Why did Lucifer fall?

[CrimsonThorn]

It seems like those who are closest to the source of power are those most tempted to want to be the one with that power, however, considering there was no devil at this moment who was there to tempt Lucifer into pride and into falling?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

There’s a bit at this link you might find useful. I’ve copies one paragraph only.

slideshare.net/pcuadra/the-devil-catholic-teachings-part-i

1. What was the caused of the fall of the angels? Although the fall of the angels is certain, it is not certain what was the cause of their fall. The Church has never made any official pronouncement on that. The most common hypothesis regarding the fall of the angels are based on the thought of the Fathers of the Church and the scholastics. There are three basic arguments as to what caused the angels to sin: A. Pride B. Jealousy and envy towards

Frankly I don’t think there’s much value in trying to psycho-analyse the devil. He doesn’t think like us, has much greater powers, and is spiritual only. He was the source of his own temptation, which is possbily why there is no salvation for demons. Their fall is irrevocable.

 

[po18guy]

Pride.

 

[fhansen]

Pride.

Yes, but if Lucifer was made good and pride is wrong/sinful, then where did it come from? Is pride just a twisted version of another good: self-love/self-respect, or is it derived from nothing else. It reminds me of Augustine’s statement, “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”.

Maybe, as with the temptation that Lucifer gave to Eve, the same fruit was attractive to him, the fruit of “being like God”. And why not? To be like God is an undeniable good. But only God can be like God without depending on anyone else- because He is God, of course. Evil is said to always oppose reason in some way. Can it be said that evil, originally, is nothing more than the obstinately unreasonable refusal of creation to accept the reality that they will always be inferior to God, IOW that we aren’t God? Can pride be said to be shame of that inferiority, of our “creatureliness”, or a reaction to that shame anyway?

Maybe the unavoidable “fault” in Lucifer or Adam was simply that they weren’t God, a fault or inherent imperfection that ironically could allow for the unreasonable proposition, in their minds, that they could be.

 

[Bigman]

Wouldn’t the devil be an integral part of gods plan?
Maybe he didn’t do anything wrong, he just got pushed under the bus because god needed someone to handle temptation.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

The Scripture tells us it was envy.

Wisdom 2:23-24
23 For God formed us to be imperishable;
the image of his own nature he made us.
24 But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world,
and they who are allied with him experience it.

 

[po18guy]

Yes, but if Lucifer was made good and pride is wrong/sinful, then where did it come from? Is pride just a twisted version of another good: self-love/self-respect, or is it derived from nothing else. It reminds me of Augustine’s statement, “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”.

Maybe, as with the temptation that Lucifer gave to Eve, the same fruit was attractive to him, the fruit of “being like God”. And why not? To be like God is an undeniable good. But only God can be like God without depending on anyone else- because He is God, of course. Evil is said to always oppose reason in some way. Can it be said that evil, originally, is nothing more than the obstinately unreasonable refusal of creation to accept the reality that they will always be inferior to God, IOW that we aren’t God? Can pride be said to be shame of that inferiority, of our “creatureliness”, or a reaction to that shame anyway?

Maybe the unavoidable “fault” in Lucifer or Adam was simply that they weren’t God, a fault or inherent imperfection that ironically could allow for the unreasonable proposition, in their minds, that they could be.

It comes from the freedom that God granted us at creation. The angels had free will, just as we do. Yet, they chose once for all time Whom they would serve, while we can always repent and choose God.

 

[po18guy]

Wouldn’t the devil be an integral part of gods plan?
Maybe he didn’t do anything wrong, he just got pushed under the bus because god needed someone to handle temptation.

We believe that God knew all since eternity, yet, out of love, gave us all the free will to choose or reject Him. The nature of love is a decision to love, or to not love. Knowing that evil would come, He created all and left free will intact, out of pure love of us. Love cannot be forced, and is true only when voluntary.

This is mirrored in human life: We know that evil will come to any and all children that we receive, yet out of love, we conceive them anyway. They may grow to love or to reject their parents. This is but a shadow of God’s action, but provides an analogy.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Wouldn’t the devil be an integral part of gods plan?
Maybe he didn’t do anything wrong, he just got pushed under the bus because god needed someone to handle temptation.

I think God does use him. I’m Catholic and not Calvinist, but I tend to partly agree with Calvin’s assertion that “Satan is properly said, therefore, to act in the reprobate over whom he exercises his reign, that is, the reign of wickedness. God is also said to act in His own manner, in that Satan himself, since he is the instrument of God’s wrath, bends himself hither and thither at His beck and command to execute His just judgements”.

I don’t think Satan bends himself at God’s command, but is always opposed to God. Yet if someone rejects God, then that person is handed over to the devil. In the final analysis, we end up serving one of two masters, even if by default. There is no other option.

By that I mean we can serve the devil without meaning to. I"ve said before, and I know you’re an atheist, so you won’t believe me anyway, my father appeared in my room the night he died. After apologising for years of deliberate cruelty, he also admitted “I served the devil. You do too, but you’ll become a Christian…” I was an atheist myself at the time.

Now he was quite intentional in his cruelty, but at no time do I think he had an inkling he was “serving the devil”. But he did. However, my father also admitted “I was WILLING” (to act as he did).

I doubt if God would get any pleasure from torturing people, but the devil does. So he’s the “instrument of God’s wrath” in that respect. I also remember the terrible scream my father gave just before he disappeared at the end of that episode. It was clear something was coming for him - the master he had unintentiallly served I suppose, had shown himsefl in his true colours, and my father screamed in sheer terror right to the core. Then he just disappeared.

I don’t have much doubt he was part of God’s plan in this respect, but he also would have been WILLING to do what he did. Pontius Pilate may have served God in the sense of crucifying God’s Son as part of the plan of redemption, but in the end he was WILLING to pass the sentence, even if reluctantly. His sense of self preservation won out over any moral qualms or fears he may have had.

He may have been predestined in that respect, just as Judas Iscariot was predestined to be the “one who must be lost”, but both of them were quite WILLING.

 

[fhansen]

It comes from the freedom that God granted us at creation. The angels had free will, just as we do. Yet, they chose once for all time Whom they would serve, while we can always repent and choose God.

But if everything was created good, then why/how would it make an evil choice?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

But if everything was created good, then why/how would it make an evil choice?

I have to assume that the only spiritual entity that “cannot” choose evil is God Himself.

If God is spirit, and angels and demons (fallen angels anyway) are also spiritual beings, then either God takes a part of Himself to form a new creature, or He creates a new spiritual being from nothing. I suspect it’s the former - that spiritual beings are a "bit of God’, like taking and planting a leaf from a plant and growing a new plant which can be done in some cases.

In doing so, there appears to be some loss of absolute holiness. The new creature can choose to either remain “implanted” in God in some fashion, as the good angels have done, or can rebel and break away. But in doing so, they sever themselves from the original fount of holiness.

But we won’t really know the answer to this until the day we die, and it’s revealed to us.

I have enought trouble with the devil as it is, without worrying about his pedigree certicate.

 

[po18guy]

Pride.

But if everything was created good, then why/how would it make an evil choice?

See above. Pride goes before the fall. Even the angels had the ability, the freedom, to love God or to reject Him. 1/3 chose poorly.

 

[Horatius]

But if everything was created good, then why/how would it make an evil choice?

Part of being created good is that you are created with the freedom to do evil. Having the option to do evil, and choosing to do good instead, is far, far superior to doing good out of compulsion. The angelic creation would have been less good if they had not had the freedom to rebel.

 

[Mortification]

See above. Pride goes before the fall. Even the angels had the ability, the freedom, to love God or to reject Him. 1/3 chose poorly.

1/3 of the angels chose poorly because Satan tempted them and talked them into it.

But there’s always temptation before any mortal sin, in which we have a very deliberate answer for. We know it to be either one of two things that do the tempting:

A. Satan
B. In our wounded human state because of original sin, ourselves aka The Human Ego

So the question is, if there was no devil in the very beginning, who was there to tempt Lucifer? If the answer is B and out of pride and selfishness, how could he be tempted by himself if Lucifer was an angel and not human, thus there being no wounded human nature or original sin for him to be weakened by?

 

[fhansen]

See above. Pride goes before the fall. Even the angels had the ability, the freedom, to love God or to reject Him. 1/3 chose poorly.

Ok, but, then, did God create pride? IOW, is pride a natural attribute of angels and men? I’d guess not, because pride is sinful, opposed to God. So where did Lucifer, a good creation of God, get it? Where did it come from?

 

[Horatius]

1/3 of the angels chose poorly because Satan tempted them and talked them into it.

But there’s always temptation before any mortal sin, in which we have a very deliberate answer for. We know it to be either one of two things that do the tempting:

A. Satan
B. In our wounded human state because of original sin, ourselves aka The Human Ego

So the question is, if there was no devil in the very beginning, who was there to tempt Lucifer?

This line of reasoning begs the question: Did humans before the Fall require an external agent in order to start sinning? Could they have chosen to sin spontaneously?

If the answer is B and out of pride and selfishness, how could he be tempted by himself if Lucifer was an angel and not human, thus there being no wounded human nature or original sin for him to be weakened by?

There was no wounded nature in Adam and Eve, either, when they made the decision to eat the fruit.

Original Sin is not a prerequisite to sin. It disorders us and makes us inclined to sin, but rational creatures can sin even without Original Sin.

 

[Horatius]

Ok, but, then, did God create pride? IOW, is pride a natural attribute of angels and men? I’d guess not, because pride is sinful, opposed to God. So where did Lucifer, a good creation of God, get it? Where did it come from?

Evil is not separate from good. It is a disordering of good. When you don’t love enough what you should love, or when you love something more than you should, then you are sinning. (The word for sin in Greek is hamartia, which literally means “missing the mark.”) Lucifer loved himself too much, to the extent of loving himself more than God. So we say that he was prideful.

 

[livingwordunity]

I recommend this:
scotthahn.com/hell-the-devil-demons-and-evil.html

 

[fhansen]

Evil is not separate from good. It is a disordering of good. When you don’t love enough what you should love, or when you love something more than you should, then you are sinning. (The word for sin in Greek is hamartia, which literally means “missing the mark.”) Lucifer loved himself too much, to the extent of loving himself more than God. So we say that he was prideful.

And that pride, that love of self over God, would be sin, breaking the first and greatest commandment. So how could sin exist in Gods creation to begin with? Unless that sin can be equated to- or be the result of-the unavoidable imperfection of creation relative to its Creator? Is that where the “flaw” lies? Creation can’t be as "good "as its perfect creator?

 

[Horatius]

And that pride, that love of self over God, would be sin, breaking the first and greatest commandment. So how could sin exist in Gods creation to begin with? Unless that sin can be equated to- or be the result of-the unavoidable imperfection of creation relative to its Creator? Is that where the “flaw” lies? Creation can’t be as "good "as its perfect creator?

No, it isn’t that.

When God designed angels, he built into them the ability to sin. It’s not a bug, it’s a feature (to use a computing phrase).