Why did Lucifer fall?

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No, it isn’t that.

When God designed angels, he built into them the ability to sin. It’s not a bug, it’s a feature (to use a computing phrase).
The “ability to sin”? I think you mean that He gave them the freedom to sin, the freedom to disobey Him, IOW. But I’m still trying to understand why they did it, why they chose wrongly, chose to sin. If pride came before the fall, what came before pride? What caused it?
 
The “ability to sin”? I think you mean that He gave them the freedom to sin, the freedom to disobey Him, IOW. But I’m still trying to understand why they did it, why they chose wrongly, chose to sin. If pride came before the fall, what came before pride? What caused it?
Before I go further, I want to make sure I understand where you’re coming from. Which of these would you agree with?

Given that there was not yet any evil in the world, then
a) the angels shouldn’t have known what sin was.
b) the angels would have known what sin was, but shouldn’t have known how to sin.
c) the angels would have known how to sin, but none of them would have been motivated to.
d) something else.

Sorry if this is pedantic. I just want to make sure we’re on the same page.
 
Before I go further, I want to make sure I understand where you’re coming from. Which of these would you agree with?

Given that there was not yet any evil in the world, then
a) the angels shouldn’t have known what sin was.
b) the angels would have known what sin was, but shouldn’t have known how to sin.
c) the angels would have known how to sin, but none of them would have been motivated to.
d) something else.

Sorry if this is pedantic. I just want to make sure we’re on the same page.
I find it hard to believe that they possessed the knowledge of evil and yet they must’ve known that what they were doing was wrong in order for God to hold them accountable for their actions. I’m mainly just not sure what motivated them, given the fact that they were created good and no evil, no sin, existed up til then.
 
Ok, but, then, did God create pride? IOW, is pride a natural attribute of angels and men? I’d guess not, because pride is sinful, opposed to God. So where did Lucifer, a good creation of God, get it? Where did it come from?
I do not believe that He created pride, but, to ensure our freedom (love must be a free choice), he allowed for it. There was no evil until God was rejected, and that was a product of the radical freedom that He gives to us - to choose or reject Him.
 
So the question is, if there was no devil in the very beginning, who was there to tempt Lucifer? If the answer is B and out of pride and selfishness, how could he be tempted by himself if Lucifer was an angel and not human, thus there being no wounded human nature or original sin for him to be weakened by?
This gets back to the freedom to choose - the ability to choose - that all spirits have at their creation. As I see it, the devil essentially allowed his pride and ego to lead himself astray. And, it was not so much that he chose evil, it was that he rejected the good. Now, this may appear circular, but his rejection of good was a part of the free will that he had from the beginning. Yet, it would not have been free will had he not the ability to reject the good. It is not a matter of choosing evil - rather, evil is the result of him rejecting the good.
 
I do not believe that He created pride, but, to ensure our freedom (love must be a free choice), he allowed for it. There was no evil until God was rejected, and that was a product of the radical freedom that He gives to us - to choose or reject Him.
Ok. But I still think my question is a valid one. There was no sin prior to the “original original” one, prior to Lucifer’s fall. Free will provides the explanation for how it is possible for a being to sin, but doesn’t give us a clue as to why they would sin. To be free to do wrong is one thing, to actually do wrong is another, especially if you’re created “right”. The only explanation I can find is that the combination of free will with a sentient, rational, created being is a potentially explosive one, one that God obviously considered to be worth it. And what makes the combination dangerous is simply that, regardless of how perfect that being was made, it nevertheless will always lack the perfection of God, and therefore lacks the perfect wisdom of God.

Maybe it can be said that, by creating anything at all, God created “evil”, in the sense that God created lesser goods, necessarily inferior to Him. All of creations’ goodness is derived from and dependent upon Him. Our goodness is relative, in a sense, and everything in creation remains in perfect obedience so long as no free will exists in it. But free will gives a created being the option of opposing Gods very will, and therefore opposing goodness, the right and proper order of things. So my question then becomes, ‘Was the fall of angels due indirectly to their simply not being God? Is God, alone , due to His uncreated perfect wisdom, incapable of falling-at least unless He chooses to grace us with the “ability not to sin”, as with Mary?’

The Catechism teaches that God created the world “in statu viae”, in a state of journeying towards perfection. It seems to me that free will gives us the ability to “express” our inherent inferiority, by freely excluding God from our consciousness, from our lives, or to embrace His superiority, His perfection, by consciously subjugating ourselves to and communing with Him. The difference *lies in our wills *, and a will unaligned with Gods will, and therefore out of communion with Him, is doomed to wallow in its imperfection, it’s integrity damaged by this disordered separation. It seems to me that the entire drama of the Fall and the subsequent history of man (with all the good and evil we experience here in a world effectively exiled from God) has the purpose, with the help of revelation/grace, of educating us, the hard way, over time, to this one simple fact, *we need Him. * His grace has the purpose of helping us to realize that we need grace, His life within.

So probably none of this is new- it just details my search for the “flaw” that resulted in the fall of God’s good creation.
 
This line of reasoning begs the question: Did humans before the Fall require an external agent in order to start sinning? Could they have chosen to sin spontaneously?

There was no wounded nature in Adam and Eve, either, when they made the decision to eat the fruit.

Original Sin is not a prerequisite to sin. It disorders us and makes us inclined to sin, but rational creatures can sin even without Original Sin.
Youre right, original sin isnt a pre requisite to sin. However in the case of Adam and Eve who had no original sin to weaken them, they had the devil who tempted them.

There was no such devil to tempt Lucifer and how was he able to fall victim to his own own self, like us because we are wounded, if he was without original sin?
 
Yet, evil is not the opposite of good - it is a lack of it. It is not a positive, but a negative. Not a presence, but an absence. Keeping that in mind, imperfect beings, beings subject to temptation, self-delusion and other faults - though originally sinless - are capable, even inclined, toward making imperfect choices. It is in those imperfect choices that good was lacking. The ultimate lack of good is on rejecting one’s own Creator. And, that lack of good is what we call evil. So, God did not (and could not) create evil, as it is impossible to create a lack of something. God, Whose nature is all good, existed from all eternity, so what we call evil did not exist, and is a condition which could not exist before creation. Yet, it was not created, but allowed to come into being. Departing from the all-Goodness of God is less than good. We call that less-than-good state evil. It exists in varying degrees, thus we cannot equate rudeness with genocide. Still, each reflects a lack of some degree of good. We seek good in imperfect ways, as that is our human condition.
 
As I said before, the Scripture says that it was envy. Envy is certainly related to pride but it is distinct. I believe that both pride and envy caused the devil to fall but not a lot of attention has been paid to the envy aspect it. Envy is the deep desire to have what someone else has, even to the point of wanting them to NOT have it. This is exactly what happened with satan. He saw what God had given man and he was envious; he wanted it and he wanted man to NOT have it. It became his life’s work (at his own peril) to take away the gift that God had given man. Read the passage I posted earlier (post 6). It tells what God gave to man and how the devil responded.
 
I’m mainly just not sure what motivated them, given the fact that they were created good and no evil, no sin, existed up til then.
I never thought about that before: Why should it even have occurred to them?

Remember though, a lack of Original Sin does not predispose you to choose good. It just means you’re neutral. You could go either way. 50/50. So while evil itself didn’t exist until Lucifer made the fateful choice, the potential for evil was there from the beginning.
Youre right, original sin isnt a pre requisite to sin. However in the case of Adam and Eve who had no original sin to weaken them, they had the devil who tempted them.
Why didn’t Eve just tell the serpent to buzz off? She was still in the state of Original Justice, after all. Nothing stopping her.

Evil doesn’t beget evil. Free choice begets evil.
 
Evil doesn’t beget evil. Free choice begets evil.
But does it? Free will is certainly a necessary ingredient, but I don’t think that free will, a good in itself, can be the sole direct cause of evil.
 
As I said before, the Scripture says that it was envy. Envy is certainly related to pride but it is distinct. I believe that both pride and envy caused the devil to fall but not a lot of attention has been paid to the envy aspect it. Envy is the deep desire to have what someone else has, even to the point of wanting them to NOT have it. This is exactly what happened with satan. He saw what God had given man and he was envious; he wanted it and he wanted man to NOT have it. It became his life’s work (at his own peril) to take away the gift that God had given man. Read the passage I posted earlier (post 6). It tells what God gave to man and how the devil responded.
But jealousy/envy and pride are considered to be sins in themselves. So where did they come from?
 
Yet, evil is not the opposite of good - it is a lack of it. It is not a positive, but a negative. Not a presence, but an absence. Keeping that in mind, imperfect beings, beings subject to temptation, self-delusion and other faults - though originally sinless - are capable, even inclined, toward making imperfect choices. It is in those imperfect choices that good was lacking. The ultimate lack of good is on rejecting one’s own Creator. And, that lack of good is what we call evil. So, God did not (and could not) create evil, as it is impossible to create a lack of something. God, Whose nature is all good, existed from all eternity, so what we call evil did not exist, and is a condition which could not exist before creation. Yet, it was not created, but allowed to come into being. Departing from the all-Goodness of God is less than good. We call that less-than-good state evil. It exists in varying degrees, thus we cannot equate rudeness with genocide. Still, each reflects a lack of some degree of good. We seek good in imperfect ways, as that is our human condition.
Augustine said that the perfection of man is to find out his own imperfections. Maybe it could be said that the imperfection of Lucifer-and later Adam-was manifested in the ultimate act of imperfection: thinking he was perfect, in no need of God, i.e. thinking he was God for all practical purposes.

But there’s still a conflict here it seems. Sin can’t be said to be due solely to either free will, as if sin is the natural direct effect of free will, or due solely to imperfection, because then it seems that sin might be reduced to nothing more than an imperfect choice made by an imperfect being, and how could justice be served by punishment in that case?

I read that it was revealed to St Faustina that the angels were held to a high degree of accountability for rebellion because they’d been given a much deeper and more profound knowledge of God than man had. I guess I’m still asking, however, where did evil come from to begin with? What caused lesser goods to be coveted over greater ones, what caused the self to be preferred over God?
 
It seems like those who are closest to the source of power are those most tempted to want to be the one with that power, however, considering there was no devil at this moment who was there to tempt Lucifer into pride and into falling?
I like the way that Venerable Mary of Agreda explains it in The Mystical City of God:

CREATION OF THE ANGELS AND THE FALL OF LUCIFER

The angels were created in the empyrean heavens and in the state of grace by which they might be first to merit the reward of glory. For although they were in the midst of glory, the Divinity itself was not to be made manifest to them face to face and unveiled, until they should have merited such a favor by obeying the divine will. The holy angels, as well as the bad ones, remained only a very short time in the state of probation; for their creation and probation with its result were three distinct instants or moments, separated by short intermissions. In the first instant they were all created and endowed with graces and gifts, coming into existence as most beautiful and perfect creatures. Then followed a short pause, during which the will of the Creator was propounded and intimated, and the law and command was given to them, to acknowledge Him as their Maker and supreme Lord, and to fulfill the end for which they have been created. During this pause, instant or interval, Saint Michael and his angels fought that great battle with the dragon and his followers, which is described by the apostle Saint John in the twelfth chapter of the Apocalypse. The good angels, persevering in grace, merited eternal happiness and the disobedient ones, rebelling against God, merited the punishment, which they now suffer.

At first they received a more explicit intelligence of the being of God, one in substance, trine in person, and that they were commanded to adore and reverence Him as their Creator and highest Lord, infinite in his essence and attributes. All subjected themselves to this command and obeyed it, but with a certain difference; the good angels obeyed through love and on account of the justice of it, offering their love and good will, freely and admitting and believing what was above their intelligence, and obeying with joy. Lucifer, on the other hand, submitted himself, because the opposite seemed to him impossible. He did not do it with perfect charity, for he, as it were, was divided in his will between himself and the infallible truth of the Lord. In consequence it happened that the precept appeared to him in a measure difficult and violent, and his fulfilling of it was wanting in love and in the desire to do justice. Thus he exposed himself beforehand to the danger of not persevering. Although grace did not leave him on account of this remissness and slowness in the accomplishment of these first acts, nevertheless his bad disposition began with them; for there remained with him a certain weakness and laxity of virtue and spirit, and the perfection of his nature did not shine forth as it should. It appears to me that the effect of this remissness in Lucifer, is similar to that which is caused in the soul by a deliberate venial sin. I do not say that he sinned mortally, nor even venially at that time, since he fulfilled the precept of God; but this fulfillment was remiss and imperfect, springing more from a sense of overwhelming compulsion, than from a loving willingness to obey. Thus he put himself in danger of falling.

In the second place, the angels were informed that God was to create a human nature and reasoning creatures lower than themselves, in order that they too should love, fear and reverence God, as their Author and eternal Good. They were informed that these were to stand in high favor, and that the second Person of the blessed Trinity was to become incarnate and assume their nature, raising it to the hypostatic union and to divine Personality; that therefore they were to acknowledge Him as their Head, not only as God, but as God and man, adoring Him and reverencing Him as God-man. Moreover, these same angels were to be his inferiors in dignity and grace and were to be his servants. God gave them an intelligence of the propriety and equity, of the justice and reasonableness of such a position. For the acceptation of the merits foreseen of this Mangod was exhibited to them as the source of the grace which they now possessed and of the glory which they were to obtain. They understood also that they themselves had been, and all the rest of the creatures should be created for his glory, and that He was to be their Head. All those that were capable of knowing and enjoying God, were to be the people of the Son of God, to know and reverence Him as their Chief. These commands were at once given to the angels.

To this command all the obedient and holy angels submitted themselves and they gave their full assent and acknowledgment with an humble and loving subjection of the will. But Lucifer, full of envy and pride, resisted and induced his followers to resist likewise, as they in reality did, preferring to follow him and disobey the divine command. This wicked prince persuaded them, that he would be their chief and that he would set up a government independent and separate from Christ. So great was the blindness which envy and pride could cause in an angel, and so pernicious was the infection that the contagion of sin spread among innumerable other angels…

Continued…
 
It seems like those who are closest to the source of power are those most tempted to want to be the one with that power, however, considering there was no devil at this moment who was there to tempt Lucifer into pride and into falling?
Continued…

Then happened that great battle in heaven, which St. John describes (Apoc. 12). For the obedient and holy angels, filled with an ardent desire of hastening the glory of the Most High and the honor of the incarnate Word, to resist and contradict the dragon, and the permission was granted. But also another mystery was concealed in all this: When it was revealed to the angels that they would have to obey the incarnate Word, another, a third precept was given them, namely, that they were to admit as a superior conjointly with Him, a Woman, in whose womb the Only begotten of the Father was to assume flesh and that this Woman was to be the Queen and Mistress of all the creatures. The good angels by obeying this command of the Lord, with still increasing and more alert humility, freely subjected themselves, praising the power and the mysteries of the Most High. Lucifer, however, and his confederates, rose to a higher pitch of pride and boastful insolence. In disorderly fury he aspired to be himself the head of all the human race and of the angelic orders, and if there was to be a hypostatic union, he demanded that it be consummated in him.

The decree constituting him inferior to the Mother of the Incarnate Word, our Mistress, he opposed with horrible blasphemies. Turning against the Author of these great wonders in unbridled indignation and calling upon the other angels, he exhorted them, saying: “Unjust are these commands and injury is done to my greatness; this human nature which Thou, Lord, lookest upon with so much love and which thou favorest so highly, I will persecute and destroy. To this end I will direct all my power and all my aspirations. And this Woman, Mother of the Word, I will hurl from the position in which Thou hast proposed to place Her, and at my hands, the plan, which Thou settest up, shall come to naught.”

This proud boast so aroused the indignation of the Lord that in order to humble it, He spoke to Lucifer: “This Woman whom thou refusest to honor, shall crush thy head and by Her shalt thou be vanquished and annihilated (Gen. 3, 15). And if, through thy pride, death enters into the world (Wis. 2, 24), life and salvation of mortals shall enter through the humility of this Woman. Those that are of the nature and likeness of that Man and Woman, shall enjoy the gifts and the crowns, which thou and thy followers have lost.” To all this the dragon, filled with indignation against whatever he understood of the divine will and decrees, answered only with pride and by threatening destruction to the whole human race. The good angels saw the just indignation of the Most High against Lucifer and his apostates and they combated them with the arms of the understanding, reason and truth.

The Almighty at this conjuncture worked another wonderful mystery. Having given to all the angels a sufficiently clear intelligence of the hypostatic Union, He showed them the image of the most holy Virgin by means of an imaginary vision (I speak here according to our way of understanding such things). They were shown the perfection of the human nature in the revelation of an image representing a most perfect Woman, in whom the almighty arm of the Most High would work more wonderfully than in all the rest of the creatures. For therein He was to deposit the graces and gifts of his right hand in a higher and more eminent manner. This sign or vision of the Queen of heaven and of the Mother of the incarnate Word was made known and manifest to all the angels, good and bad. The good ones at the sign of it broke forth in admiration and in canticles of praise and from that time on began to defend the honor of the God incarnate and of his holy Mother, being armed with ardent zeal and with the invincible shield of that vision. The dragon and his allies on the contrary conceived implacable hatred and fury against Christ and his most holy Mother.
 
I like the way that Venerable Mary of Agreda explains it in The Mystical City of God/]
…

Thanks for all that. There’s certainly a pattern represented here, of humility and love vs pride and envy. And I think fear- the wrong kind-is also a factor in there as a counterpart to pride, and something also opposed to love.
 
Some other works that deal with this question:

St. Augustine, The City of God, Book 12, Chapters 1–9
St. Anselm, De casu diaboli
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, First Part, Questions 50–64, especially Question 63
 
Augustine said that the perfection of man is to find out his own imperfections. Maybe it could be said that the imperfection of Lucifer-and later Adam-was manifested in the ultimate act of imperfection: thinking he was perfect, in no need of God, i.e. thinking he was God for all practical purposes.

But there’s still a conflict here it seems. Sin can’t be said to be due solely to either free will, as if sin is the natural direct effect of free will, or due solely to imperfection, because then it seems that sin might be reduced to nothing more than an imperfect choice made by an imperfect being, and how could justice be served by punishment in that case?

I read that it was revealed to St Faustina that the angels were held to a high degree of accountability for rebellion because they’d been given a much deeper and more profound knowledge of God than man had. I guess I’m still asking, however, where did evil come from to begin with? What caused lesser goods to be coveted over greater ones, what caused the self to be preferred over God?
Justice is served because the one who makes the decision to accept or reject God knows of God’s goodness. God’s law is written on our hearts and our senses can perceive God’s goodness in all of creation. We have an ego so that we may love ourselves as the image and likeness of God. It is the disordered use of that ego that causes trouble. At some level, because of the ego, the disordered use of free will in preferring the self and rejecting God was always a possibility, otherwise we have no freedom. The preference of the self and the rejection of God is clear in Genesis 3.

As to evil, again it is not a something, not an existence, but a lack of existence. It is a negative and cannot exist side-by-side with goodness, as it is a lack of goodness. It is anti-creation. Swiss theologian Karl Barth called the devil the “Null” (the zero). Imagine being locked in a vacuum chamber with no oxygen, no atmosphere. Imagine the pain and torture that would result, as the vacuum is anti-life by its nature, as is evil. Evil is anti-creation that corrodes or destroys creation. Suffering is life (creation) that is exposed to anti-life (un-creation).
 
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