Why did Jesus have to die?

[water]

Another patent answer from you water, once again it explains nothing.

I hope you get answers from the others

 

[Fidelis]

So what did Christ actually do on the cross then?

God Bless,
Rev

We probably should clear up some terms here, since sometimes Catholics and non-Catholic Christians might use the same language but mean different things by it.

From a Protestant viewpoint, Christ’s death on the Cross was purely salvific, that is, it was a once for all act self-contained act that left nothing undone. All the believer has to do is acknowledge that fact, place his faith in Jesus and from that point on he or she is “saved.”

The reason Catholics believe that Christ’s sacrifice was “just the beginning” was that it was *redemptive in *nature. The shedding of Christ’s blood – his sacrifice on the Cross – *redeemed *all men – literally “bought them back” from sin – , closing the breach between God and man caused by original sin and our personal sins. Because of Jesus’ redemptive sacrifice on the Cross, we can place our faith in him and be baptized, i.e., be “saved.”.

Is this all that’s necessary? If the Bible only included the accounts of Jesus’ passion and death, and the small amount of didactic material that directly addresses it (such as Hebrews and some of Paul’s writings) the Bible would be a very short book indeed. On the contrary, the New Testament – including the Gospels and the teaching of Jesus – is chock-full of exhortations, instruction, and warnings about --what? About avoiding sin and doing good.

So, though one may stand by the beautiful truth of John 3:16:

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

…One must, in context, continue reading in that chapter to see what “believes in him” means:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him. (v 36)

Avoiding sin and confessing when we fall does not replace Christ’s sacrifice or make it void – Christ’s redemptive act made it possible for us approach God, place our faith in him, follow his precepts through his grace, and to be reconciled to God when we fail.

Hope that helps.

 

[scylla]

In the Catholic “system” sin matters, that is the difference.

It is not an accident or something unavoidable to sin. We can certainly avoid sin, we do not have to do it. I do not have to lie, cheat, steal, reject God’s will or do anything contrary to God. This is a choice of mine to willfully disobey and reject God.

The important thing is that sin actually is avoidable and if it is then it matters that you sin.

The good news is that you are forgiven if you want it. Before, you would have to make an atonement and hope that your sacrifice was enough. As a Catholic the Sacrifice of Jesus is enough, all I have to do is seek His will and repent.

If I die before I am able to make it to Confession I have already followed His will by my will to go to Confession.
In the hypothetical, the man was willing to go to Confession so he is forgiven. Now God knows if the guy really wanted to go to confession or he was just saying it.
In the hypothetical situation he really was willing to go.
In real life we really don’t know and can’t judge others so we can’t say as only God judges.

He knows if you really are sorry for your sin and are willing to follow Him.

In Catholicism it is simple as all you have to do is seek God’s will and not worry as it is laid out for you.
Seek His will, repent and sin no more. I have confidence, as the Sacrifice of Jesus makes it easy, as I detach myself from sin and put my trust in Jesus.
On the other hand it is difficult without putting my trust in Jesus and turning to Him. I need to constantly rely on Jesus to keep my on the right path as doing it alone just leads to sin and more sin, which essentially is rejection of God’s will.

So Jesus died and we have a free ride to heaven, I just need to accept it, no one can snatch me out of his hand. But I certainly can reject Him and God out of His love will allow me to do my will and reject Him.
He gives us what we want, even if it is rejecting Him, as He doesn’t force us to love Him.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Valke2]

Remember, before Christ died, even the GOOD people, the ones who lived righteously like Abraham, Noah, etc. did not go to heaven!! Heaven was not opened until Christ died for us. Well, once Christ died, the good people who had died in grace or who had been ‘saved through fire’ could go to heaven. But that did not mean that we now get a ‘get into heaven free’ card. We still have consequences for sin, here and ‘in the age to come’ as Scripture tells us. We can still sin mortally. We can still need to be purified from lesser, repented but not reparated sin. And we can still get to heaven through God’s grace.

WHy? WHat possible reason could God have for making Noah or Moses wait until Jesus died? Does Catholic theology really say that no one went to heaven before Jesus died?

 

[water]

WHy? WHat possible reason could God have for making Noah or Moses wait until Jesus died? Does Catholic theology really say that no one went to heaven before Jesus died?

They were in Heaven. Wasn’t Moses with Jesus during the Transfiguration? and other prophet was taken to Heaven alive

 

[ricmat]

WHy? WHat possible reason could God have for making Noah or Moses wait until Jesus died? Does Catholic theology really say that no one went to heaven before Jesus died?

If good people could already get into heaven without Jesus dying, then I guess he didn’t really need to die…which of course is the whole point.

Until the perfect sacrifice was offered by the perfect priest (in both cases, Jesus), mankind was estranged from God.

In terms of “waiting” until Jesus died…since heaven, hell, God are outside of time, I’m not sure waiting is exactly the right term. When Jesus was sacrificed on the cross, and then later ascended to Heaven to offer his sacrifice before God the Father, it affected past, present and future. In fact, we are taught that Jesus is the eternal high priest and continuously offers his perfect sacrifice in the past, present, and future.

I think I got that right (but please correct me if I didn’t)

 

[Revelation13_16]

The idea that belief is only necessary to gain heaven, cheapens Jesus death and resurrection.

Some would say the idea that we have to earn our salvation, cheapens Jesus’ death and resurrection, because it wasn’t in itself sufficient.

If so, why would God endure such a terrible pain if it was only “half sufficient” for us?

It’s like OSAS which itself is an erroneous doctrine.

Question: Who saves us?

God or us?

Yes, Jesus DIED for our sins, but we must earn it. Belief is not enough. Scripture makes this VERY CLEAR.

If you could look at this from St. Paul and answer the following question please.:

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Q. The “it” (bolded above) is a pronoun (like he, she, you etc) that stands in place of a proper or common noun. What does the “it” represent here?

“You say you believe, but even the devil believes in God and they do tremble.” (paraprhrase).

The devil believes but he doesn’t repent & trust, that’s why he’s going to hell, belief alone is not sufficient.

But the problem is a linguistic one.

The word “belief” actually translates poorly into English.

The Greek word also implies “trust”, this aspect of the word, is lost, like so many things that come into English from languages that are richer and more expressive in tenses and inflection.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

What if someone who has been saved thinks, “Hey, I believe in the once-for-all sacrifice, so I can just knock off that wife of mine for the insurance money”.

Galatians 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness

Scripture says regarding wolves in sheep’s clothing that you will know them by their fruits.

Does the Holy Spirit produce the fruits of murder?

Is that the God of Justice?

God is no fool.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Rev.,

As has been explained to you before but you were unable to comprehend it, Jesus died to reclaim our ability to live forever.

Wow, can’t believe it’s so simple. That answers everything.

Slough off the Calvinist lies that presently delude you and come into the Light of Christ.

I am not a Calvinist.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

Jesus became man to show us how to live. I don’t recall Him ever saying that all you had to do was say “I believe” and boom you are saved.

John 11:25-26:

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 

[Revelation13_16]

Fidelis, thankyou.

The reason Catholics believe that Christ’s sacrifice was “just the beginning” was that it was *redemptive in *nature. The shedding of Christ’s blood – his sacrifice on the Cross – *redeemed *all men – literally “bought them back” from sin – , closing the breach between God and man caused by original sin and our personal sins. Because of Jesus’ redemptive sacrifice on the Cross, we can place our faith in him and be baptized, i.e., be “saved.”.

If the Catholic view of Christ’s death “brought us back” from sin, then we should be as Adam was befoe eating of the fruit - perfect and sinless in the eyes of the lord, and having eternal life.

…One must, in context, continue reading in that chapter to see what “believes in him” means:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him. (v 36)

John chapter 3 is divided into two parts: Jesus & Nicodemus - John the Baptist.

You have quoted from verse 36, the last verse of chapter 3. The surrounding verses don’t clarify 36, so the context is moot. (John chapter 3 switches the story from Jesus & Nicodemus to John the Baptist at verse 22)

Regarding “belief” & “salvation”, John 3:16 is oft quoted without context, but that’s because the context only seems to reaffirm it, which makes it unecessary:

John 3:14-18 Jesus speaking

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "

What’s interesting about this is not John 3:16, but actually John 3:14-15.

Jesus says he must be lifted up like Moses lifted up the serpent.

Moses did this in Numbers chapter 21.

The people of Israel were whinging again, so God sent snakes among them and bit them, and many of the Israelites died. The Israelites repented and asked Moses to pray to God to stop the snakes. God told Moses to make an image of a snake on a pole, and that “everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live”. Moses made a bronze snake, set it on a pole, and if a snake bit anyone, that person would look at the bronze serpent and live.

Now, notice this.

All an Israelite who was bitten had to do, was to look at the bronze snake on a pole and believe (trust) it would make him live, by his faith he would live.

Now if Jesus says the same thing about himself - that he is like that bronze snake on a pole - how can anything more than faith be required so that we may live?

God Bless,
Rev

 

[rtconstant]

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Exactly.

Scripture says regarding wolves in sheep’s clothing that you will know them by their fruits.

Does the Holy Spirit produce the fruits of murder?

That is an avoidance of verse in question. Yes we will know them by their fruits but the fruits are necessary. The grace that we receive from Our Lord allows us to lead lives with fruits. It does not however force us to.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t make us do what is right He encourages us to do so.

Jesus said “I am the Way the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me.” Jesus in this verse defines Himself and His mission. Salvation is way of life and a path. Anyone can believe, not everyone can “carry the cross”.

“Narrow’s the way and strait is the gate which leads to righteousness.”

The path of the Christian is the path of the Cross. It is a path of sacrifice, humility, morality and leadership by example. Christ came to not only to extend the grace of entering Heaven but to change our lives. Our lives matter and there are consequences in it.

“The Kingdome of Heaven is now.”

 

[st_lucy]

John 11:25-26:

From today’s Gospel readings; Mark 8:34-9:1

Jesus summoned the crowd with his disciples and said to them,
“Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself,
take up his cross, and follow me.
For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it,
but whoever loses his life for my sake
and that of the Gospel will save it.
What profit is there for one to gain the whole world
and forfeit his life?
What could one give in exchange for his life?
Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words
in this faithless and sinful generation,
the Son of Man will be ashamed of
when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

He also said to them,
“Amen, I say to you,
there are some standing here who will not taste death
until they see that the Kingdom of God has come in power.”

When I heard this this morning I thought of you. We must learn to pick up our cross. What do you think our cross is. Do you believe that it is all flowers and sunshine? Our Lord showed us how to pick up our cross and follow Him. It is hard work, why do you think most will reject it?

Jesus words tell us to follow the commandments not just say we believe, we must also follow His commandments.

Also I really loved seek’s explanation. How do you answer that?

I also prayed for you today. I hope you did the same for me.

 

[Revelation13_16]

Don’t take this correction personally water, I don’t intend it to be.

They were in Heaven. Wasn’t Moses with Jesus during the Transfiguration? and other prophet was taken to Heaven alive

Nobody from earth was in Heaven.

Christ was the first in Heaven after he died, he opened it for everyone else.

Abraham, Moses, Enoch & Elijah (the two taken) were all in a place called “Abraham’s Bosom” - a Garden of Eden type of place.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[water]

Abraham, Moses, Enoch & Elijah (the two taken) were all in a place called “Abraham’s Bosom” - a Garden of Eden type of place.

God Bless,
Rev

I never heard of such place. Could you please explain further?

[note: just a simple question now, don’t make a big deal out of it as other thread we were on ]

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Hi CA,

So I’m thinking about mortal sin and the Catholic concept of salvation and I’m confused.

According to Catholicism (and correct me if I’m wrong) if a person converts to Catholicism as an adult, and get baptized, and then leaves the church and goes home.

And then Saturday night, he stays up late and watches football, and thinks “it’s ok, 3 hours sleep, I’ll go to Mass”.

He sleeps.

The alarm clock awakes him and he says “I can’t go, I’m too tired” and he sleeps until 4pm.

When he gets up, he can still make the 6pm mass but decides not to go, he’ll confess on Monday.

Unfortunately a plane crashes into his house and he dies on Sunday night.

So now our newly Baptized Catholic is dead, with a mortal sin on his soul, and presumably goes to hell because he never made it to confession to confess.

So, I’m just wondering why Jesus had to die, because this sounds alot like the Old Testament.

In the Old Testament, if you sinned you had to make atonement, people refer to the Old Covenant as the Covenant of Law, and the New Covenant as the Covenant of Grace.

But where is the grace if we still have to ritually atone to be cleansed?

I don’t understand why Jesus had to die?

Love,
Rev

He died to make atonement for our sins, his sacrifice was propitiatory. It turned away God’s anger.And he [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 Jn 2:2 KJV

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 Jn 4:10 KJV
The Sacrifice of Christ allowed God, to look with mercy on mankind once again since Adam’s sin and in doing so open the door for them to have eternal life.

Christ didnt die in such a manner that He substituted Himself (pre-paid) for your sins, which is what Protestantism claims. That concept is blasphemous once you take it to its logical conclusion. For example in your above example lets say the man converted to protestantism (he is saved because Jesus took the punishment for that man’s sins) and later the man became slothful as in your example. The problem is according to that theory Jesus took the punishment for the sins that man was yet to commit! In otherwords, Jesus pre-paid for that sin, now all that was left was for the man to sin in the natural course of history!

In Catholicism Jesus paved the way for us to be able to once again obey God and receive His rewards. When we sin, we are guilty but due to the merits of Jesus we can ask for foregiveness each time. In this manner God is still just and merciful, He still recognizes sin and punishes for sin but provides a means of recociliation (which we never deserved).

 

[Revelation13_16]

Exactly.

The Greek word here “zao” is used in the New Testament 143 times. It means simply “to live” in opposition of “to die” in almost all those uses. Here it is used in the present tense and with the mood corresponding to our english participle reflecting “-ing” or “-ed”.

So you could translate John 11:26 like this:

“And whoever is living and believes in me shall never die.”

This word (zao) is used in the exact same tense in Luke 20:38: “He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” (NIV)

If you want to check that the Greek usage in Luke 20:38 corresponds exactly to it’s usage in John 11:26, here is the evidence:

Luke 20:38
John 11:26

That is an avoidance of verse in question. Yes we will know them by their fruits but the fruits are necessary. The grace that we receive from Our Lord allows us to lead lives with fruits. It does not however force us to.

I do not believe any truly saved person could act so devilishly, their conversion was a false one.

Jesus said to Paul regarding the Holy Spirit’s power - “It’s hard to kick against the pricks”.

If one has the Holy Spirit, their heart and conscience would be convicted so greatly about doing such a thing I don’t think they could do it.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Revelation13_16]

I never heard of such place. Could you please explain further?

[note: just a simple question now, don’t make a big deal out of it as other thread we were on ]

It’s ok.

It’s mentioned in Luke 16:22 in the parable of the beggar and Lazurus.

God Bless,
Rev

 

[Mannyfit75]

Some would say the idea that we have to earn our salvation, cheapens Jesus’ death and resurrection, because it wasn’t in itself sufficient.

If so, why would God endure such a terrible pain if it was only “half sufficient” for us?

The death and resurrection made it sufficient and possible for us to be saved. We as Christians have a duty to be obedient to God’s commandments. The Bible does not even say, "Believe in the Gospel, and don’t obey the commandments. We have to persevere to the end, which means. “We are to remain obedient to God, and obey all his commandments; if we don’t we will not granted eternal life.”

Question: Who saves us?

God or us?

God saves. He give us the grace.

QIf you could look at this from St. Paul and answer the following question please.:

Ephesians 2:8-10

Q. The “it” (bolded above) is a pronoun (like he, she, you etc) that stands in place of a proper or common noun. What does the “it” represent here?

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Grace is from God. Grace is the source that keep us going to God, to give us faith, and by faith we do good deeds that is pleasing to God. As a Catholic, I don’t believe in Eternal Security or OSAS. It dangerous doctrine, and cheapens Jesus’ death and resurrections.

Apparently, Rev you believe in OSAS. I heard some Protestants would kill someone and feel secure that his salvation is saved. Sorry, buddy, OSAS is unbiblical.

[QUOTEThe devil believes but he doesn’t repent & trust, that’s why he’s going to hell, **belief alone is not sufficient.

Because angels who reject God through their own selfish was not granted to repent.

Humans can repent if they sin when they break God’s Commandments.

Scripture has tons of writings that a Christian can lose their faith.

 

[Mannyfit75]

1 John 2: 24-25
Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

2 John 9-11
Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work.

James 5: 19-20
My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

2 Peter 1: 10-11
Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 2: 20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

Matthew 7: 13-15
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the** way is hard**, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Romans 11: 20-21
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Hebrews 2: 1-3
Therefore we must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?

But the problem is a linguistic one.

The word “belief” actually translates poorly into English.

The Greek word also implies “trust”, this aspect of the word, is lost, like so many things that come into English from languages that are richer and more expressive in tenses and inflection.

God Bless,
Rev

Scripture is pretty clear salvation can be lost to those had it, and they sin. Don;'t fall for this erroneous doctrine. OSAS is unbiblical.