Why did Jesus have to die?

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Revelation13_16

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Hi CA,

So I’m thinking about mortal sin and the Catholic concept of salvation and I’m confused.

According to Catholicism (and correct me if I’m wrong) if a person converts to Catholicism as an adult, and get baptized, and then leaves the church and goes home.

And then Saturday night, he stays up late and watches football, and thinks “it’s ok, 3 hours sleep, I’ll go to Mass”.

He sleeps.

The alarm clock awakes him and he says “I can’t go, I’m too tired” and he sleeps until 4pm.

When he gets up, he can still make the 6pm mass but decides not to go, he’ll confess on Monday.

Unfortunately a plane crashes into his house and he dies on Sunday night.

So now our newly Baptized Catholic is dead, with a mortal sin on his soul, and presumably goes to hell because he never made it to confession to confess.

So, I’m just wondering why Jesus had to die, because this sounds alot like the Old Testament.

In the Old Testament, if you sinned you had to make atonement, people refer to the Old Covenant as the Covenant of Law, and the New Covenant as the Covenant of Grace.

But where is the grace if we still have to ritually atone to be cleansed?

I don’t understand why Jesus had to die?

Love,
Rev
 
First, we cannot judge whether that person indeed had mortal sin. Only God is the judge of our hearts. And if he did, then it is his choice, is it not? Missing Mass may seem like just one ‘small thing’. . .but I seem to recall somebody taking just one bite of a forbidden fruit and that was a pretty big deal.

Second, the fact that Jesus chose (there is a difference) to die for our sins neither makes it impossible for us, once Christians and believers, to sin no more, nor does it magically take away all consequences of sin.

Remember, before Christ died, even the GOOD people, the ones who lived righteously like Abraham, Noah, etc. did not go to heaven!! Heaven was not opened until Christ died for us. Well, once Christ died, the good people who had died in grace or who had been ‘saved through fire’ could go to heaven. But that did not mean that we now get a ‘get into heaven free’ card. We still have consequences for sin, here and ‘in the age to come’ as Scripture tells us. We can still sin mortally. We can still need to be purified from lesser, repented but not reparated sin. And we can still get to heaven through God’s grace.
 
Revelation13_16 said:
Hi CA, So I’m thinking about mortal sin and the Catholic concept of salvation and I’m confused.
According to Catholicism (and correct me if I’m wrong) if a person converts to Catholicism as an adult, and get baptized, and then leaves the church and goes home.
And then Saturday night, he stays up late and watches football, and thinks “it’s ok, 3 hours sleep, I’ll go to Mass”.
He sleeps.
The alarm clock awakes him and he says “I can’t go, I’m too tired” and he sleeps until 4pm.
When he gets up, he can still make the 6pm mass but decides not to go, he’ll confess on Monday.
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Problem #1. Confession is not a get out of jail free card. The cavalier attitude of “it’s no big deal, I’ll confess Monday and everything will be alright” doesn’t work. I am intending to sin with no real remorse. I am not genuine in my sorrow for offending God by breaking His Laws.
Revelation13_16 said:
Unfortunately a plane crashes into his house and he dies on Sunday night.
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Sorry to hear about my untimely demise.
Revelation13_16 said:
So now our newly Baptized Catholic is dead, with a mortal sin on his soul, and presumably goes to hell because he never made it to confession to confess.
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Mistake #2. Who says I have a mortal sin on my soul? There are three requirements for a sin to be “mortal”. Full knowledge, full consent, grave matter. Full knowledge means you must fully understand that the sin separates you from God. You must fully comprehend the consequences of the sin. That if you do die prior to a “good” confession you will in fact spend eternity in hell, that you choose to sin knowing full well the eternal consequences. Full consent means you are not under duress, although you’ll have a difficult time arguing your being tired constitutes duress, God will judge. The matter needs to be “grave” which of course, missing Mass on Sunday would be.
It’s actually difficult to commit a mortal sin, because you do have to think about it, it is a deliberate act or refusal to act. Not being God, and not judging myself, I would be hesitant to say I really committed a mortal sin, it seems I didn’t really understand the ramifications of my act, nor did I understand the concept of reconciliation. That is for God to decide, not me.
Revelation13_16 said:
So, I’m just wondering why Jesus had to die, because this sounds alot like the Old Testament.
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There are similarities. Rejecting Gods’ Word in the OT was a sin, so too in the NT.
Revelation13_16 said:
In the Old Testament, if you sinned you had to make atonement, people refer to the Old Covenant as the Covenant of Law, and the New Covenant as the Covenant of Grace.
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It does not mean there is no more sin, nor does it mean you are automatically forgiven.
BTW, I enjoy reading your questions, keep them up.
 
Rev, You ask some very good questions. This is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It has a good search engine. I like it because it’s on line and easy to use, or quote from.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Simply type in the subject you’re looking for and search. For sin, both venial and mortal, go to
CHAPTER ONE?THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON, ARTICLE 8?SIN. It really is interesting and very informative.
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CCC:
II. THE DEFINITION OF SIN
1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121
1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125
1851 It is precisely in the Passion, when the mercy of Christ is about to vanquish it, that sin most clearly manifests its violence and its many forms: unbelief, murderous hatred, shunning and mockery by the leaders and the people, Pilate’s cowardice and the cruelty of the soldiers, Judas’ betrayal - so bitter to Jesus, Peter’s denial and the disciples’ flight. However, at the very hour of darkness, the hour of the prince of this world,126 the sacrifice of Christ secretly becomes the source from which the forgiveness of our sins will pour forth inexhaustibly.
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When he gets up, he can still make the 6pm mass but decides not to go, he’ll confess on Monday.
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In your hypothetical situation you have clearly misunderstood the meaning and purpose of Confession
Unfortunately a plane crashes into his house and he dies on Sunday night.
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So now our newly Baptized Catholic is dead, with a mortal sin on his soul, and presumably goes to hell because he never made it to confession to confess.
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Refer you to the reply above. There really is no point to Confession unless the penitent is truely sorry for their sin. This is crucial for the ‘healing’ ministry of the Sacrament. In desiring reconciliation with God and His forgiveness, if deprived of the opportunity, it is granted by God.
In the Old Testament, if you sinned you had to make atonement, people refer to the Old Covenant as the Covenant of Law, and the New Covenant as the Covenant of Grace.
Click to expand...
But where is the grace if we still have to ritually atone to be cleansed?
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It is not ritual atonement but Forgiveness as instituted by Christ. Jn 20: 22-23.
I don’t understand why Jesus had to die
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God is infinite, therefore any offence against Him is by definition also ‘infinite’ or infinitely wrong. Man is finite. Therefore man cannot put right the damage he has done. Only another infinite being substituted for man can forgive man. That Christ did by becoming man.

The infinity of sin is forgiven by the infinity of God
 
Did Jesus’ death remove any and all obligation for obedience on our parts? Do we suddenly become save-bots when we “get saved”, marching towards our inevitable rest in heaven regardless of anything and everything? A flash of belief, a few seconds of prayer, and the deal is done?

I’ve always wondered, if God only wants a few seconds of action on our parts to save us, why does He even want that? What’s the point of raising those few short all-or-nothing seconds above a whole lifetime?
 
Sixtus said:
In your hypothetical situation you have clearly misunderstood the meaning and purpose of Confession
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I don’t think I have.
Refer you to the reply above. There really is no point to Confession unless the penitent is truely sorry for their sin. This is crucial for the ‘healing’ ministry of the Sacrament. In desiring reconciliation with God and His forgiveness, if deprived of the opportunity, it is granted by God.
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I never mean’t to infer that our ‘victim’ wasn’t sorry for missing mass on Sunday.

Sure, he at 4pm knew he had 2 hours to make the 6pm mass but decided against it (Mortal Sin) but that doesn’t mean he was playing God for a fool, he was sorry.
It is not ritual atonement but Forgiveness as instituted by Christ. Jn 20: 22-23.
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ritual noun [rich-oo-uhl]
  1. an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.
atonement noun [uh-tohn-muhnt]
  1. satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.
  2. Theology. the doctrine concerning the reconciliation of God and humankind, esp. as accomplished through the life, suffering, and death of Christ.
God is infinite, therefore any offence against Him is by definition also ‘infinite’ or infinitely wrong. Man is finite. Therefore man cannot put right the damage he has done. Only another infinite being substituted for man can forgive man. That Christ did by becoming man.
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I agree.
The infinity of sin is forgiven by the infinity of God
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Here is where I don’t get it.

Adam damned everyone to hell by bringing sin into the world through one act (eating the fruit)

All we have to do to collect our ticket to hell is be born., nature by it’s instinct will do the rest to corrupt us.

Christ is the 2nd Adam, sent to undo the damage of the first Adam, so logically this should done also by one act. (on the cross)

All we have to do to collect our ticket to heaven is believe, God with his grace will do the rest to purify us.

But in Catholicism “It is not finished”, it’s only the starting point.

I feel this downplays Christ’s sacrifice.

God Bless,
Rev
 
Revelation13_16 said:
All we have to do to collect our ticket to heaven is believe, God with his grace will do the rest to purify us.

But in Catholicism “It is not finished”, it’s only the starting point.

I feel this downplays Christ’s sacrifice.
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If we sit there and say we’ll be saved, we are not going to be saved. What do you do to believe you will be saved? - just say “I do believe”?

Going to Heaven is not as easy as one thinks.
 
water said:
If we sit there and say we’ll be saved, we are not going to be saved. What do you do to believe you will be saved? - just say “I do believe”?
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Could you kindly clarify what Christ did on the cross please?

Thanks.
Going to Heaven is not as easy as one thinks.
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But going to hell is, why the difference if Jesus is the second Adam?

God Bless,
Rev
 
Revelation13_16 said:
Another patent answer from you water, once again it explains nothing.

In this thread the actual atonement of Jesus is not discussed, the thread seemed to deviate towards confession.

If you don’t want to respond or have trouble typing, I’ll wait for someone else to explain the atonement to me.

God Bless,
Rev
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Let me take this straight from Scripture.

"Repent, be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. To be save, we must love God, first, neighbor, and obey the commandments. Jesus specifically said, "IF you love me, obey the commandments.’

He died for our sins and open the gates of heaven, but heaven is not easily attend. We have to be faithful, by the grace of God, we must do good works, through faith. For without works without faith is dead.

The idea that belief is only necessary to gain heaven, cheapens Jesus death and resurrection. It’s like OSAS which itself is an erroneous doctrine. We can lose our salvation if we do not presevere.

If we sin, we will not gain heaven. Repent and be truly and avoid sin, we will earn our just wages.

Yes, Jesus DIED for our sins, but we must earn it. Belief is not enough. Scripture makes this VERY CLEAR.

“You say you believe, but even the devil believes in God and they do tremble.” (paraprhrase).
 
In addition from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has “opened” heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

1020 The Christian who unites his own death to that of Jesus views it as a step towards him and an entrance into everlasting life. When the Church for the last time speaks Christ’s words of pardon and absolution over the dying Christian, seals him for the last time with a strengthening anointing, and gives him Christ in viaticum as nourishment for the journey, she speaks with gentle assurance:

Go forth, Christian soul, from this world
in the name of God the almighty Father,
who created you,
in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God,
who suffered for you,
in the name of the Holy Spirit,
who was poured out upon you.
Go forth, faithful Christian!
May you live in peace this day,
may your home be with God in Zion,
with Mary, the virgin Mother of God,
with Joseph, and all the angels and saints. . . .
May you return to [your Creator]
who formed you from the dust of the earth.
May holy Mary, the angels, and all the saints
come to meet you as you go forth from this life. . . .
May you see your Redeemer face to face.

1019 Jesus, the Son of God, freely suffered death for us in complete and free submission to the will of God, his Father. By his death he has conquered death, and so opened the possibility of salvation to all men.

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
 
Rev, let me take a stab at it. First of all, if our friend was truly penitent, and he intended to go to confession, then I believe God, the God of Justice, would forgive our friend. You and I discussed this yesterday on another thread (I think).

We’ll just gloss over the fact that he thought, “Hey! I can skip and just make it up at confession!!!” That’s not gonna happen.

Jesus did die for the atonement of our sins, but we MUST participate in that Sacrfice. God would not be a God of Justice if he gave us a free ticket to heaven. What if someone who has been saved thinks, “Hey, I believe in the once-for-all sacrifice, so I can just knock off that wife of mine for the insurance money”. Is that the God of Justice?
 
Rev.,

As has been explained to you before but you were unable to comprehend it, Jesus died to reclaim our ability to live forever. He reclaimed our connection to God. Through the New Birth/Baptism we become new creatures. We are again living Life. We are living which means we are made whole. The Word of God has been restored to us and we are again human beings. If we continue to be humbly obedient to God through Christ Adam’s destiny will be fulfilled in us just as the Apostles taught. But we are free. We weren’t really free from Adam’s failure until Christ’s victory. By Christ’s death He conquored death. To those in the graves He granted life. If we remain in Him we live. If we cut ourselves off we die.

To be restored to the human race means that Life is once again our natural state but like Adam before the fall we can still choose to die because God still allows us to be free.

Slough off the Calvinist lies that presently delude you and come into the Light of Christ.

CDL
 
Revelation13_16 said:
So what did Christ actually do on the cross then?

God Bless,

Rev
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Jesus died on the cross to offer atonement for our sins, since this was the only way to please God. He died so that we may have CHANCE to go to heaven. God wants us to WANT to go to heaven and be with Him. He doesn’t want to make us go to heaven. We choose to go by our actions. If I choose to not want to be with Him here on earth by not following His commandments, than my actions say I don’t want to be with Him in heaven.

Our Lord died so that He could open up the gates of Heaven for us. He did this wonderful deed for us and now we must prove that we are worthy of this. In Scripture you will find many passages telling us that we must still follow Gods commandments. Just because we say we believe does not mean we are saved. It just cannot be that simple. If Christ had to suffer what makes you think that you don’t.

Jesus became man to show us how to live. I don’t recall Him ever saying that all you had to do was say “I believe” and boom you are saved.
 
I’ve always gotten a kick out of these hypotheticals. Let’s put it on the other foot… A guy goes to a Billy Graham crusade. He
listens intently…he weeps in sorrow…he goes to the altar(or
at least the stage)…confesses the sinner’s prayer. The next
day this married man runs into his neighbors wife…one thing leads to another and well -ahem- he knows her…he’s driving home and thinks big deal— I’m saved—He stops at the local
grocery store for a six pack, realizes at the check out counter
he must have left his wallet at the motel…he does have his gun on him however, takes his six pack, the cash drawer,
and shoots the clerk. As he’s driving away he thinks, big deal,
I’m saved. He’s driving pretty fast now though, trying to get away…he loses control, hits a day care van, kills the driver, a
mother of three, and the inhabitants , seven three year olds.
He thinks, big deal I’m saved, then he dies.

Now the most typical response to this is I imagine is; well he didn’t have a true conversion experience. Now why would that be. Is it because he sinned after the conversion, if that’s the case who will ever experience conversion. Or is it that he made no attempt to ACT right. Christ’s sacrifice is the
WAY. He is the DOOR. Both of those metaphors- symbols of who Christ is- points to action on our
part. You want to go this WAY or that way. Thank you Jesus for showing me the WAY. Jesus, you opened the **DOOR **for me,
I’ll go through it. but I know I have a WAY to go.

Did the Mass skipper die out of friendship with God. God knows. If he did then a sovereign God will send him away.
Maybe he wasn’t working out his salvation with fear and trembling.
 
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