Why did the angels rebel if they were absolutely sure they cant win?

[JerryZ]

Some theologians have speculated that God’s way of letting the angels choose for or against submission to God was first telling them that creation was going to include creatures who have rational souls like the angels but also material bodies, and then telling them that the second person of the Blessed Trinity would, at the proper time, incarnate as one of these spiritual/material hybrid creatures in order to elevate and divinize material existence. Some of the angels, Satan chief among them, then rebelled at the thought of God uniting the spiritual to the material because they viewed it not as a divinizing of the material but as a dilution of the spiritual. Thus the source of their rebellion was not a simple “I will not serve because I want to be in charge” statement of pure pride, but a far more complex action rooted in a lack of trust in God. It basically boils down to, “God wishes to lower himself to the level of mere matter. I cannot worship matter. As God no longer deserves our worship, it falls to us to remain true to the pureness of the spirit and fight against this disgusting mix of the pure and impure that calls itself God. THAT is what I will not serve, this God who has left perfection behind and turned himself into what is base and disgusting. I may be turning my back on true charity, but that’s only because true charity turned its back on me first”.

It would also mean that the incarnation and ascension were part of God’s plan regardless of our actions, but the crucifixion and resurrection then became necessary as a consequence of the fall.

I don’t know that I agree, but I do find it plausible. We fell from grace basically because we didn’t place our trust in God (God warned us to not do this, but do I trust what he says?), and Satan fell from grace because HE didn’t trust in God either (God says that this is good, but do I trust what he says?). It would also suggest that beliefs such as gnostic dualism, about the spirit being inherently pure and good but the flesh being inherently evil, are rooted in Satan’s influence. Of course he would want to influence us to view the material as base and disgusting and impure, but the spirit as pure, because Satan’s actions seem to indicate that that’s exactly what he believes.

Remember that God is the Alpha and the Omega He created the universe and all that is in it but He is outside of time. He knows everything that has and will happen to the end of time. When this universe blips out of existence. He can show to the Angels specific instances of the creative act if He so wills it. Certainly it is within His reach.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

Some theologians have speculated that God’s way of letting the angels choose for or against submission to God was first telling them that creation was going to include creatures who have rational souls like the angels but also material bodies, and then telling them that the second person of the Blessed Trinity would, at the proper time, incarnate as one of these spiritual/material hybrid creatures in order to elevate and divinize material existence. Some of the angels, Satan chief among them, then rebelled at the thought of God uniting the spiritual to the material because they viewed it not as a divinizing of the material but as a dilution of the spiritual. Thus the source of their rebellion was not a simple “I will not serve because I want to be in charge” statement of pure pride, but a far more complex action rooted in a lack of trust in God. It basically boils down to, “God wishes to lower himself to the level of mere matter. I cannot worship matter. As God no longer deserves our worship, it falls to us to remain true to the pureness of the spirit and fight against this disgusting mix of the pure and impure that calls itself God. THAT is what I will not serve, this God who has left perfection behind and turned himself into what is base and disgusting. I may be turning my back on true charity, but that’s only because true charity turned its back on me first”.

It would also mean that the incarnation and ascension were part of God’s plan regardless of our actions, but the crucifixion and resurrection then became necessary as a consequence of the fall.

I don’t know that I agree, but I do find it plausible. We fell from grace basically because we didn’t place our trust in God (God warned us to not do this, but do I trust what he says?), and Satan fell from grace because HE didn’t trust in God either (God says that this is good, but do I trust what he says?). It would also suggest that beliefs such as gnostic dualism, about the spirit being inherently pure and good but the flesh being inherently evil, are rooted in Satan’s influence. Of course he would want to influence us to view the material as base and disgusting and impure, but the spirit as pure, because Satan’s actions seem to indicate that that’s exactly what he believes.

That is an interesting theory I had never heard of and may explain why the fallen angels then tried to out do God by mating with human women creating giants and trying to set themselves up as gods over humanity.

 

[yunat]

The angels aren’t omniscient and therefore lack the ability to be sure whether they will win or not.

You’d think Angels, who are beings of pure spirit, would have known that their boss and creator, is the only all powerful and all knowing God anywhere?

If all of this stuff is real, the story certainly falls short. That fallible and finite beings would start a war with an infallible, infinite, all knowing and all powerful God.

 

[yunat]

Remember that God is the Alpha and the Omega He created the universe and all that is in it but He is outside of time. He knows everything that has and will happen to the end of time. When this universe blips out of existence. He can show to the Angels specific instances of the creative act if He so wills it. Certainly it is within His reach.

May I ask how you’ve come to know this? Are you able to provide any concrete evidence to prove your position true, or is it a matter of faith?

 

[Phaedra777]

That is an interesting theory I had never heard of and may explain why the fallen angels then tried to out do God by mating with human women creating giants and trying to set themselves up as gods over humanity.

Angels–fallen or otherwise–are pure spirits and cannot mate with humans.

 

[Alindawyl]

You’d think Angels, who are beings of pure spirit, would have known that their boss and creator, is the only all powerful and all knowing God anywhere?

If all of this stuff is real, the story certainly falls short. That fallible and finite beings would start a war with an infallible, infinite, all knowing and all powerful God.

Knowing something is wrong and choosing not to do it are two different things. Whether it’s something as major as theft or murder, or something as relatively minor as smoking or obesity, we’re confronted on a daily basis with people doing things that they know as they do them are, for lack of a better word, just plain stupid.

For example, I’m on this website typing this response instead of writing a paper that’s due in 17 hours

So… yeah. As far as I’m concerned, the story doesn’t fall short at all.

 

[fred_conty]

They believed that they would somehow never go to hell. And here is why.
…-------------------------…
They couldn’t believe that would go to hell since it was too horrible and probably one big missunderstanding with no truth to it.

That God was too good for anyone to go to hell.

They had their sin suckies and couldn’t give up one.

They didn’t think that it would happen for just one mistake.

God dosen’t understand me, but he will come around.

I can twist things to my way of thinking rather than God’s way.

I want it now, and he has no right to keep it from me, and I don’t care.

God really sees me as an exception, not like others, so I’m ok.

I’m so good in everything else, so I’m not worried.

This is just a one night stand.

That is not my understanding about God at all, that he would hurt me.

I am so precious…

Look at that one over there, and then look at me,…not bad at all.

I wonder if I really want heaven, is it worth it?

No body knows the troubles I’ve seen, surely I’ve been thru enough.

Just this once and no more.

Like… everyone’s doing it.

I know, but this is just too hard.

I like enjoying myself and God wouldn’t be that way.

What’s the use of it all if I can’t have something for myself.

Add some of your own thoughts.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

LOL Good post! Yeah sounds like a lot of the reasoning/justifications we humans tell ourselves when we do things we know we shouldn’t. They thought if enough of them rebel God can’t get all of them. They thought they had strength in numbers even though it was just 1/3 of them but I bet that’s how they recruited the 1/3. “It’s not so bad if enough of us band together in this”.

A good thing to read is the Book of Enoch which tells about the angels rebellion and it even mentions in it that the angels thought God would tolerate it and it wouldn’t be so bad if enough of them banded together. I know it’s not a cannon book but it’s interesting to read just for reference.

 

[clem456]

I have a couple of handy definitions of hell that work for me:

Hell is having a repeated fantasy of the most beautiful women you can imagine,

• at 3am when you would rather be sleeping.

or this works also:

Hell is a non-stop party where the beer and women never run out, and all the exits are locked.

Hell is having things your way,
with the full knowlege that someone else could have provided you everything you really need,
forever and ever and ever.

 

[WmJackP]

Why did the angels rebel if they were absolutely sure they cant win?
its suicide.

A better question is why do they (the satanic angels) continue to beat their heads against a brick wall? They keep rebelling and continue a losing battle. If they are hyper intelligent (as claimed) they know there is"no exit". Then what is this with trying to tempt mankind and lead us mortals astray? It’s almost like they are trying to get God even more angry and bring down even more misery.

A smart angel would stroke up to God, repent and hope for a better tomorrow. Why does this not play out? I think they are dumber than we are (and at times, that’s got to be high up on the stupid scale)

 

[Skye_Ariel]

A better question is why do they (the satanic angels) continue to beat their heads against a brick wall? They keep rebelling and continue a losing battle. If they are hyper intelligent (as claimed) they know there is"no exit". **Then what is this with trying to tempt mankind and lead us mortals astray? It’s almost like they are trying to get God even more angry and bring down even more misery. **

A smart angel would stroke up to God, repent and hope for a better tomorrow. Why does this not play out? I think they are dumber than we are (and at times, that’s got to be high up on the stupid scale)

Because they are mad at God and want to hurt Him by messing with us, His creation and trying to bring as many humans to hell with them as possible to spite God.

But yeah you would think they would try to win God’s forgiveness back but instead they choose to just make it worse for themselves and get rid of all hope of their sins ever being forgiven. They’ve done too much now by messing with humanity but right after their fall they should have played nice and tried to win back God’s forgiveness.

 

[stevekehl]

Why did the angels rebel if they were absolutely sure they cant win?
its suicide.

before you answer ‘pride’ please think about how pride is applicable against a certain sure death. in every case fear wins.

We rebel against God all the time. And they didn’t die, just like we won’t die.

 

[fhansen]

Why did the angels rebel if they were absolutely sure they cant win?
its suicide.


before you answer ‘pride’ please think about how pride is applicable against a certain sure death. in every case fear wins.

Evil is said to always defy and ignore reason in some manner or another. It’s selfishness, the obstinate demand to have my way even if I must deny reality/twist the truth in order to get it-and justify my pursuit of it. The Original Sin was the dumbing down in a sense of humankind.

 

[TimeEntrance]

They rebelled because they could not accept the fact that they were mere creatures. They refused to obey and worship their Creator.

Remember, Lucifer was the most powerful, beautiful, intelligent creature ever created by God. Yet he had a free will. Lucifer refused to take all that power, and beauty, and intelligence and worship and obey God.

As to what caused Lucifer to rebel, theologians still debate that. Most think it had something to do with the man’s creation and God’s incarnation.

If you think about it… that’s something of a curse. I’m happy I’m not the most powerful, beautiful, intelligent man on earth let alone the universe. I can only imagine how that would inflate my head and image of myself. Even with all the many flaws I have I’m still vulnerable to a certain amount of unhealthy pride.

You know… the irony of my flaws and weaknesses is what really helps to keep me in prayer to God for help and reliance on Him.

I was in a slight depressed mood but responding to your post just cheered me up.

 

[Shlomo]

Why did the angels rebel if they were absolutely sure they cant win?
its suicide.

I would appreciate if you clarified who claims they were “absolutely sure they cant win”?

For a rebellion to take place at least one of the following must be true:

1. A hope of victory
2. Nothing to lose
3. Absolute devotion to the cause of the rebellion even up to sacrificing oneself.
4. Being forced to rebel by another mighty force.

While living in this world we can only speculate. Afterwards, we have a chance to know better.

I would suggest they were simply created for that purpose and could not act otherwise.

 

[clem456]

I would appreciate if you clarified who claims they were “absolutely sure they cant win”?

For a rebellion to take place at least one of the following must be true:

1. A hope of victory
2. Nothing to lose
3. Absolute devotion to the cause of the rebellion even up to sacrificing oneself.
4. Being forced to rebel by another mighty force.

While living in this world we can only speculate. Afterwards, we have a chance to know better.

I would suggest they were simply created for that purpose and could not act otherwise.

I think you are leaving perhaps the most common scenario for rebellion out

Blindness to consequences, born of pride and/or passion.
Most of the truly evil people we can mention are not reasonable people, they have lost their ability to reason. They are ruled by lunacy. Consquences don’t matter as long as their passions or pride are honored.

 

[Shlomo]

I think you are leaving perhaps the most common scenario for rebellion out

Blindness to consequences, born of pride and/or passion.
Most of the truly evil people we can mention are not reasonable people, they have lost their ability to reason. They are ruled by lunacy. Consquences don’t matter as long as their passions or pride are honored.

Not at All. If you give yourself a trouble to do some analysis, you will see that your case mainly falls into #1 option: because of blindness they believe they can win. The other three components actually also contribute to your scenario.

That is all about keeping a common denominator with the original post.

But specifically regarding to your argument, I would like to point out that every lunatic has his logic. And Satan is the last to be blamed for the lack of it. Look around and see how successful he is.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

I think you are leaving perhaps the most common scenario for rebellion out

Blindness to consequences, born of pride and/or passion.
Most of the truly evil people we can mention are not reasonable people, they have lost their ability to reason. They are ruled by lunacy. Consquences don’t matter as long as their passions or pride are honored.

Exactly, they were blinded by their own pride and got caught up in it and could no longer see truth from what they wanted it to be. It’s like the opposite of being blinded by love. The same way some people can’t see things clearly because they are blinded by love, the fallen angels were blinded by their own pride and inflated egos and love for themselves. That kept them from seeing the truth. The deeper in they got, the more blind they became.

 

[BrunoMaria]

Several aspects I miss in this thread.
They where not at all absolutely sure they can’t win - tought they would of course.
Moreover so, since they knew all about heaven, and Lucifer was a same ranked “General” (Arch-Angel) as Michael was. All had their free will too.
The later fallen, under Michael defeated and finally by God condemned Angels, where more intelligent than any earthly intelligence.
Hell at the time didn’t exist.
They where at first cast upon earth.
God created Hell for them, when God made the Earth a Paradise for first humans.
Lucifer was a very high ranked Angel.
“Carrier of Light” compared with “The Morning Star”.
Match among others Revelation 12,7-11 and Isaiah 14,12.
Lucifer the Arch-Angel (and his legions) then was cast off heaven and became Satan, as Jesus mentioned in Luke 10,18.
Here it’s important to realize, that God did not create Satan as so often is said, but Lucifer made himself through this rebellion, from an Angel into a Devil the head of all devils - Satan.
Now, since there was no hell (yet) the rebels under Lucifer, hoped to become independent of God – might even be in another heaven. Since God is Love, they - just in case of defeat - never thought of any harder punishment than for a while being degraded and later forgiven and rehabilitated.
Now, every sin is rebellion against God, and they as we too, did not oversee the enormity of sin.
Since the rebellious Angels had lived for eternities with God, they knew God as pure Love only, and never imagines God’s wrath, which they had to experience then and will in all eternity.
Now of course they try to tear off God as many humans as possible. Not because they like humans, but they want a poor “revenge” on God who loves His humans as He loved all His Angels once, before some legions, those under Lucifer, revolted against God.

Yours
Bruno

 

[Robertanthony]

Several aspects I miss in this thread.
They where not at all absolutely sure they can’t win - tought they would of course.
Moreover so, since they knew all about heaven, and Lucifer was a same ranked “General” (Arch-Angel) as Michael was. All had their free will too.
The later fallen, under Michael defeated and finally by God condemned Angels, where more intelligent than any earthly intelligence.
Hell at the time didn’t exist.
They where at first cast upon earth.
God created Hell for them, when God made the Earth a Paradise for first humans.
Lucifer was a very high ranked Angel.
“Carrier of Light” compared with “The Morning Star”.
Match among others Revelation 12,7-11 and Isaiah 14,12.
Lucifer the Arch-Angel (and his legions) then was cast off heaven and became Satan, as Jesus mentioned in Luke 10,18.
Here it’s important to realize, that God did not create Satan as so often is said, but Lucifer made himself through this rebellion, from an Angel into a Devil the head of all devils - Satan.
Now, since there was no hell (yet) the rebels under Lucifer, hoped to become independent of God – might even be in another heaven. Since God is Love, they - just in case of defeat - never thought of any harder punishment **than for a while being degraded and later forgiven and rehabilitated. **Now, every sin is rebellion against God, and they as we too, did not oversee the enormity of sin.
Since the rebellious Angels had lived for eternities with God, they knew God as pure Love only, and never imagines God’s wrath, which they had to experience then and will in all eternity.
Now of course they try to tear off God as many humans as possible. Not because they like humans, but they want a poor “revenge” on God who loves His humans as He loved all His Angels once, before some legions, those under Lucifer, revolted against God.

Yours
Bruno

I like your idea that it had not occurred to the rebellious angels that the consequence would be that harsh in case of defeat. But I think most theologians agree thta given their higher and different intellect, once the angels had decided against God, that their choice was forever irreversible, sealed for eternity. If they weren’t so vicious I think I’d pity them.