Why did Judas betray Jesus?

[tonyrey]

Hi tonyrey, thanks for sharing. We may have differing opinions about the betrayal, but I now have a better understanding of your sympathy towards people who are victims of possession. Peace be with you.

Personal experience is the best teacher. I can empathise with Judas because I’m not only a sinner but also worked in a psychiatric hospital where I have known men who committed suicide. No amount of reasoning could deter them even though in other respects they were as sane as you and I. One imagined he had stomach cancer and the other thought he had no reason to go on living, probably because he felt isolated and unloved but neither of them was overwhelmed by the unbearable sense of guilt which drove Judas to kill himself so quickly. They survived for several weeks and my friend for five months but for Judas it was all over in a matter of minutes. It may well have been Satan who plunged him into a state of such utter despair. Even Jesus felt His Father had abandoned Him on the Cross…

I think we underestimate Satan’s power. Surely that is why Jesus told us to be vigilant and pray to be delivered from evil. The worst of our enemies is invisible and intangible. To deny he exists or minimise his influence is to play right into his hands…

Peace be with you, bsy

 

[guanophore]

It seems unrealistic to draw a hard and fast distinction between the body and the soul. There are probably degrees of possession. My friend who committed suicide seemed normal in every respect except her obsession with killing herself and the tears pouring down her cheeks whenever she was at Mass with me. The only reason she went was because she was afraid of being on her own. But I shall never forget the day I said something to annoy her. I can’t remember what it was but the evil look in her eyes made me feel cold with fear. I have never had that experience before or since - and I’m not superstitious unless one includes belief in answers to prayer as superstition.

I know that look too, tonyrey and have seen it more times than I care to count.

I agree that it is difficult to draw a hard and fast distinction between body and soul, but I think the Church does this to distinquish between temptation, oppression, and possession. Judas did not demonstrate any of the signs we see in Scripture or that the Church identifies with possession, but he does demonstrate several of the signs of a person who slid or fell into temptation and whose conscience was seared, as with a hot iron.

We have no evidence in Scripture to make a differentiation between what happened with Peter, who became adversarial with Jesus, and Judas, who facilitated His act of redemption.

Personal experience is the best teacher. I can empathise with Judas because I’m not only a sinner but also worked in a psychiatric hospital where I have known men who committed suicide. No amount of reasoning could deter them even though in other respects they were as sane as you and I. One imagined he had stomach cancer and the other thought he had no reason to go on living, probably because he felt isolated and unloved but neither of them was overwhelmed by the unbearable sense of guilt which drove Judas to kill himself so quickly. They survived for several weeks and my friend for five months but for Judas it was all over in a matter of minutes. It may well have been Satan who plunged him into a state of such utter despair. Even Jesus felt His Father had abandoned Him on the Cross…

I think we underestimate Satan’s power. Surely that is why Jesus told us to be vigilant and pray to be delivered from evil. The worst of our enemies is invisible and intangible. To deny he exists or minimise his influence is to play right into his hands…

Peace be with you, bsy

One of Satan’s favorite tricks is to get himself off the radar so we don’t recognize what is happening. You are right that he is a liar and a murderer from the beginning. He loves to rob us of our birthright in Christ, and lead us into utter despair.

I have also worked with a number of suicidal people and I have come to expect significant oppression in suicidal people. They often don’t know that they are being attacked by Satan, and sometimes you can’t tell them!

But I think these kinds of oppression are not the same as possession.

 

[bsy]

Personal experience is the best teacher. I can empathise with Judas because I’m not only a sinner but also worked in a psychiatric hospital where I have known men who committed suicide. No amount of reasoning could deter them even though in other respects they were as sane as you and I. One imagined he had stomach cancer and the other thought he had no reason to go on living, probably because he felt isolated and unloved but neither of them was overwhelmed by the unbearable sense of guilt which drove Judas to kill himself so quickly. They survived for several weeks and my friend for five months but for Judas it was all over in a matter of minutes. It may well have been Satan who plunged him into a state of such utter despair. Even Jesus felt His Father had abandoned Him on the Cross…

I think we underestimate Satan’s power. Surely that is why Jesus told us to be vigilant and pray to be delivered from evil. The worst of our enemies is invisible and intangible. To deny he exists or minimise his influence is to play right into his hands…

Peace be with you, bsy

 

[bsy]

I know that look too, tonyrey and have seen it more times than I care to count.

I agree that it is difficult to draw a hard and fast distinction between body and soul, but I think the Church does this to distinquish between temptation, oppression, and possession. Judas did not demonstrate any of the signs we see in Scripture or that the Church identifies with possession, but he does demonstrate several of the signs of a person who slid or fell into temptation and whose conscience was seared, as with a hot iron.

We have no evidence in Scripture to make a differentiation between what happened with Peter, who became adversarial with Jesus, and Judas, who facilitated His act of redemption.

One of Satan’s favorite tricks is to get himself off the radar so we don’t recognize what is happening. You are right that he is a liar and a murderer from the beginning. He loves to rob us of our birthright in Christ, and lead us into utter despair.

I have also worked with a number of suicidal people and I have come to expect significant oppression in suicidal people. They often don’t know that they are being attacked by Satan, and sometimes you can’t tell them!

But I think these kinds of oppression are not the same as possession.

 

[simpleas]

So what are we saying here, that everyone in a psychiatric hospital is possessed at a certain level?
If so why are there not more exorcisms.

I am ignorant of any medical experience, but it seems certain medication helps people with degrees of depression. Would medication control a supernatural power too?

I never really thought of Judas being possessed, even though the scripture describes it as satan entering him. That seems to take away his own freewill and conscience. Jesus said he would betray him, so it was Judas that had to betray him, not another controlling force.
If satan possessed Judas only at that time and for that event, then it was not Judas himself.

I always thought of it being Judas himself, Jesus even telling him to go and do what he had to, to me Judas just didn’t believe who Jesus was, and thought that handing him over was the correct thing to do, and that it would give him ‘status’. He then regretted it when his conscience ‘kicked in’ realising that he had betrayed he close friend, handing him over to be beaten and killed. I think one would contemplate suicide in that situation, not matter who you are.

 

[tonyrey]

So what are we saying here, that everyone in a psychiatric hospital is possessed at a certain level?
If so why are there not more exorcisms.

Non sequitur!

I am ignorant of any medical experience, but it seems certain medication helps people with degrees of depression. Would medication control a supernatural power too?

Depression is not always the result of possession. In fact possession can give a person a distorted view of life which is hypermanic and ebullient!

I never really thought of Judas being possessed, even though the scripture describes it as satan entering him. That seems to take away his own freewill and conscience. Jesus said he would betray him, so it was Judas that had to betray him, not another controlling force.

Jesus also said “One of you is a devil”! He was no longer fully responsible for his decisions or actions but it was only a temporary state of affairs - as you point out.

If satan possessed Judas only at that time and for that event, then it was not Judas himself.

That is what possession means!

I always thought of it being Judas himself, Jesus even telling him to go and do what he had to, to me Judas just didn’t believe who Jesus was, and thought that handing him over was the correct thing to do, and that it would give him ‘status’. He then regretted it when his conscience ‘kicked in’ realising that he had betrayed he close friend, handing him over to be beaten and killed. I think one would contemplate suicide in that situation, not matter who you are.

Precisely! Judas came to his senses when he was confronted with harsh reality.

 

[tonyrey]

It seems unrealistic to draw a hard and fast distinction between the body and the soul. There are probably degrees of possession. My friend who committed suicide seemed normal in every respect except her obsession with killing herself and the tears pouring down her cheeks whenever she was at Mass with me. The only reason she went was because she was afraid of being on her own. But I shall never forget the day I said something to annoy her. I can’t remember what it was but the evil look in her eyes made me feel cold with fear. I have never had that experience before or since - and I’m not superstitious unless one includes belief in answers to prayer as superstition.

If it hasn’t made your blood run cold, guanophore, you haven’t seen the same type of look I saw! I’ve seen many nasty looks but that was unique and made her seem quite a different person to the one I knew. I felt I was in the presence of real malevolence whereas Carol wasn’t at all malicious. She was too depressed to feel ill will towards anyone.

I agree that it is difficult to draw a hard and fast distinction between body and soul, but I think the Church does this to distinguish between temptation, oppression, and possession. Judas did not demonstrate any of the signs we see in Scripture or that the Church identifies with possession, but he does demonstrate several of the signs of a person who slid or fell into temptation and whose conscience was seared, as with a hot iron.

The fact that Jesus referred to Judas as a devil is clear enough.

We have no evidence in Scripture to make a differentiation between what happened with Peter, who became adversarial with Jesus, and Judas, who facilitated His act of redemption.

There is a vast difference in the ways they behaved towards Jesus. Peter contradicted Him and Judas obeyed His command. Peter repented straightaway whereas Judas didn’t realise he needed to repent until he discovered the truth. Jesus told them both the truth but he admonished one and told the other to do what he had to do. As you point out, Peter was a hindrance to Jesus at that stage whereas Judas facilitated His act of redemption. Then their roles were reversed: Peter’s mission was about to begin and the role of Judas was about to end but they both died serving their Master - consciously in one case and unwittingly in the other. In that respect their roles were complementary.

Personal experience is the best teacher. I can empathise with Judas because I’m not only a sinner but also worked in a psychiatric hospital where I have known men who committed suicide. No amount of reasoning could deter them even though in other respects they were as sane as you and I. One imagined he had stomach cancer and the other thought he had no reason to go on living, probably because he felt isolated and unloved but neither of them was overwhelmed by the unbearable sense of guilt which drove Judas to kill himself so quickly. They survived for several weeks and my friend for five months but for Judas it was all over in a matter of minutes. It may well have been Satan who plunged him into a state of such utter despair. Even Jesus felt His Father had abandoned Him on the Cross…

I think we underestimate Satan’s power. Surely that is why Jesus told us to be vigilant and pray to be delivered from evil. The worst of our enemies is invisible and intangible. To deny he exists or minimise his influence is to play right into his hands…

One of Satan’s favorite tricks is to get himself off the radar so we don’t recognize what is happening. You are right that he is a liar and a murderer from the beginning. He loves to rob us of our birthright in Christ, and lead us into utter despair.

I have also worked with a number of suicidal people and I have come to expect significant oppression in suicidal people. They often don’t know that they are being attacked by Satan, and sometimes you can’t tell them!

But I think these kinds of oppression are not the same as possession.

You’re probably right. What really matters is that we ignore Satan at our peril.

 

[guanophore]

If it hasn't made your blood run cold, guanophore, you haven't seen the same type of look I saw! I've seen many nasty looks but that was unique and made her seem quite a different person to the one I knew. I felt I was in the presence of real malevolence,,,

Yes, blood running cold, hair standing up, icky feeling in the belly, prickles. I have worked with drug addicts, felons, sex offenders and Satanists and that is probably why I have seen it more often than the average person.

You can also understand why I might be so interested in the topic of choosing evil, posession, etc.

The fact that Jesus referred to Judas as a devil is clear enough.

There is a vast difference in the ways they behaved towards Jesus. Peter contradicted Him and Judas obeyed His command. Peter repented straightaway whereas Judas didn’t realise he needed to repent until he discovered the truth. Jesus told them both the truth but he admonished one and told the other to do what he had to do. As you point out, Peter was a hindrance to Jesus at that stage whereas Judas facilitated His act of redemption. Then their roles were reversed: Peter’s mission was about to begin and the role of Judas was about to end but they both died serving their Master - consciously in one case and unwittingly in the other. In that respect their roles were complementary.
You’re probably right. What really matters is that we ignore Satan at our peril.

I think that we also underestimate the danger of “little” sins. It is curious that the Gospels never mention any conflicts between the Apostles over Judas taking $ out of the purse, but it seems clear that it was an ongoing behavior. When we engage in these “minor” sins over a long period of time, it dulls the conscience. Instead, we need to have the attitude of Peter:

"But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus’ feet, saying, “Go away from me Lord, for I am a sinful man, O Lord!” Luke5:8-9

When we realize how we are not oriented toward the good, and our faith is lacking, we see ourselves in relation to Christ more accurately. Peter knew he was not worthy of Jesus, but Jesus never did “go away” from him. Instead, He grafted Peter into Himself as the cornerstone, and made him “rocky”.

We will never know how Judas may have had a different life had he taken this attitude of humility and self reflection. Instead, he turned aside from the ministry for which he was chosen.

 

[simpleas]

Non sequitur!

Depression is not always the result of possession. In fact possession can give a person a distorted view of life which is hypermanic and ebullient!

Jesus also said “One of you is a devil”! He was no longer fully responsible for his decisions or actions but it was only a temporary state of affairs - as you point out.
That is what possession means!

Precisely! Judas came to his senses when he was confronted with harsh reality.

Jesus would have known Judas was the one who would betray him from the moment he meet him, he was a thief after all, and Jesus knows what is believed by a person, knows their very heart. I don’t think Judas needed to be possessed by satan in order to carry out the betrayal is what I’m saying, if Judas was always a ‘devil’ Jesus knew he had his betrayer to fulfill his mission.

Like you say sins build up, if a person never realises what they are doing is sinful they will most likely commit a really ‘big’ sin. But this is not possession, this is a freewill person doing what they want for their personal gain, Possession is being completely controlled by an evil spirit, without freewill.

 

[guanophore]

So what are we saying here, that everyone in a psychiatric hospital is possessed at a certain level?

If so why are there not more exorcisms.

Of course not, but any kind of illness gives the devil a foothold. People that suffer from mental illnesses are at high risk of oppression. Negative and destructive thinking are part of depression, and the devil loves to jump in on that bandwagon so he can rob the children of God of their birthright, which is peace and joy.

I am ignorant of any medical experience, but it seems certain medication helps people with degrees of depression. Would medication control a supernatural power too?

I am not following you here.

The Church teaches that God has given man reason and intellectual ability and that we should use these to our utmost to improve our own quality of life and that of society. It was the Catholic Church that invented the hospital!

When we pray for the sick we also pray for the hands that help them. Is it wrong to ask for such supernatural help?

Anyway, research has proven that prayer is beneficial for sick people.

Science and religion are complimentary, not conflated.

I never really thought of Judas being possessed, even though the scripture describes it as satan entering him. That seems to take away his own freewill and conscience. Jesus said he would betray him, so it was Judas that had to betray him, not another controlling force.

Jesus prophesied what Judas would do because he had foreknowledge of what would happen, but Judas did not “have” to betray him. He chose to do it. He planned, executed, then regretted his action.

If satan possessed Judas only at that time and for that event, then it was not Judas himself.

Right. The Church teaches that a possessed person no longer can choose. The Scriptural account does not support this conclusion. Judas does not show the signs of possession as we see in other parts of Scripture, or that are recognized by the Church.

I always thought of it being Judas himself, Jesus even telling him to go and do what he had to, to me Judas just didn’t believe who Jesus was, and thought that handing him over was the correct thing to do, and that it would give him ‘status’. He then regretted it when his conscience ‘kicked in’ realising that he had betrayed he close friend, handing him over to be beaten and killed. I think one would contemplate suicide in that situation, not matter who you are.

I agree with you that Judas was being himself, and that he had ambitions. I think Judas did believe who Jesus was, and was convinced He would save Himself.

 

[guanophore]

Depression is not always the result of possession. In fact possession can give a person a distorted view of life which is hypermanic and ebullient!

I believe you may be thinking here of manic-depressive or bipolar illness. In that case it is not the depression that gives the hyper and ebullient reaction, it is the manic side of the bipolar illness.

There is no evidence in Scripture that Judas sufffered from a mental illness either.

Jesus also said “One of you is a devil”! He was no longer fully responsible for his decisions or actions but it was only a temporary state of affairs - as you point out. That is what possession means!

I don’t see that this is any different than Jesus telling Peter he was “satan”.

Besides, if Judas was a 'devil" when he was chosen, then the “temporary state of affairs” lasted for at leaste 3 years!

Precisely! Judas came to his senses when he was confronted with harsh reality.

Basically what you are saying is that he was not confronted with the “harsh reality” of who Jesus was for three years?

Jesus would have known Judas was the one who would betray him from the moment he meet him, he was a thief after all, and Jesus knows what is believed by a person, knows their very heart. I don't think Judas needed to be possessed by satan in order to carry out the betrayal is what I'm saying, if Judas was always a 'devil' Jesus knew he had his betrayer to fulfill his mission.

Scripture confirms this.

“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. (John 6:64)

Like you say sins build up, if a person never realises what they are doing is sinful they will most likely commit a really ‘big’ sin. But this is not possession, this is a freewill person doing what they want for their personal gain, Possession is being completely controlled by an evil spirit, without freewill.

Yes, this is what the Church teaches, but we are still left with trying to understand “satan entered into him”. Is this a form of extreme temptation or oppression? The free will is compromised by a lifestyle fo sinning, as well. Each time we sin, we make ourselves more of a slave to sin.

 

[tonyrey]

The fact that Jesus referred to Judas as a devil is clear enough.

There is a vast difference between premeditated treachery and petty theft. Most of us commit venial sins but it doesn’t follow that our conscience is dulled.

When we realize how we are not oriented toward the good, and our faith is lacking, we see ourselves in relation to Christ more accurately. Peter knew he was not worthy of Jesus, but Jesus never did “go away” from him. Instead, He grafted Peter into Himself as the cornerstone, and made him “rocky”.

You are implying Jesus “went away” from Judas, the very man he selected knowing he would fulfil the prophecy. Do you mean He abandoned Judas entirely?

We will never know how Judas may have had a different life had he taken this attitude of humility and self reflection. Instead, he turned aside from the ministry for which he was chosen.

Wasn’t Judas chosen because he would fulfil the prophecy?

 

[tonyrey]

Depression is not always the result of possession. In fact possession can give a person a distorted view of life which is hypermanic and ebullient!

I didn’t imply Judas suffered from a mental illness. I was pointing out that possession often leads to abnormal behaviour which is not pathological.

Jesus also said “One of you is a devil”! He was no longer fully responsible for his decisions or actions but it was only a temporary state of affairs - as you point out. That is what possession means!

I don’t see that this is any different than Jesus telling Peter he was “satan”.

Besides, if Judas was a 'devil" when he was chosen, then the “temporary state of affairs” lasted for at leaste 3 years!

Jesus referred to Satan **once **with regard to Peter but several times with regard to Judas. It doesn’t follow that Judas was possessed for three years but only at the critical moments in his life.

Precisely! Judas came to his senses when he was confronted with harsh reality.

Basically what you are saying is that he was not confronted with the "harsh reality" of who Jesus was for three years?

The harsh reality that Jesus had been condemned.

 

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by simpleas

I am ignorant of any medical experience, but it seems certain medication helps people with degrees of depression. Would medication control a supernatural power too?

Originally Posted by guanophore

I am not following you here.

The Church teaches that God has given man reason and intellectual ability and that we should use these to our utmost to improve our own quality of life and that of society. It was the Catholic Church that invented the hospital!

When we pray for the sick we also pray for the hands that help them. Is it wrong to ask for such supernatural help?

The supernatural I was referring to is satan. I meant that if medication can help control behaviors, which then gives people a better life than they would have if they were not on medication, then there is no possession taking place. But this was when I thought posters were saying that most psychiatric patients were possessed.

 

[tonyrey]

Jesus would have known Judas was the one who would betray him from the moment he meet him, he was a thief after all, and Jesus knows what is believed by a person, knows their very heart. I don’t think Judas needed to be possessed by satan in order to carry out the betrayal is what I’m saying, if Judas was always a ‘devil’ Jesus knew he had his betrayer to fulfill his mission.

St Luke:

The chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people. 3And** Satan entered into Judas **who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve. 4And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them.…

Nothing can be clearer than that.

Jesus would have known Judas was the one who would betray him from the moment he meet him, he was a thief after all, and Jesus knows what is believed by a person, knows their very heart. I don’t think Judas needed to be possessed by satan in order to carry out the betrayal is what I’m saying, if Judas was always a ‘devil’ Jesus knew he had his betrayer to fulfill his mission.

Jesus certainly knew the prophecy had to be fulfilled and who would do it.
St John:

Jesus then answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27After the morsel, Satan then entered into him.

Nothing can be clearer than that!

Like you say sins build up, if a person never realises what they are doing is sinful they will most likely commit a really ‘big’ sin. But this is not possession, this is a freewill person doing what they want for their personal gain, Possession is being completely controlled by an evil spirit, without freewill.

If it wasn’t possession how do you explain the words of Jesus Himself?

 

[simpleas]

I don’t think a life time of sinning makes a person more open to possession, if Judas was following Jesus’ teachings, but was still a sinner (like most of us) he may have just not believed enough in Jesus to not be tempted to take the money. Can’t know for sure obviously, but he surely was sorry for what he did.
I think the satan entering him part would need to be explored a lot more. Especially the part described in John were satan enters Judas right after Jesus dips the bread and gives it to Judas to eat.

I always thought a person had to willingly open/expose them self to an evil force before it could ever have any control over them. I don’t think scripture ever describes Judas as being satan like or a worshiper etc. He just seems to be described as a thief.

And I think it was inevitable that Judas would betray Jesus, that must have been why he was chosen among the twelve.

 

[guanophore]

There is a vast difference between premeditated treachery and petty theft. Most of us commit venial sins but it doesn't follow that our conscience is dulled.

There is no evidence that Judas premeditated “treachery”. If he truly believed that Jesus would save Himself, and set up His earthly Kingdom when He was finally face to face with the Sanhedrin, his despair afterward is explained. He did not get the outcome he was expecting.

Persistent commitment of venial sins does weaken the conscience.

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. “Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.”

1875 Venial sin constitutes a moral disorder that is reparable by charity, which it allows to subsist in us.

1876 The repetition of sins - even venial ones - engenders vices, among which are the capital sins.

The persistent stealing from the purse is the only sin mentioned, but there may have been others. It demonstrates a heart that is not oriented by the Spirit.

   You are implying Jesus "went away" from Judas, the very man he selected knowing he would fulfil the prophecy. Do you mean He abandoned Judas entirely?

I don’t see how. The Scriptures say that Judas “turned aside” from the ministry for which he was chosen.

  Wasn't Judas chosen because he would fulfil the prophecy?

I am sure that God could have fulfilled it any number of ways, but yes, I believe this is the case.

I didn’t imply Judas suffered from a mental illness. I was pointing out that possession often leads to abnormal behaviour which is not pathological.

Can you give an example?

Jesus referred to Satan **once **with regard to Peter but several times with regard to Judas. It doesn’t follow that Judas was possessed for three years but only at the critical moments in his life.

It is recorded several times, but that does not mean he said it many times.

Why do you supposed the text does not specify “posessed”, like it does for all the other people who needed exorcism? Why does Judas not demonstrate the signs of posession we see clearly in other people described as posessed?

It seems to me that you are trying very hard to find reason why Judas may not be culpable for his choices.

   The harsh reality that Jesus had been condemned.

IT seems like quite a stretch to me. There are so many instances where the Apostles are described as astonished, marvelling, amazed, etc. What you are saying is that Judas did not join them in any of these reactions to the person of Jesus?

 

[guanophore]

The supernatural I was referring to is satan. I meant that if medication can help control behaviors, which then gives people a better life than they would have if they were not on medication, then there is no possession taking place. But this was when I thought posters were saying that most psychiatric patients were possessed.

I don’t think taking medications prevents posession, but it diminishes the possibility. Satan gains a foothold where we are weak and vulnerable. If one has a medical condition, and takes their medications or works a recovery plan, they will be in better condition to resist evil.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t think a life time of sinning makes a person more open to possession, if Judas was following Jesus’ teachings, but was still a sinner (like most of us) he may have just not believed enough in Jesus to not be tempted to take the money. Can’t know for sure obviously, but he surely was sorry for what he did.

It is beyond all doubt that Judas was sorry for what he did. Why else would he have hanged himself? The words “I have betrayed innocent blood” are proof enough. They also show that he did believe in Jesus after having heard His teaching and witnessed His compassion and so many miracles. During the three years they were together his Master must have had a profound effect on him.

I think the satan entering him part would need to be explored a lot more. Especially the part described in John were satan enters Judas right after Jesus dips the bread and gives it to Judas to eat.

That is a very important point. It demonstrates not only Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him but also knew he was possessed and wanted him to act immediately to fulfil the prophecy. Why? Because the prospect of being crucified would make Him sweat blood later that night. He wanted the ordeal to be over as soon as possible. It must have troubled Him throughout His life. In a barbaric age He came to rescue us from the law of the jungle and must have seen men crucified and left hanging by the side of the roads. Judea was a hotbed of revolt where Roman soldiers were frequently assassinated. It is likely that two of the apostles were Zealots, one being Simon and the other Judas. The Jews hated each other intensely and both sides committed unspeakable atrocities. The Jews stoned women - not men - caught in adultery and the Romans enjoyed watching their victims fighting for their lives against each other and wild beasts. That is why the teaching of Jesus was revolutionary. The idea of loving your enemy was sheer madness and still is for many people today…

I always thought a person had to willingly open/expose them self to an evil force before it could ever have any control over them. I don’t think scripture ever describes Judas as being satan like or a worshiper etc. He just seems to be described as a thief.

I entirely agree. In all other respects he seems to have been a faithful follower of his Master. Probably the other apostles were envious of him because Jesus had selected him to be the treasurer and they may have exaggerated his dishonesty. We have no idea how many times he pilfered the common purse.

And I think it was inevitable that Judas would betray Jesus, that must have been why he was chosen among the twelve.

Why else would Jesus have chosen him?! It doesn’t mean Judas was entirely innocent but it does mean he wasn’t fully responsible for what he did. We tend to underestimate the power of evil but one English atheist philosopher, Professor CEM Joad, became a Christian because he realised there is no natural explanation for the diabolical atrocities committed cold-bloodedly and systematically by the Nazis over a period of years. Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints which implies they intervene on our behalf and work miracles for us. Yet we usually forget the malevolent source of temptations to live for ourselves and neglect those who need our help. In a secular society moral values are usually regarded as human conventions but in reality we are not isolated from the rest of Creation. Wherever there are rational beings there is a conflict between good and evil. The most fundamental fact of all is that we are either united by love or divided by selfishness.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t think a life time of sinning makes a person more open to possession, if Judas was following Jesus’ teachings, but was still a sinner (like most of us)he may have just not believed enough in Jesus to not be tempted to take the money. Can’t know for sure obviously, but he surely was sorry for what he did.

I agree with you apart from the suggestion that he may have just not believed enough in Jesus. Petty theft doesn’t seem to due to diminished belief in Jesus but an insignificant detail for a person who doesn’t have any money.

I think the satan entering him part would need to be explored a lot more. Especially the part described in John were satan enters Judas right after Jesus dips the bread and gives it to Judas to eat.

I agree with you. It seems symbolic because Jesus knew Judas wouldn’t be present at the last Supper. But symbolic of what? Not being united to Jesus when He consecrated the bread and wine? Or compassion for Judas because he wouldn’t receive His Body and Blood? Or was it just to indicate the identity of the traitor?

I always thought a person had to willingly open/expose them self to an evil force before it could ever have any control over them. I don’t think scripture ever describes Judas as being satan like or a worshiper etc. He just seems to be described as a thief

.In the case of Judas the prize must have been too valuable for Satan to resist. If he could tempt Jesus surely he could tempt Judas…

And I think it was inevitable that Judas would betray Jesus, that must have been why he was chosen among the twelve.

Of that there seems little doubt. But foreknowledge doesn’t exclude free will. Judas wasn’t completely innocent by any means.