Why did Jesus have to be baptized?

[Hodos]

Excellent sermon on baptism, probably one of the best I have heard. The first minute or two the sound isn’t captured well, but its well worth waiting for it to be fixed.

 

[EvangAlived]

the baptism you’re referencing there (Acts 22:16)

Sorry, typo (my mistake), correct. “Baptism” is “baptism”, and it came from Heaven, Ephesians 4:5.

Does the remission of sins come from John?

Of course not, and who ever said it does? Not I. Misdirection.

Rather, wouldn’t you say that the washing comes from John

No. It comes from Heaven, as already cited to you. Matthew 21:25, ec.

the remission of sins comes from Jesus’ death and resurrection

Remission of sins comes from God, originating in the Father, for His law is transgressed, by the providence of Jesus Christ paying the penalty (even as Adam accepted in Genesis), through the work of regeneration of the Holy Ghost.

Please notice that both John and Jesus (through disciples) were baptizing before Calvary.

And, since that’s the case, it means that John’s baptism isn’t what you’re claiming it is.

Faulty apriori, leads to your faulty conclusion.

Job 15:12; Proverbs 6:13, 10:10.

 

[EvangAlived]

Does Jesus offer this baptism to Nicodemus at that moment? Or, given His assertion that He must be “lifted up” (John 3:14) tell us that this baptism – and salvation – happens after He has been lifted up?

The meeting with Nicodemus was by “night”.

Jesus speaks of the need of water and Holy Ghost, vs 5.

‘Salvation’ (Justification) happens the moment a person believes (John 3:16,18), and it began all the way back in the Garden, Genesis 3:15 (see also Hebrews 11; Genesis 4:26; Psalms 116:13,17; Zephaniah 3:9; Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2). Adam to Nicodemus are ‘saved’ in the same “way” (John 14:6), as all those during the cross and after it, with the exception of the direction of ‘looking’.

Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus of His own future death, using a past type (Moses).

Nicodemus had some faith in Jesus (John 3:1-2), but it wasn’t until after Calvary and the resurrection that Nicodemus (personally) fully believed and Nicodemus remembered what Jesus had said in that night, and along with Joseph of Arimathaea (John 19:38) helped to bury the body of Jesus.

Some of the Pharisees did indeed receive baptism (Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7) either by John and his disciples, or by the disciples of Jesus, but not all who did so had a change of heart (Matthew 21:30). The second son (in the parable) represented the leading men of the Jewish nation. Some of the Pharisees had repented and received the baptism of John; but the leaders would not acknowledge that he came from God.

Remember, the disciples of John (and John himself) and Jesus were baptizing well before Calvary. It is not as if they had to wait until after Calvary. Both sets of disciples were saying the same things and doing the same things. Baptizing (full immersion) in water, and pointing unto the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world (Jesus).

The Baptism (full immersion) in water (originating from Heaven) is the same. There is no dichotomy there.

 

[EvangAlived]

So, please tell me: did God forgive the sins of those who repented and were baptized by John?

Yes. That is what the scriptures cited to you state.

sacramental baptism

Apriori assumed. Begging the question. Logical fallacy. You have not demonstrated ‘sacramental baptism’ (as defined by Catholic theology), but are merely asserting it. I do not accept such assertion.

I’m cool with that. However, if you want real effects , then those didn’t happen until Christ rose from the dead and commanded his apostles to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit .

That self-made ‘rule’/interpretation, then negates the entirety of the baptisms that were done by the disciples under Jesus before Calvary. It would also negate all those who came before who called upon the name of the Lord. Was Adam “effectually” saved? Was Enoch “effectually” saved (he entered Heaven long before Calvary)? Was Moses “effectually” saved (he entered Heaven long before Calvary) Was Elijah “effectually” saved (he entered Heaven long before Calvary)? etc.

Ezekiel 36:25 – “I will sprinkle clean water over you to make you clean; from all your impurities and from all your idols I will cleanse you.”

That is referring back to the shadowy rite, which typified the spiritual, speaking of, the Holy Ghost (showers of rain), see context, see also Isaiah 52:15; Numbers 8:7, 19:13,20,28, see Hebrews 10:22 (but notice the full washing of the body with “water”, just as Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3, fully immersed in water, and also need of the Holy Ghost; Acts 1:5, 11:16). Notice the starting place, Acts 1:22. Beginning where? See Acts 10:37, 13:24, 19:4. How many baptisms? Ephesians 4:5.

Moses took the blood of the covenant and sprinkled it on the people (Exodus 24:8).

That is the “sprinkling” of “blood” of Jesus (not physical water), see Hebrews 12:24; 1 Peter 1:2, connect also to Leviticus 14:51.

You have the things confused, as Nicodemus did, natural and spiritual.

 

[EvangAlived]

Even if you want to make a case for immersion, please tell me: do you see immersion in the baptisms (for example, of Jesus or of Philip’s Ethiopian eunuch),

Jesus:

John 3:23, “much water”, “baptized”. Matthew 3:16 “went up straightway out of the water”; see also Mark 1:9 “in Jordan”, Mark 1:10 “straightway coming up out of the water”.

Philip & Eunuch:

Acts 8:36, “certain water”, “here is water”; Acts 8:38, “they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.”; Acts 8:39, “when they were come up out of the water”

The text explains itself, for those with eyes to see and willing to read; 2 Peter 3:5, “standing in the water”.

Read Romans 6:4-5 (Paul speaking by the Holy Ghost, defines it) and then again in Colossians 2:12, “buried”. A burial is not a ‘sprinkling’ of dirt over a body, it is a complete submersion into the earth, and wholly covered, as Peter said the world itself was by water in the days of Noah, 2 Peter 3:6, “overflowed with water” (see Genesis, all the high hills covered by many cubits), see also 1 Peter 3:18-21.

Nothing is assumed, and is even what the word “baptism” itself means (and does not mean ‘sprinkle’ (aspersion) or ‘pouring’ (infusion), ever). It is all plainly stated in many places.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes. That is what the scriptures cited to you state.

Hardly.

You cited Eph 4:5, which – in context – asserts that there is " one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all." You seem to be using this verse to support your claim that the baptism of John was salvific. If so, then this means that you interpret any baptism in the history of God’s people to be salvific.

That’s clearly mistaken. Earlier, you pointed to the (metaphorical) reference to Moses and the Israelites in crossing the sea to be “baptism”. So, if you want to make this claim, then you’re saying that all the Israelites are saved. However, you know that’s not true. Do I really need to point you to the golden calf incident and the fate of Korah in Numbers 26. You see… if you want to make the claim that all baptisms are salvific, then you’re claiming not only that Christ was unnecessary for the Jews, but that all were saved… and we know that both of these are untrue. Sadly, your eisegesis is failing you, here.

Of course not, and who ever said it does? Not I. Misdirection.

Well, then, are you saying that remission of sins was the result of John’s baptism? Because, if so, you’re saying Jesus was then unnecessary for them.

Please notice that both John and Jesus (through disciples) were baptizing before Calvary.

Correct. And neither of these baptisms brought remission of sin. Only the sacrament of baptism, which followed the sacrifice of Christ, actually brought the possibility of remission and salvation.

‘Salvation’ (Justification) happens the moment a person believes (John 3:16,18)

John 3:16 does not say this, although I recognize that you want it to say this. It doesn’t say that salvation happens immediately upon belief; just that belief leads to salvation. To use your phrase, “faulty a priori”.

Yes. That is what the scriptures cited to you state.

Let me be more precise, then: did God forgive the sins of those who repented because of the baptism of John? (Of course not. Therefore, the baptism of John did not bring remission of sin.)

Apriori assumed. Begging the question. Logical fallacy.

Nice laundry list. Let me offer another to you: freely asserted, freely denied.

How is it, then, that my discussion of sacramental baptism is ‘assumed’, ‘begging the question’, or a ‘fallacy’? I’m all ears.

That self-made ‘rule’/interpretation, then negates the entirety of the baptisms that were done by the disciples under Jesus before Calvary. It would also negate all those who came before who called upon the name of the Lord.

Precisely. Baptism did not, of itself, bring remission of sins, until Christ commanded it and people obeyed. That’s the whole point.

 

[Gorgias]

Jesus:

John 3:23, “much water” , “baptized” . Matthew 3:16 “went up straightway out of the water ”; see also Mark 1:9 “ in Jordan”, Mark 1:10 “straightway coming up out of the water ”.

Philip & Eunuch:

Acts 8:36, “certain water”, “here is water”; Acts 8:38, “they went down both into the water , both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.”; Acts 8:39, “when they were come up out of the water ”

The text explains itself, for those with eyes to see and willing to read; 2 Peter 3:5, “standing in the water” .

Yes, but none of these say “immersion”, which is what you’re claiming. Is it possible to go down into the water and not be immersed? Certainly. If you want to assert immersion, you need to show immersion. “Faulty a priori”, you’re fond of saying.

 

[Serpent_of_Paradise]

Jesus was the new Adam;, He undid the damage of Original Sin. In choosing to be baptized he is establishing the path of salvation for all those who follow him. He is also creating the Sacrament of Baptism, by having the water
ritually poured over his Divine/Human nature.