, she lost all since of reality? I thought about it…I really did, but the only logical conclusion, to me anyway, is that Mary would have naturally assumed the angel was referring to a child between her and her betrothed husband. That was a good theory though; very original.

The beauty of belonging to the CC is that we believe that all truth can be found in the CC, thanks to the perpetual guidance of the HS, and, as far as I can tell, all PC’s claim that infallible truth cannot be determine definitively, at least this is what they say about the CC so it must be true about all the other churches as well. You basically admitted this to be fact. Even if I am not sure about something, I find comfort in believing that Jesus founded a church and endowed His church with the ever presence of the spirit of truth until the end of time, which is why we can call Jesus’ church the pillar and foundation of truth. As a former non-Catholic, no one church would ever claim to be teaching infallibly, and rightfully so if their church was not the church of Matthew 16, John 14 and 16, so how could I know that I could trust their doctrinal guidance???

When posting, I really try hard to remove my myopic glasses and see things from the polar perspective, as I did with you, but your explanation does not seem that persuasive, and even if you were right, by whose authority do you teach? When I share what I believe to be truth, with others, those truths must always align with the teachings of the CC founded by Jesus, in my opinion. With you, (and all sola scriptura advocates) - it appears that you are your own church, for the simple fact that you said that you defer to NO church for doctrinal guidance, but the HS was not sent to you (your church) - on Pentecost, so why should I trust your doctrinal opinions, and I am asking with the utmost respect my friend? I certainly wouldn’t expect anyone to defer to me , when it comes to binding and loosing, and making the final decisions regarding doctrinal truth, and that is not an inference suggesting that you do.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think alot of American forms of Christianity just do not recognize the need for celibacy or virginity, or that people can have a particular mission to fulfill without sex.

The sensitivity and value is not there, as well as having no experience in being in authentic relationships with priests or religious to understand them.

But Christ spoke of marriage…there are some that are born that way, others made that way who do not marry, and then there are those who are made that way for the Kingdom…

The fact that Mary’s perpetual virginity and her mission is still not understood and being argued 2,000 years later shows the need we humans have to have an institution founded by Christ to keep us united. The Orthodox leadership in a few circles right now are talking about re-uniting with Rome.

I believe when the Orthodox and Latin rites are reunited, and the differences between the two re-defined and able to articulate and synthesize the two, there will be a restoration of Christian unity in general.

 

[jpaul1953]

Well, He could have simply asked John to see to it that she was received into the care of His siblings. My limited understanding of Jewish culture of the time, that might have been the more typical request, ISTM.

Jon

Dear Jon,

What are you talking about. It always appears to me that whenever a non-Catholic wants to deny the way Catholics view something, they always try to make the Bible say what they want. They always grasp for straws. Just like you 're doing.

Remember, you must find a way to deny our teachings, if not you must believe in our teachings. It’s all according to which way you want it.

Joe

 

[JonNC]

Dear Jon,

What are you talking about. It always appears to me that whenever a non-Catholic wants to deny the way Catholics view something, they always try to make the Bible say what they want. They always grasp for straws. Just like you 're doing.

Joe

Hi Joe,
I was responding to this post:

Originally Posted by Todd520
John 19 does not confirm anything about the number of children Mary had.

Facts to contend with:

• Mary was loved by all
• Mary had an extended family
• John was the only male disciple at the foot of the cross
• all other male disciples had deserted Christ even his cousins or ‘brothers’

Logic to contend with:

• Since anyone who knew Mary loved her as their own mother, and she had extended family, there was no need to fear for her care.
• Jesus thinking of Mary while dying on the cross is an example of pure selfless love, something we should strive to emulate.
• John was the most noble, and only disciple to stand by Jesus. Who else could work for this act of love.

Net, this act by Jesus proves his love for Mary, not the number of siblings.

And I was providing a dispute of the notion (which I believe false) that Christ chose John because His siblings were cowards. I contend that Christ chose John precisely because He had no siblings in which to entrust His mother.

Remember, you must find a way to deny our teachings, if not you must believe in our teachings. It’s all according to which way you want it.

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but since I believe St. Mary was ever-virgin, and the Lutheran confessions imply, I don’t believe I’m looking for ways to deny a particular teaching of the CC.

Jon

 

[jpaul1953]

My non-Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ, why, in your opinion, would Jesus entrust the care of His mother Mary to John, if Jesus had brothers and sisters?

John 19:

Standing by the cross of Jesus were his blessed mother Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, Woman, behold, your son. Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother. And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

If this does NOT confirm that Mary had no other children who could care for her, necessitating the need for Jesus to entrust her care to one of his disciples, then could someone please elaborate? If Mary had several sons and daughters who could have, and would have, according to Jewish custom, been entrusted with Mary’s care, then why was John necessary? It would have been the responsibility of Jesus’ brothers and sisters to be the caretakers of their beloved widowed mother.

Hey Joe 370,

To further your point of Mary’s perpetual virginity. When Mary and Joseph returned to find Jesus at the temple at the age of 12, there was no mention of any children going with them or being left behind. Also the bible never says Mary had other children or that other children had Mary as their mother. It only says Jesus had other brothers and sisters. It does say that Mary was Jesus’ mother and that Jesus was Mary’s son. No more, no less.

We all know that Hebrew and Aramaic had no words for close relatives like uncle, nephew, etc so brother/sister were used to call all outside of mother/father.There are other talking points, I will leave them for a later time.

Take care.

Joe

 

[jpaul1953]

Hi Joe,
I was responding to this post:

And I was providing a dispute of the notion (which I believe false) that Christ chose John because His siblings were cowards.

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but since I believe St. Mary was ever-virgin, and the Lutheran confessions imply, I don’t believe I’m looking for ways to deny a particular teaching of the CC.

Jon

Dear Jon,

My bad. Sorry 'bout that.

Joe

 

[JonNC]

Dear Jon,

My bad. Sorry 'bout that.

Joe

No problem, Joe.
:tiphat:

Jon

 

[adrift]

Why is it strange, they were not married yet,

This is not accurate. They were betrothed which was the first step in the marriage.

By saying what you are saying here, you are condoning pre-marital sex, your saying its ok. Remember they were engaged, not married.

Not correct they were married not engaged as we know it but in the first part of the marriage ceremony.

“When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord commanded, He brought Mary home to be his wife, but she remained a virgin until her son was born.” See no pre-marital sex by them. They were not married because it says “He brought Mary home to be his wife.” If she was already his wife,

1. The angel would not tell Joseph, "do not be afraid to go ahead with your marriage to Mary.
2. Why would Joseph take his wife home to be his wife? Wouldn’t he just take his wife homeif she was his wife?

Here is where you misunderstand how marriage took place.
The completion of the marriage was when the husband took the wife into his home.

1. The angel was saying not to be afraid to complete the marriage ceremony.
2. Joseph would take Mary into his home to complete the marriage ceremony.

I think your argument is with scripture since it identifies a betrothed Joseph as Mary’s Husband and Mary as his wife.

Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man, yet unwilling to expose her to shame, decided to divorce her quietly.Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her.

 

[rinnie]

Ok it stands to reason that Mary would ask “How can this be, I’m a virgin.” Remember she was confused and disturbed and tried to think what the angel could mean. So not thinking with a clear head It would be likely that she would ask that kind of question. See when someone is confused and disturbed they don’t think in a normal way. I really don’t think Mary would say being in a confused and disturbed way, “Really, me and Joseph, oh goodie goodie.” I think the normal reaction in that state of mind would be what she said.

See this is where we can both read something and get different things our of it. Now you feel she is disturbed and confused, now the gospel does not say that, it says she was greatly troubled. Now again according to the scripture she was greatly troubled not because of what the angel said was going to happen, but the way that the angel greeted her. Hail. favored one. Now she was thinking yes, how can I be pregnant, and have a child because I already made this vow to God. As I said before.

Now you have to think, the angel knew the vow, that is why the Angel told her about Elizabeth being pregnant also. The Angel said to her, you will have a Child, keep your vow to God also and remain a Virgin as you Promised. How? Simple as the Angel stated, NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD!

Mary’s response was a simple one. Full Complete trust in God. She never questioned it again. She said fine, whatever God asks of me I will do.

Now Mary’s response is a faith that completely stands, which Zechariah’s faith was disbelief. Mary does not say but how can I get pregnant without a Man, She knows that if God says she will, she will. That is not what she is questioning. IF so she would say but how can I get pregnant without a man, but she states since I HAVE NO relations with a Man. Not I have not yet HAD it, It states I HAVE NO relations. Now that is in the present tense. I HAVE NO RELATIONS WITH A MAN. Now why NOT? SImple she was to remain a Virgin. Again she did not say but Joseph and I have never had relations, or my husband and I have never had relations yet, she said I HAVE NO RELATIONS with A MAN. Which means ANY MAN. Do you see the Mystery in those words?

When she stated she has no relations with a Man, that shows that she had not, and has no intention of having them with a MAN, any Man. Simple words, I have NO relations with A MAN!!

 

[Reuben_J]

See this is where we can both read something and get different things our of it. Now you feel she is disturbed and confused, now the gospel does not say that, it says she was greatly troubled. Now again according to the scripture she was greatly troubled not because of what the angel said was going to happen, but the way that the angel greeted her. Hail. favored one. Now she was thinking yes, how can I be pregnant, and have a child because I already made this vow to God. As I said before.

Now you have to think, the angel knew the vow, that is why the Angel told her about Elizabeth being pregnant also. The Angel said to her, you will have a Child, keep your vow to God also and remain a Virgin as you Promised. How? Simple as the Angel stated, NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD!

Mary’s response was a simple one. Full Complete trust in God. She never questioned it again. She said fine, whatever God asks of me I will do.

Now Mary’s response is a faith that completely stands, which Zechariah’s faith was disbelief. Mary does not say but how can I get pregnant without a Man, She knows that if God says she will, she will. That is not what she is questioning. IF so she would say but how can I get pregnant without a man, but she states since I HAVE NO relations with a Man. Not I have not yet HAD it, It states I HAVE NO relations. Now that is in the present tense. I HAVE NO RELATIONS WITH A MAN. Now why NOT? SImple she was to remain a Virgin. Again she did not say but Joseph and I have never had relations, or my husband and I have never had relations yet, she said I HAVE NO RELATIONS with A MAN. Which means ANY MAN. Do you see the Mystery in those words?

When she stated she has no relations with a Man, that shows that she had not, and has no intention of having them with a MAN, any Man. Simple words, **I have NO relations with A MAN!! **

Very well said.

 

[KathleenGee]

Faith with certitude…how we can learn from Mary.

Her fiat, her Yes…

‘Nothing is impossible with God’…remain virgin and give birth to the Christ Child. Why would she want to change this state of single devotion to God???

 

[rev_kevin]

See this is where we can both read something and get different things our of it. Now you feel she is disturbed and confused, now the gospel does not say that, it says she was greatly troubled. Now again according to the scripture she was greatly troubled not because of what the angel said was going to happen, but the way that the angel greeted her. Hail. favored one. Now she was thinking yes, how can I be pregnant, and have a child because I already made this vow to God. As I said before.

Now you have to think, the angel knew the vow, that is why the Angel told her about Elizabeth being pregnant also. The Angel said to her, you will have a Child, keep your vow to God also and remain a Virgin as you Promised. How? Simple as the Angel stated, NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD!

Mary’s response was a simple one. Full Complete trust in God. She never questioned it again. She said fine, whatever God asks of me I will do.

Now Mary’s response is a faith that completely stands, which Zechariah’s faith was disbelief. Mary does not say but how can I get pregnant without a Man, She knows that if God says she will, she will. That is not what she is questioning. IF so she would say but how can I get pregnant without a man, but she states since I HAVE NO relations with a Man. Not I have not yet HAD it, It states I HAVE NO relations. Now that is in the present tense. I HAVE NO RELATIONS WITH A MAN. Now why NOT? SImple she was to remain a Virgin. Again she did not say but Joseph and I have never had relations, or my husband and I have never had relations yet, she said I HAVE NO RELATIONS with A MAN. Which means ANY MAN. Do you see the Mystery in those words?

When she stated she has no relations with a Man, that shows that she had not, and has no intention of having them with a MAN, any Man. Simple words, I have NO relations with A MAN!!

Mine says In Luke v 29 "Confused and disturbed, Mary tried to think what the angel could mean.

I don’t see how you read into this that she made a vow to God to be a life virgin. I just don’t see it.

Now about NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD. See Elizabeth had become pregnant in her OLD AGE. People thought her to be BARREN, [could not have children of her own], but she’s already in her 6th month. Then the angel says, for nothing is impossible with God. Even in her old age and considered barren, God granted her a child.

Yes “I have no relations with a man” is in the present tense, after all she is a virgin at this time.
Yes you are correct it does say man meaning any man. That don’t mean she was going to remain a virgin the rest of her life. It means she has not had relations with anyone, with any man including Joseph.

If I was told that I would have a child and I know I’m to be married to someone I would say How can this be, I have not been with a women. Meaning I have not been with any woman to have a child. I have not been with Rachael, Mary, Martha, Reba or the woman I am to be married to. Making a point that I’m a virgin there is no way I could have a child.

 

[joe370]

Kevin, Rinnie says one thing and you say the opposite. Who was entrusted with the authority via the guidance of the holy spirit, to settle the matter once and for all? I don’t and I can guarantee you that Rinnie won’t make that claim, and I am pretty sure that you won’t either.

 

[rev_kevin]

Kevin, Rinnie says one thing and you say the opposite. Who was entrusted with the authority via the guidance of the holy spirit, to settle the matter once and for all? I don’t and I can guarantee you that Rinnie won’t make that claim, and I am pretty sure that you won’t either.

Sorry I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[adrift]

Mine says In Luke v 29 "Confused and disturbed, Mary tried to think what the angel could mean.

I looked at 14 different translations and none says confused. What translation are you using?

I don’t see how you read into this that she made a vow to God to be a life virgin. I just don’t see it.

If you don’t you don’t. But you haven’t adequately answered our question either.

Yes “I have no relations with a man” is in the present tense, after all she is a virgin at this time.

But more than being a virgin she is a married woman. I have pointed this out numerous times. You have not shown that this was not true. In fact, scripture says they were husband and wife.

Yes you are correct it does say man meaning any man. That don’t mean she was going to remain a virgin the rest of her life. It means she has not had relations with anyone, with any man including Joseph.

A strange statement. Why would it be any man when she was married to Joseph.

If I was told that I would have a child and I know I’m to be married to someone I would say How can this be, I have not been with a women. Meaning I have not been with any woman to have a child. I have not been with Rachael, Mary, Martha, Reba or the woman I am to be married to. Making a point that I’m a virgin there is no way I could have a child.

Your answer would sound strange to me and I would assume you were not ready to marry Rachael, Mary Martha, Reba but especially the woman you were engaged to.

Ok it stands to reason that Mary would ask “How can this be, I’m a virgin.” Remember she was confused and disturbed and tried to think what the angel could mean.

Mary was disturbed at the angel’s greeting not what he told her about becoming pregnant.

Joe 370 said it well my emphasis:

So, she lost all since of reality? I thought about it…I really did, but the only logical conclusion, to me anyway, is that Mary would have naturally assumed the angel was referring to a child between her and her betrothed husband. That was a good theory though; very original.

Even more so because the were in the first part of the marriage.

 

[joe370]

Sorry I have no idea what you are talking about.

Kevin, when it comes to doctrinal truth, eg the Eucharist, Mary’s perpetual virginity etc - do you believe that Jesus left the world with a way to know, with certainty, what that truth is, in light of the fact that there are so many conflicting truths out there, within the sphere of Christianity?

We all have opinions and we are all certainly entitled to them, but I would never claim that I am right about any one teaching, regarding Christianity, based solely on my authoritative interpretation/discernment. As a non-Catholic I simply wanted to find the source of that authority, which of course is Jesus teaching through is established church, via the guidance of the HS in perpetuity.

 

[rinnie]

Mine says In Luke v 29 "Confused and disturbed, Mary tried to think what the angel could mean.

I don’t see how you read into this that she made a vow to God to be a life virgin. I just don’t see it.

Now about NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD. See Elizabeth had become pregnant in her OLD AGE. People thought her to be BARREN, [could not have children of her own], but she’s already in her 6th month. Then the angel says, for nothing is impossible with God. Even in her old age and considered barren, God granted her a child.

Yes “I have no relations with a man” is in the present tense, after all she is a virgin at this time.
Yes you are correct it does say man meaning any man. That don’t mean she was going to remain a virgin the rest of her life. It means she has not had relations with anyone, with any man including Joseph.

If I was told that I would have a child and I know I’m to be married to someone I would say How can this be, I have not been with a women. Meaning I have not been with any woman to have a child. I have not been with Rachael, Mary, Martha, Reba or the woman I am to be married to. Making a point that I’m a virgin there is no way I could have a child.

But here is where I do not understand at all what you are saying. Where did the Angel tell Mary she IS ALREADY pregnant?

Now here is something I do not understand. Why would it be strange to you if somone told you that you would conceive a Child? You knew you were going to get married soon, and WOULD conceive a child.

When the Same Angel appeared to Zechariah and told him his wife would have a Son he questioned the angel, but his question was not how because he knew how, he knew she was barren and old. He knew that she could not conceive, but the Angel told him she would now. Now if he was like the Blessed Mother he would have sang praises to God. But he doubted GOD. That is why he could not speak. Then he continued his ministry, then went home and THEN his wife conceived. Elizabeth knew it was because of Gods Grac that she was able to conceive.

But the Blessed Mother never said HOW? She never denied GOD. She just was asking how can I have a child and remain a virgin.

The reason you know this is simple, The angel did not say Mary you HAVE conceived she said you WILL. Now when Zechariah heard this he said How, she is old and I am old, and she is barren. He doubted the Power of God. But Mary never doubted the power of God, or the words that were being said to her. If she was to have a normal relationship with her husband and have relations she would have been like Elizabeth and rejoiced in the Lord and been happy.

If Mary was to have a normal relationship she would have said nothing, and when Joseph came to here she would know as Elizabeth that she would conceive a Child.

But Mary’s problem was not like Zechariah’s, she did not doubt Gods power, she knew she was to remain a Virgin. Her question was how am I going to have a child and remain a virgin. When the angel said nothing is impossible for God, she did not doubt she said let it be done to me as Gods will.

The reason we know she was told she will REMAIN a virgin is the way she answered the Angel, I HAVE NO RELATIONS WITH A MAN. If I said to you, I have NO relations with a man you would know that I have remained a Virgin. If she would have said but I have had no relations with a MAN YET then we would understand better. But when she said I HAVE NO, that is what she meant, Never has, never will!!

She had no other reason to answer that way. You continue to think that the angel told her she was already with Child. The angel did not say that. He said you WILL have a Child. If she was expecting to have sex with her husband as Elizabeth did she would not have said what she did.

Please go back and read the scripture. The angel said YOU WILL, then she said HOW, then he said by the Power of the Holy Spirit will overshadow you. There you go, he told her what she needed to know. She said then yes, I understand! Anotherwards I will remain a virgin and still serve my Lord as I promised.

Now if she did not truly trust God, she would have continued to say, but how can I remain a virgin if Joseph and I have sex. But she did not need to ask that, the angel told her, you won’t ever have sex, and you will stay pure as you were promised in the temple to God. ( its is just she did not need those words, she had complete trust in God, that they did not have to be spoken).

 

[rinnie]

Rev Kev, think also what adrift just said to you also.

Why did say HOW can this be, I have no relations with A MAN.

Now why did she say that? She was a Holy Women. If she was was to have an ordinary marriage it would have been EXPECTED of her to sleep with her husband.

Now as it was showed to you she was already married, and she said I have no relations with a man.

Now even thought the Blessed Mother is in the N.T. we are under the O.T teachings here in time. Now in Jewish custom an engagement lie this was considered equal to a marriage, although the couple just did not live together yet.

It took a legal divorce to break the engagment.

In the N.T. the word overshasow is rearly used in Greek, but it reminds Lukes Greek readers of the O.T.

The cloud covered the tent and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle and Moses was not able to ENTER the tent meeting because the cloud abode upon it and the glory of the Lord filled the tabenacle. (Ex.40:34-35)

The word abode upon is translated into overshadow, the same greek version Luke Knew. Mary in this same way (overshadowed).

It is Luke that tells us tat Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant.

Go back and you will see the Ark of the Covenant, Moses could not enter it, The same way the Blessed Mother is the new ark, she will remain Pure. As the Mother as the Lords Anointed Mary had been kept Full of Grace from her birth, free from the taint of sin that caused Israel to wander so many times for the right path… She remained during and after the brith of her Son.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would avoid any bible translation that is out of the norm of most…and I would find it questionable and directed to oppose Catholic teaching as well to state Mary was confused…some times to grow in faith, we have to look at things we don’t feel compliant to our way of looking at things.