Why did St. Pius V banish the Jews from the Papal States?

[Cristiano]

To have a good idea of the relationship between the Vatican and Jews throughout history I highly recommend the book The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: Pope Pius XII And His Secret War Against Nazi Germany by Rabbi David G. Dalin. Rabbi Dalin and other Jewish scholars are very clear that throughout the history of Europea the Jews had no better friend than the Popes and the Vatican.

Ran

I think that the book refers to only a very limited time of the history of the Church. I would hesitate to say that the Jews had not better friends than the Popes and the Vatican during the whole 2000 years of Christianity.

 

[MrSylvester]

Perhaps you should also try David Kertzer’s ‘Unholy War’.

I don’t trust David Kertzer. His books are obviously biased, as if the Catholic Church begged for the Holocaust. A serious study of history and Catholicism and statements by the Jews themselves show that the Church acted against Hitler and was successful at that. I provided evidence in my posts that the Church didn’t persecute Jews so much as discriminate against them and even then, it depended on the Pope. Some Popes treated Jews as much as they treated other religions in those times like Innocent III, Pius IX at first and others that you can see on wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism#The_Middle_Ages

If you want a truly unbiased book about Christianity and Judaism, one which neither catholic apologists will enjoy nor jewish ones, read Fran J. Coppas The papacy, the Jews, and the Holocaust, and theres no excuse to not read it, its on google books!

 

[Kaninchen]

I don’t trust David Kertzer. His books are obviously biased, as if the Catholic Church begged for the Holocaust. A serious study of history and Catholicism and statements by the Jews themselves show that the Church acted against Hitler and was successful at that. I provided evidence in my posts that the Church didn’t persecute Jews so much as discriminate against them and even then, it depended on the Pope. Some Popes treated Jews as much as they treated other religions in those times like Innocent III, Pius IX at first and others that you can see on wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism#The_Middle_Ages

If you want a truly unbiased book about Christianity and Judaism, one which neither catholic apologists will enjoy nor jewish ones, read Fran J. Coppas The papacy, the Jews, and the Holocaust, and theres no excuse to not read it, its on google books!

Hm, I think I’d choose my truly unbiased books over your truly unbiased books.

 

[MrSylvester]

The Catholic Encyclopedia literally provides nothing new that I already said. And before I continue chosen people, providing quotes from Catholics showing what they think of Jews is not going to work in leading us away form our faith. It didn’t lead David Goldstein away, it certainly won’t lead me away at least. I can provide tons of quotes showing what utter douchebags Jews are, from the one cow in Palestine to the insane quotes the Talmud provides and for the record, I have read the Talmud unmasked, did my research and found that yes, the Talmud unmasked should never be used Christians in apologetics against Jews as it makes up entire quotes and tractates and the Preist who wrote it hardly knew Hebrew. The following post may contain content that will offend the religious sensibilities of devout Jews and I understand that. However, I’m not going to say that Judaism makes you a bad person, I’m just going to say why I think Judaism is not the true faith. Its not intended to be anti-semitic, this is anti-semitic: dafk.net/what/ Warning: yes, I am not kidding, the website is very offensive.

That said, let me explain:

''If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the devil’s refuge, Satan’s fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are saying less than it deserves." And: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ . . .The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christian may never cease vengeance, and the Jews must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is incumbent upon all Christians to hate the Jews. – Saint Jerome and St. John Chrysotom respectively.

Saint John Chrysostom’s words show that he was VERY passionate and unfair towards the Jews (as a religion) and to be honest to my fellow Catholics, he’s probably my least favorite of all the Saints. He may have had a huge influence on Catholicism, he may have been in heaven but his quotes are too overtly exagerated even by Catholic standards, and though he certainly isn’t in hell for sure, I feel that he suffered alot in purgatory. Saint Jerome’s words on the other hand can be interpreted in the same way although I feel Jerome acted more agressively to defend something and not because he was so anti-judaist that he could only speak in deragatory sentences. You should see his work agaisnt Helvidius in defending the Virginity of Mary most holy; his comments are priceless!

As to Saint Augustine putting Judaism on the same level as Judas Iscariot, I don’t mean to sound harsh but his argument is reasonable. Jews deny that Jesus is the Messiah, they deny that the Pharisees killed Jesus and by their own religion, they refuse to recognize Him. The sin of religious Jews (but not ethnic ones, nor the children of ethnic ones) is not in that they killed Jesus, its in the fact they rejected Him even after all the proof He gave them. The Pharisees rejected Him (and everyone knows what influence they had on Judaism) and they betrayed God. No Jew, just as no Muslim, Freemason, Protestant, Hindu or atheist can go to heaven because they all reject Christ and His teachings and since they are outside the Church they can’t gain true knowledge.

Of course, from the Church’s point of view, this doesn’t count to all Jews and shouldn’t be taken that literally all the Jews that exist are going straight to hell. There are Jews who practice their religion devoutly yet have doubts and even though they continue practicing it throughout, they investigate other religions to see why they are the true faith.

“The Jews’ guilt of the crucifixion of Jesus consigned them to perpetual servitude, and like Cain, they are to be wanderers and fugitives . . . the Jews will not dare to raise their necks, bowed under the yoke of perpetual slavery, against the reverence of the Christian faith.” - Pope Innocent III.

 

[MrSylvester]

Hm, I think I’d choose my truly unbiased books over your truly unbiased books.

Whats that supposed to mean? I’ll tell you this miss, if you want to take David Kertzer’s books seriously, the read it with the internet open and see if his allegations are true and at the same time, read other books defending the Catholics and how they protected Jews and draw your own conclusions from there. I also suggest reading reviews form amazon. But remember, Hitler persecuted the Jews (and Catholics, and Poles, and homosexuals, etc…) not out of religion but out of racial hatred and when he said that he persecuted Jews because of the Catholic Church, His actions agaisnt it and the Church’s refusal to recognize his actions as good proof he was not sincere or devout but that his words were just a means to silence us. Unlike the Church, Hitler killed and unlike the Church, Hitlers actions weren’t because of religion but simply because he was a douche.

This doesn’t of course justify the excessive measures the Church took in supressing Judaism and though it didn’t kill Jews, it certainly discriminated against them out of a misguided attempt at preserving the faith. Honestly, I feel that this is the only time the Church before Vatican II seriously did something utterly bad; not the crusades (they were a war against Islam), not the Inquisition (everyone has the right to enforce valid and just rules), not colonialism (without it, people wouldn’t be so civilized in such countries), just the actions towards the Jews as a religion (check this thread for more of an explanation: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=624145

Some things should be taken into the context of the times: Jews weren’t allowed to hold political positions because the Papal States were a theocracy and only Catholics could hold them and the Inquisition targeted false converts and not Jews who were publicly Jews, while the ghettos themselves were sometimes encouraged by Rabbis and welcomed by Jews themselves (some of them anyway) as they let Jews be a society within a society. Some of them were poor such as that of Rome, others were rich like that of Venice.

 

[Kaninchen]

Whats that supposed to mean? I’ll tell you this miss,

I think you should be more careful in how you talk to people.

 

[MrSylvester]

I think you should be more careful in how you talk to people.

I don’t think I said anything wrong or mean, I’m just saying that you should be careful when looking at these things and should approach them with an unbiased mind and question everything unless you know that this or that thing are utterly true. I really don’t want to sound mean or to stereotype you’d speak like that too if someone called your religion as practicing ritual murder or something.

 

[Kaninchen]

I don’t think I said anything wrong or mean, I’m just saying that you should be careful when looking at these things and should approach them with an unbiased mind and question everything unless you know that this or that thing are utterly true. I really don’t want to sound mean or to stereotype you’d speak like that too if someone called your religion as practicing ritual murder or something.

You don’t seem to imagine it possible that others, with different perspectives, of course, might have given long thought to these subjects.

Patronising people isn’t a good idea if you want them to take you seriously, that’s for sure.

 

[MrSylvester]

You don’t seem to imagine it possible that others, with different perspectives, of course, might have given long thought to these subjects.

Patronising people isn’t a good idea if you want them to take you seriously, that’s for sure.

Oh for crying out loud, patronizing? Really? What do you expect me to do then blatantly insult you and say that the Jews shouldn’t be ticked off at the discrimination they suffered by the Catholic Church?

While it is true people have diffirent perspectives on religion and opinions, nobody can hjave a perspective in regards history because unlike rleigion and philosophy which depend on faith and reason, history doesn’t. SO to say that the whole Catholic Church was as guilty of the holocaust as Hitler while ignoring the good it did to save the Jews isn’t defending Judaism, its being fanatical and anti-catholic.

 

[Kaninchen]

Oh for crying out loud, patronizing? Really? What do you expect me to do then blatantly insult you and say that the Jews shouldn’t be ticked off at the discrimination they suffered by the Catholic Church?

While it is true people have diffirent perspectives on religion and opinions, nobody can hjave a perspective in regards history because unlike rleigion and philosophy which depend on faith and reason, history doesn’t. SO to say that the whole Catholic Church was as guilty of the holocaust as Hitler while ignoring the good it did to save the Jews isn’t defending Judaism, its being fanatical and anti-catholic.

I merely suggested somebody should read a book and suggested that ‘truly unbiased’ might be a matter of perspective, matey.

 

[Bezant]

While it is true people have diffirent perspectives on religion and opinions, nobody can hjave a perspective in regards history because unlike rleigion and philosophy which depend on faith and reason, history doesn’t.

Of course people can view history very differently. History is full of unanswered questions, debatable events, and questionable sources. Even well-documented events took place, might be given less attention or emphasis than other well-documented events that took place.

 

[MrSylvester]

The Catholic Encyclopedia literally provides nothing new that I already said. And before I continue chosen people, providing quotes from Catholics showing what they think of Jews is not going to work in leading us away form our faith. It didn’t lead David Goldstein away, it certainly won’t lead me away at least. I can provide tons of quotes showing what utter douchebags Jews can, from the one cow in Palestine to the insane quotes the Talmud provides and for the record, I have read the Talmud unmasked, did my research and found that yes, *the Talmud unmasked *should never be used by Christians in apologetics against Jews as it makes up entire quotes and tractates not found at all in the Talmud and the Preist who wrote it hardly knew Hebrew.

The following post may contain content that will offend the religious sensibilities of devout Jews and I understand that. However, I’m not going to say that Judaism makes you a bad person, I’m just going to say why I think Judaism is not the true faith and what the Church really meant when it said that they killed Jesus. Its not intended to be anti-semitic, this is anti-semitic: dafk.net/what/ Warning: yes, I am not kidding, the website is very offensive.

That said, let me explain:

''If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the devil’s refuge, Satan’s fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are saying less than it deserves." And: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ . . .The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christian may never cease vengeance, and the Jews must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is incumbent upon all Christians to hate the Jews. – Saint Jerome and St. John Chrysostom respectively.

Saint John Chrysostom’s words show that he was VERY passionate and unfair towards the Jews (as a religion) and to be honest to my fellow Catholics, he’s probably my least favorite of all the Saints. He may have had a huge influence on Catholicism, he may have been in heaven but his quotes are too overtly exaggerated even by Catholic standards, and though he certainly isn’t in hell for sure, I feel that he suffered alot in purgatory. Saint Jerome’s words on the other hand can be interpreted in the same way although I feel Jerome acted more aggressively to defend something and not because he was so anti-judaist that he could only speak in derogatory sentences. You should see his work against Helvidius in defending the Virginity of Mary most holy; his comments are priceless!

As to Saint Augustine putting Judaism on the same level as Judas Iscariot, I don’t mean to sound harsh but his argument is reasonable. Jews deny that Jesus is the Messiah, they deny that the Pharisees killed Jesus and by their own religion, they refuse to recognize Him. The sin of religious Jews (but not ethnic ones, nor the children of ethnic ones) is not in that they killed Jesus, its in the fact they rejected Him even after all the proof He gave them. The Pharisees rejected Him (and everyone knows what influence they had on Judaism) and they betrayed God. No Jew, just as no Muslim, Freemason, Protestant, Hindu or atheist can go to heaven because they all reject Christ and His teachings and since they are outside the Church they can’t gain true knowledge.

Of course, from the Church’s point of view, this doesn’t count to all Jews and shouldn’t be taken that literally all the Jews that exist are going straight to hell. There are Jews who practice their religion devoutly yet have doubts and even though they continue practicing it throughout, they investigate other religions to see why they are the true faith.

“The Jews’ guilt of the crucifixion of Jesus consigned them to perpetual servitude, and like Cain, they are to be wanderers and fugitives . . . the Jews will not dare to raise their necks, bowed under the yoke of perpetual slavery, against the reverence of the Christian faith.” - Pope Innocent III.

 

[MrSylvester]

Lets just say for the sake of argument that all the devout Jews acknowledge that the Pharisees, together with the Romans, killed Jesus; they killed Him by framing Him and accusing Him of rebellion against the Empire when in fact He was totally innocent. From the Jews point of view, the killed an ordinary man who claimed He was God and handed Him over because of religious fanaticism; to us, the Pharisees not only knew that Jesus was the Messiah because of His countless miracles, teachings and declaration of divinity but despite all this evidence, they still killed Him to keep their lust for power and social standing and to preserve their perverse teachings.

Now lets go to the ordinary Jews and not the leaders… for the sake of argument, Jews today admit that SOME of their ancestors, though they didn’t directly nail Jesus to the cross, they DID give their approval to His murder, but not all of them. The Blessed Mother, The Apostles, the early followers of Jesus were all Jewish and they certainly didn’t approve of His murder and there definitely were some/a lot of Jews/quite a few/just one Jew/s who even though they didn’t believe in Jesus decried the murder of an innocent man and in this case, despite the Jews saying ‘His blood be upon us and our children!’, their children can’t be judged guilty for killing Jesus. That, plus no body in Israel had e-mail or Twitter at that time so the majority of Israel couldn’t know what was happening and when they found out, they were obviously disgusted.

The problem arises in this: even though the Pharisees or some of them killed Jesus, if they found out about their wrong doing and felt guilt and then accepted Jesus and Christianity, they wouldn’t be held as guilty for their crime but this didn’t happen. They took pride in that they got rid of Jesus and despite hearing about His resurrection, still remained obstinate in their heresies. Consequently, they seduced the people into believing their lies and their rejection of Christ until Judaism was turned into not the religion of Moses and Abraham but the religion of Caiphas, Annas and the Talmud. To us, the Jews collectively reject Jesus not because they validly think a human can’t be God, its because they don’t want to acknowledge Jesus is God, they don’t want to acknowledge that the Messiah’s kingdom is spiritual and not temporal. As Peter put it: “I know that you did it through ignorance, as did also your rulers”–namely, because they were seduced by the rulers.

To Catholics, face it, some Saints erred when they said that the Jews can’t get to heaven because they are guilty of killing Christ. No, in sumarry, Jews to us are only guilty because they reject Christ and stubbornly cling to and look up to the religion that blatantly hates Jesus and makes a big deal of Him not being the Messiah, especially since this religion was influenced so much by His original killers.

Today, Judaism is full of different sects with many different creeds, many contradictions and many questionable practices (and for the record, these questionable practices have nothing to do with ritual murder as the Church condemned the idea that Jews practice it as part of their religion), much like Protestantism and Islam.

And thats what the Church means when it said that the Jews are guilty. If a Pope, like Innocent III said that the Jews carry the guilt of the murder of Christ, he meant not that the Jews literally killed Him but that they are part of a religion that bears the guilt of Christ’s murder. And when they used the word slavery in regards the Jews, they didn’t mean to capture the Jews and use them as slaves. No Pope ever made such a decree and they only meant that since Judaism fell from grace, its adherents can only live under other governments and can’t regain their older ‘Jewish’ glory because of their rejection of Jesus. There are orthodox Jews today that even decry the creation of Israel because unlike their messiah, Zionism did the dirty work by its own hands without help from God. I won’t dispute this as this is is way out of my league.

I end with these two quotes from Jews:

“Jesus of Nazareth… impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him.”
Maimondes, Epistle to Yemen: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism%27s_view_of_Jesus#Maimonides.27_Epistle_to_Yemen May his bones be ground to dust indeed Maimondes. Not.

 

[chosen_people]

Lets just say for the sake of argument that all the devout Jews acknowledge that the Pharisees, together with the Romans, killed Jesus; they killed Him by framing Him and accusing Him of rebellion against the Empire when in fact He was totally innocent. From the Jews point of view, the killed an ordinary man who claimed He was God and handed Him over because of religious fanaticism; to us, the Pharisees not only knew that Jesus was the Messiah because of His countless miracles, teachings and declaration of divinity but despite all this evidence, they still killed Him to keep their lust for power and social standing and to preserve their perverse teachings.:

Wel first, as I have stated on another thread it took some three hundred years and massive mutual massacres and infighting between Christian groups for the Jesus figure to be designated a god:
"The ultimate defining act of Christianity is the human blood sacrifice of the Jesus god figure for the salvation of humanity. Putting aside how such a concept is a total rejection of the concept and definition of the Jewish God, we may ask ourselves how it comes about that the Jesus figure came to be recognized as a god in Christianity. As opposed to the Jewish God, it appears that Jesus as a god was anything but obvious. Instead of an entire nation, we have twelve disciples. However, even the name of these 12 disciples are not agreed upon in the Christian scriptures. Even the genealogy of the Jesus figure is not agreed upon. If we search the Christian scriptures, we discover that on the one hand Jesus was born no later then 4 b.c.e. (the death of Herod) and on the other hand he was born 10 years later in 6 c.e (the Roman census).

Of the 41 historians of the first and second centuries of the common era who wrote about Judea and Samaria and whose works survive, none apparently knew or realized that a god had come to earth in human form. None wrote about the apostles or disciples or about all the occurrences and miracles of the Jesus figure. Without any reliable sources for the Jesus figure outside of the Christian scriptures themselves, Christians have turned to a later forgery of certain passages of Josephus and even to trying to interpret Talmudic passages as somehow supporting the historic Jesus figure.

The original Christians, the Ebionites, made up of members of Jesus’ family and disciples, also did not know or acknowledge that Jesus was a god. Neither did the Arian Christians. In fact, it is only when the Roman (Hellenistic) Christians have managed to massacre sufficient numbers of Arian Christians that in 325 c.e. the Jesus figure is finally recognized as a god in Christianity. It is only in 389 c.e. that the “holy ghost” is added and recognized to form the concept of the Christian Trinity.

Secondly, God tells the Jewish people that they will be tested from time to time to abandon their eternal covenant and Torah and to follow those who claim they are a god come to down to earth in human form etc. The Jesus figure was hardly the first nor was he the last (see for instance the story of Shabtai Zvi)

" Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13

Chapter 13

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it. א. אֵת כָּל הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם אֹתוֹ תִשְׁמְרוּ לַעֲשׂוֹת לֹא תֹסֵף עָלָיו וְלֹא תִגְרַע מִמֶּנּוּ:
2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, ב. כִּי יָקוּם בְּקִרְבְּךָ נָבִיא אוֹ חֹלֵם חֲלוֹם וְנָתַן אֵלֶיךָ אוֹת אוֹ מוֹפֵת:
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, “Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,” ג. וּבָא הָאוֹת וְהַמּוֹפֵת אֲשֶׁר דִּבֶּר אֵלֶיךָ לֵאמֹר נֵלְכָה אַחֲרֵי אֱ־לֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹא יְדַעְתָּם וְנָעָבְדֵם:
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul. ד. לֹא תִשְׁמַע אֶל דִּבְרֵי הַנָּבִיא הַהוּא אוֹ אֶל חוֹלֵם הַחֲלוֹם הַהוּא כִּי מְנַסֶּה יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם אֶתְכֶם לָדַעַת הֲיִשְׁכֶם אֹהֲבִים אֶת יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם בְּכָל לְבַבְכֶם וּבְכָל נַפְשְׁכֶם:
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him. ה. אַחֲרֵי יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם תֵּלֵכוּ וְאֹתוֹ תִירָאוּ וְאֶת מִצְוֹתָיו תִּשְׁמֹרוּ וּבְקֹלוֹ תִשְׁמָעוּ וְאֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹדוּ וּבוֹ תִדְבָּקוּן:

Finally, you seem to be missing the point of your own posts. If the persecutions of the Jews by the Church and Catholics were unecessary and cruel, then they should be universally and unequivocally condemned by all and without reservation. However, if indeed it was morally justifiable to take these actions against the Jews, we must ask ourselves what has changed? Certainly my culpability for the death of Jesus is just as great as say my great grandfather’s. Certainly I am no less a malignant Jewish force then my great grandfather. If so, shouldn’t I and all Jews still be living in a ghetto, shouldn’t we be made to wear identifying clothing, shouldn’t we still be banned from professions, from studies, from all social and work interactions with non Jews, from having the same basic civil and legal rights as non-Jews?

On the other hand Jews only make up two tenths of one per cent of the world’s population, they’re not bright enough to even understand and grasp that your religious beliefs are correct and let’s face it, given their actions and beliefs, it should be clear that they are cursed by God and intended to suffer. So really what could possibly happen if we were to let this small miniscule forlorn group become doctors and scientists and artists and intellectuals? It’s not like they’re going to make much of an impact.

 

[KathleenGee]

If people think that the Catholic Church was begging for the Holocaust to come…then they are indeed conjecturing.

My father was in the seminary on the West Coast many years ago, and he got ‘The Black Book of Poland’, that was one of the first documented leaks of Nazi atrocities against Jews – and – Catholic/Orthodox Slavic people.

I think we do not hold on to sins because Christ told us to forgive…we remember the dead, the atrocities, but they are not part of our psyche in Christ.

I think it is necessary for for Catholics to look at the horrendous side of anti-Semitism.

And it is necessary for Jews to acknowledge the Church’s request for forgiveness for its sins as a people.

Just because Catholics and Christians have sinned against Jewish people in the past, does not mean in the past that such behavior and sentiments were shared by all Catholics or Christians in general.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would like to add on not just the Jews and Slavic Christians who died under the Nazis…but the 22 million people who died on account of national socialism and American elements that nuked Japan.

When people malign, mistreat, and destroy the lives of other people, this is not Christ at work.

And parallel to this, I had considered a career in psychology, but the course work did not edify and encompass my perspective on the human being. But there has been great work in the last 40 years that has really made inroads in helping people with psychological and psychiatric conditions.

The same goes for people in general and in context of social sciences. The disciplines used in a Catholic school 40 years ago are not used today. I went to Catholic grade school, some nuns were not competent in handling and disciplining children and I thought I would never put my kids in parochial school. But when the day came, the one by me was so good and my children remember it to this day.

And then it goes back again…how did the Jews, considering those who rejected Christ, treat their fellow non-Jews? What is the history of Jews in past temporal societies…

And is it true that there are maledictions against Christ in Jewish reading…the Talmud? I do not know if it is a fact or not but read maledictions made against Christ on the internet claimed to be done by Jewish religious personages…I do not know…

I do not hold on to such ideas.

As a Roman Catholic, and speaking from my own Irish Welsh tradition, I was never raised in anti-semitism. I hold veneration for the Jewish people because they gave me Christ and His church. Growing up, the nuns told us that Scripture said some day the Jews would return to Israel. I always felt sorry for them.

 

[MrSylvester]

chosen people, you’re being manipulative in your writing and is trying to make me seem as if I think Jews are all bad people. I don’t, I think all races are equally terrible.

Secondly, you missed the point of my post entirely again: Jews are not guilty of killing Jesus, they’re guilty of rejecting Jesus so it is their own sin and not the sins of their fathers that makes them guilty and for accepting a religion that goes out of its way and denies the Messiah even after all the proof He gave to to them.

Your position that the Jews had reason to deny Jesus is God because the early Christians didn’t believe Jesus is God is untenable. The four Gospels were written a few years after Jesus died and in them, He is always saying that He is the Son of God and that the Son of God stands at the right hand of His Father in heaven. Incidentally, Arianism was condemned by the Pope and the Council of Nicea formulated the Nicene Creed after it condemned Arius. If Christians didn’t beleive Jesus was God, why did the Catholic Church go against Arius?

Here is proof that the early Christians did beleive Jesus was God and going agaisnt everything that you said:

“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”

-Ignatius of Antioch, “Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

“This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.”

-Justin Martyr, “First Apology”, Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God. John 5:18. The gospel of John was written in

“If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, ‘And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?’ [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, ‘And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,’ except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, ‘And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;’ but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as he is. We must therefore believe, according to the rule prescribed, on the Lord, the one true God, and consequently on him whom he has sent, Jesus Christ, who by no means, as we have said, would have linked himself to the Father had he not wished to be understood to be God also. For he would have separated himself from him had he not wished to be understood to be God” Novatian, Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235].

Clement of Alexandria

“The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things” Pope Clement I, Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190].

Cyril of Alexandria wrote of Jesus, “For he remained what he was; that is, by nature God. But…he took it on himself to be man as well” and “There is nothing to prevent us from thinking of Christ as being the one and only Son at once both God and man, perfect in deity and perfect in humanity…he is conceived of as God and is God,…” Second Letter to Succensus," 2, 4, in Wiles and Santer, Documents in Early Christian Thought, 67, 69-70.

Really, there are so many it’d take too long to lsit them. Check here and here: ankerberg.com/Articles/historical-Jesus/DaVinci/HJ-davinci-was-jesus-divinity-invented-in-the-fourth-centuary.htm catholic.com/tracts/the-divinity-of-christ

So contrary to what you assert chosen people, Catholics did beleive Jesus was God and not in a vague manner either.

Another thing, really? Massacres and in fighting amongst Christians? The very early Christians were persecuted by the Jews themselves and they didn’t wage a war or anything, they jsut wanted to spread their religion. When Constantine declared the Catholic religion as the religion of the whole Roman Empire, he permitted religious freedom everywhere and though he did make it a law that if a Christian embraced the Jewish faith he would incur the death penalty, he didn’t persecute the Jews and kill them and in fact left them to their religion in peace:

"Those who dedicate themselves in the synagogues of the Jews to the duty of patriarchs or presbyters with complete devotion and, living as members of the above-named sect, preside over its law, shall continue to be free from all personal or civil duties, just as those who are now perhaps decurions; under no circumstances shall they be destined for other duties, since men of this type must for no reason whatsoever be compelled to leave the positions they now occupy. Moreover, those who are not curials shall be exempt from the decurionate in perpetuity.’’ Constantine to Ablavius, pp., CTh., 16, 8, 2; 29/11/330.

 

[MrSylvester]

I am sincerely not aware of such massacres between Christians killing each other. Would you mind provinding some of them here?

41 historians didn’t speak of Christ being God and the Apostles? For one thing, the testimony by Josephus isn’t exactly forged; scholars hold that Josephus did indeed mention Christ (twice) but that the text was corrupted by Christians: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Josephus The same article shows other Jewish sources including Lucian and Celsus. It also shows that the Romans knew Jesus existed by THEIR historical sources. Even if Jewish historians failed to mention the Christians and Jesus Himself, it still doesn’t explain how they flourished so much. At one point you say Christians existed and came from Israel, and at another point you say they weren’t mentioned and that the Jews didn’t realize that a god came to earth. Alot fo the Jews did realize the truth, just the majority of them didn’t want to see it.

Now, regarding the discrimination agaisnt Jews, I said that putting them into ghettos and only letting them have minimal jobs was wrong. However, I also showed how the Popes often removed such dumb restrictions and when they were reinstituted by Popes such as Leo XII, they were removed or partly removed by succesive Popes like Pius VIII and Gregory XVI. Paul IV acted outside his role as Pope and teacher of all Christians and his decrees on Jews were only governmental ones. So were those of Pius V, although his accusation of Jews practicing witchcraft, from our perspective, had some truth to it with the Jewish practice of Kaballah. The councils of Lateran did force Jews to wear

So no, we don’t want to put Jews in ghettos as a society within a society because its unnecessary and mean. However, what is necessary, what we will never do is recognize the Jewish religion and all its adherants as candidates for heaven and sons of God because they are not. In the immortal words of Pius X to Theodore Herzl:

*We cannot prevent Jews from going to Jerusalem, but we can never sanction it. Jews have not recognized Our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people. They had ample time to acknowledge Christ’s divinity without pressure, but they didn’t. Should the Jews manage to set foot on the once promised old-new land, the missionaries of the Church would stand prepared to baptize them. Jerusalem cannot be placed in Jewish hands. *

Likewise, you can replace the word ‘Jew’ with the word ‘Muslim’ and it’d make as much sense. Pius X’s quote can be found here: bunyanministries.org/books/israel_and_millennialism/22_app_l_herzl_meets_pope_pius.pdf If the Church condemned the Jews of their blindness, its not anti-semitic, its speaking agaisnt what to us is a false religion and condemning false religions is our duty. Of course, you Jews condemn our religion because you think it is false and it isn’t wrong, its wrong only if our religion is true which to us it is and vice versa with your religion.

 

[MrSylvester]

On the other hand Jews only make up two tenths of one per cent of the world’s population, they’re not bright enough to even understand and grasp that your religious beliefs are correct and let’s face it, given their actions and beliefs, it should be clear that they are cursed by God and intended to suffer. So really what could possibly happen if we were to let this small miniscule forlorn group become doctors and scientists and artists and intellectuals? It’s not like they’re going to make much of an impact.

And to this chosen people, I have to do this:



Re-read my posts: did I imply that because of their rejection of Christ, Jews should be forced to live in ghettos? I won’t say my personal opinion, just that the Popes believed that the Jews, because of their unreasonable rejection of Jesus, are forced to live under non-jewish governments but they did notsay that they should be mistreated; in fact, the Popes according to the links that I provided condemned violence against the Jews. They just believed that God removed all the priveleges Jews enjoyed under Him and because they forfeited their covenant, they can’t live in Palestine/Israel anymore as a state or a religious theocracy.

And if you think mister, now that Israel is a Jewish state than it is proof of God’s love for the Jewish religion, tell me, who founded Israel? Your messiah or a bunch of people who took ‘god’s work’ into their own hands by means of war? How many Jews today do you think actually care that it is God who ‘lead them’ to this state and aren’t Jewish in name only?

 

[KathleenGee]

ChosenPeople, let it go. You have to will to get the past out.

My former Dominican pastor thinks people are extreme when they are living out abuses that happened hundreds of years ago.