Why did so many people admire Christopher Hitchens?

[Freddy]

FiveLinden:

My problem with his writing is that he uses facts as needed to bolster his opinions rather than seeking and revealing them as of interest in themselves and then expressing a conclusion.

That is usually the preferred method of contrarians and polemicists. I didn’t read the whole of The God Delusion, but I read enough to get the impression that Dawkins had to a large extent trawled fundamentalist Christian websites seeking heterodox and anomalous opinions that seemed to prove all his worst assumptions about Christianity. He then struggles when he encounters moderate Christians, because it often seems that the only kind of Christians he really wants to engage with are the ones who are completely unreasonable and easily rebutted. A third strand of his thinking is his odd cultural attachment to Anglicanism, which he seems to regard as an acceptable form of Christianity on the grounds that it is the default religion of upper-class English people such as himself. I appreciate that his deviates from Hitchens, but I find it difficult to think of the one and not the other.

Did we flip to discussing Dawkins? Anyway, if you’re not from the UK you might get the impression from BBC murder mysteries that Anglican churches are run by some bumbling old vicar in quaint English villages presiding over meetings of the local women’s knitting society over tea and cucumber sanwhiches and milky tea.

My family was Anglican and we were about as working class as you could possibly be (think Pythons Yorkshireman sketch: ‘Outdoor toilet? You were lucky!’).

And Dawkins doesn’t attack religion as such (as opposed to Hitchins). He generally attacks fundamentalist positions. Specifically those that deny science. To accuse him of only doing that seems to miss the point. And he does have a soft spot for Anglicanism (as do I) as he was brought up as an Anglican. But he has argued that religious beliefs strong enough to result in violence (he was thinking Muslim terrorists at the time) is just an extreme example of the same beliefs that the little old lady holds in that quaint Anglican chilurch in the picture postcard English village.

I see his point, but he’s drawing a very long bow there. You could work the connection backwards but I don’t think you can forwards.

Edit: I just noticed the name. Scouse kiwi? Well, maybe you were born in sight of the Liver birds so you’d know about English church society. Mostly Catholic up there though.

 

[tomarin]

Journalism and arch Britishness.

 

[bruisedreed]

A lot of the stuff he said makes my blood boil, but I think in the end he really was out to seek the truth and he had a really strong sense of justice which fired people up. He hated the evil that was done in the name of Christianity, and other religions also. He was often cleverer than his interlocutors, he pointed out real hypocrisies and weak argumentation. People like that are a great boon to the Church because they force us not to be complacent in the use of our brains. He also humbled people who thought they could get the better of him.

I personally used to hate him but I learned that a lot of this was insecurity, because truth be told I was watching him on YouTube and I couldn’t figure out how I would deflect his jabs and rebut his arguments any better than the person he was speaking to. So when you feel insecure you tend to demean and dismiss. But he represents the voice of a vast number of people, so it’s important to learn how to talk with those like him.

 

[StudentMI]

I admired his writing skills. His prose was great.

 

[CelticWarlord]

I’ve been watching a few debates featuring Christopher Hitchens over the last few days, and just can’t understand what people found attractive about him.

I can’t say I admire him in any way but he does add an important aspect to the conversation. HItchens and others like him, Dawkins and Harris come to mind, are very good at exposing bad religion. Since there is plenty of that in the world today, my own thinking is that anything that gets we folks of faith to stop and take stock every once in a while, to critically examine ourselves, it can be a fair conclusion to say his cause might be deemed as having decent side effects. However, I have yet to find myself in the majority in taking this view.

 

[DeniseNY]

Any thoughts?

He spoke his mind. Regardless of whether or not one agreed with him or not, you always knew where he was coming from.

 

[Inquisitor85]

(And I still say that the mainstream media dubbed conservative, Republican states “red states”

I find it amusing that the American Right is associated with red, when everywhere else in the world it’s the colour of the Left. After all the USSR didn’t have a Blue Army did it?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

(And I still say that the mainstream media dubbed conservative, Republican states “red states”

I find it amusing that the American Right is associated with red, when everywhere else in the world it’s the colour of the Left. After all the USSR didn’t have a Blue Army did it?

I suspect that it was an effort by the mainstream media (which, for those who have been living under a rock the past 50 years, skews liberal and “progressive”) both to portray “red” conservatives as intemperate, intolerant, crazy people, gun-toting, Bible-waving loose cannons on the deck and to keep red from being associated with liberals because, you know… socialism and communism. I’m told that I’m overthinking it (we’ve discussed this on CAF before) — I don’t think I’m “overthinking” it at all.

 

[Inquisitor85]

Well it originates from the 2000 Presidential Election as far as I’m aware, it was the first time the major networks randomly selected red for the Republicans and blue for the Democrats. Given that Murdochs Fox News Channel did the same thing, I doubt it was a conspiracy by the networks.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Well it originates from the 2000 Presidential Election as far as I’m aware, it was the first time the major networks randomly selected red for the Republicans and blue for the Democrats. Given that Murdochs Fox News Channel did the same thing, I doubt it was a conspiracy by the networks.

I cannot believe it was random. I have to wonder if the MSM plays “good cop, bad cop”, CNN and the broadcast networks being “bad cop”, and Fox, possibly along with Sinclair, being “good cop”.

I watch them all, and make up my own mind.

 

[Inquisitor85]

Edit: I just noticed the name. Scouse kiwi? Well, maybe you were born in sight of the Liver birds so you’d know about English church society. Mostly Catholic up there though

We have got quite a swishy Anglican Cathedral here Freddy, huge Neo-Gothic sandstone building.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Inquisitor85]

I cannot believe it was random. I have to wonder if the MSM plays “good cop, bad cop”, CNN and the broadcast networks being “bad cop”, and Fox, possibly along with Sinclair, being “good cop”.

I watch them all, and make up my own mind.

Probably the best way. I know the US “big three” are CNN, MSNBC and Fox News Channel, but who are Sinclair?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I cannot believe it was random. I have to wonder if the MSM plays “good cop, bad cop”, CNN and the broadcast networks being “bad cop”, and Fox, possibly along with Sinclair, being “good cop”.

I watch them all, and make up my own mind.

Probably the best way. I know the US “big three” are CNN, MSNBC and Fox News Channel, but who are Sinclair?

They are a chain of broadcast TV stations, affiliated with any of the “big four” TV networks (CBS/ABC/NBC/FOX), and their news and editorial divisions skew conservative. In essence they are a “mini-Fox”. The other two really huge chains are Tegna and Gray, and they, like Sinclair, have affiliates of all four networks. I think their editorial policies are more mainstream.

They are not “networks” per se, they are just very large ownership groups of broadcast TV stations. The graphics and bumper music “look and feel” of all Tegna TV stations I’ve seen are basically identical (funky ethereal beatbox-like intro music), in fact, I’ve had to stop and pause to realize what market the Tegna TV station I’m watching is from — they all look alike.

Quirky local TV news with sui generis personalities is quickly fading from American television. Marty Bass from WJZ Baltimore immediately comes to mind.

 

[Inquisitor85]

Quirky local TV news with sui generis personalities is quickly fading from American television. Marty Bass from WJZ Baltimore immediately comes to mind.

Same thing happened over here, once Carlton and Granada merged to form ITV plc, prior to that the local news on commercial reflected its franchise area. BBC always had a corporate look and feel, with lots of RP accents, ITV had regional accents and better local knowledge, sad times.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Edit: I just noticed the name. Scouse kiwi? Well, maybe you were born in sight of the Liver birds so you’d know about English church society. Mostly Catholic up there though

We have got quite a swishy Anglican Cathedral here Freddy, huge Neo-Gothic sandstone building.

This was mine. Not so impressive I’m afraid.

https://www.google.com/local/place/...v=100&ik=CAISFmE0QTNSM2V2eFhSdHIzb2ZxR3hkcHc=

Ye gods, the amount of time I spent in there. Head choirboy doncha know! I lived a couple of hundred meters down tbe road.

 

[Inquisitor85]

They aren’t all that grand, this is St Brides which is CofE and where we did the typical “pretend to be CofE so our child can be baptised to get in a better school”.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Freddy]

They aren’t all that grand, this is St Brides which is CofE and where we did the typical “pretend to be CofE so our child can be baptised to get in a better school”.

Nice looking church. But I never agree in doing that. The best school in the area for my son was (and still is) a Catholic one (not cheap either…). I don’t know how genuine were all the parents of his friends as regards their Catholicism but all his friends were going there and my wife was adamant that he was as well. They allowed 10% of non Catholics to attend (I think they were actually obliged in order to access government funding).

My wife put down C of E on the entrance forms (a cultural Anglican but has never been to church in the decades we have been together). And I told her that I was putting down n/a. And if they asked at the interview I would tell them I was an atheist. I can’t tell you how much stress this caused us. If he didn’t get in then there would have been a serious problem.

She even went so far to see the priest at our local Catholic church (without me knowing) and said she was thinking of becoming Catholic. And after a short talk she admitted it was just to get our boy in school. He suggested that there was a little more involved in the decision than being able to choose a school and sent her away to rethink the matter.

I was blazingly angry when she told me.

The way I see it is that I honestly believe that anyone who claims a religion is completely and utterly wrong about the world and our position in it. Hopelessly wrong. But that’s just my personal view. And I’m equally certain that those who state a belief should have their beliefs treated with respect (there are many exceptions to this but we can skip them). My parents for example lived their lives based on their belief and I think my wife, in treating Catholicism in this case, as a means to an end, showed a lot of disrespect for people who have honestly held beliefs.

We discussed the matter briefly shortly after, after the dust had settled (and after he’d been accepted) and she admitted that she’d been hopelessly wrong. But her instincts to do as much as she could for our son overrode all rational decision making.

And I’ve a very good friend who went through a baptism for his boy when his lad was a year or so old. Just in case, as it were. It’s a personal choice. Just one with which I don’t agree.

 

[FiveLinden]

I find it amusing that the American Right is associated with red, when everywhere else in the world it’s the colour of the Left.

Is the Democratic Party left?

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

Hitchens was a misanthrope who basically lived to offend and annoy others, and in this way he was perhaps the first full time professional Troll.

But in his defence, he was perhaps one of the few Atheists who was “pro-life” and had problems with abortion (although I am not sure whether he supported overturning Roe v Wade) and he did have a strange friendship with William F. Buckley, a Catholic commenter who was almost the polar opposite of Hitchens in most things, except for their shared beliefs in free speech, marijuana legalization, hostility to abortion, and dislike of political correctness.

 

[Inquisitor85]

Is the Democratic Party left?

Not even close, but they represent whatever counts as “the left” over there. Also judging by certain nameless posters on here they represent full blown Marxist-Leninist communism.