Why did the Holy See ever allow female altar servers.

[Ottoviani]

That IS a bit of a head scratcher. I only became Catholic a few years ago, and didn’t really even pay attention to, or think about the altar servers one way or the other. Obviously, my whole Catholic life has been post V2. But when I get to think about it, as I get deeper into the Church, it seems like a bit of a disservice to the girls, (who I’ve watched do a fine job, by the way), because it can’t really lead to much of anything, can it? I’ll bet that in the earlier times that altar server would be the first step in discernment for a young man who would maybe end up in the priesthood.

Well, of course, girls don’t go to seminary, or become priests, so what is the end result of their service at the altar? I suppose it still calls them into a deeper and richer experience of the Holy Mass, right? I don’t know why there’s no boys doing this anymore, (at least in our parish). We have the girls, I think, because there are no boys. There are no boys because?? (I’ll look at other responses here). We all need to pray for vocations.

Peace,

Steven

The Church had excellent resons for not allowing females in the sanctuary area for almost all of Her history.
It obviously has absolutely nothing to do with any form of discrimination.

It has to do with training clerics to serve at the altar of Sacrifice, and clerics since Christ time, have only and can always only be men.,
Christ instituted His Church that way.

 

[BlindManWalking]

Which would be what? That looks to me like a lot of talking when what you mean is “I don’t know, actually.”

Do Nuns have it as part of their duties that they serve at the altar across the board?

No.

Do Monks? No.

Do Priests? Yes.

What might an altar boy do when he serves at the Altar? Realize his vocation to the priesthood and become trained for it so he doesn’t have to concentrate as much on the study of rubrics so much as the abstract issues of theology and philosophy.

Girls cannot become priests. They should not be serving at the Altar.

They can become Nuns. They should be focused on things they could do as Nuns. The Sacrifice of the Mass as performed by a Nun? Never seen it.

Per the actual history of the issue, only the Bishop over the diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska is acting traditionally.

Everyone else is throwing their daughters on the altar of modernism.

There are a lot of things that are allowed. It doesn’t make them right and good.

Technically, clown masses are allowed, though in practice, they’re absolutely in violation of the abstract.

If the Lord ever blesses me with a daughter, the only thing she is serving at church is snacks after Mass. Any son the Lord may bless me with will most definitely see his fair share of time until the vocations are at a number to disallow the need.

That IS a bit of a head scratcher. I only became Catholic a few years ago, and didn’t really even pay attention to, or think about the altar servers one way or the other. Obviously, my whole Catholic life has been post V2. But when I get to think about it, as I get deeper into the Church, it seems like a bit of a disservice to the girls, (who I’ve watched do a fine job, by the way), because it can’t really lead to much of anything, can it? I’ll bet that in the earlier times that altar server would be the first step in discernment for a young man who would maybe end up in the priesthood.

Well, of course, girls don’t go to seminary, or become priests, so what is the end result of their service at the altar? I suppose it still calls them into a deeper and richer experience of the Holy Mass, right? I don’t know why there’s no boys doing this anymore, (at least in our parish). We have the girls, I think, because there are no boys. There are no boys because?? (I’ll look at other responses here). We all need to pray for vocations.

Peace,

Steven

Your parish has no boys at all? Anyone tested the local water? Whats the story on population gender demographics for the non-Catholic children of similar age?

I’m done here.

 

[Cristiano]

The Church had excellent resons for not allowing females in the sanctuary area for almost all of Her history.
It obviously has absolutely nothing to do with any form of discrimination.

It has to do with training clerics to serve at the altar of Sacrifice, and clerics since Christ time, have only and can always only be men.,
Christ instituted His Church that way.

When I read this post I start to think that you had an ulterior motive to start this thread. Was your intention to start a thread to express your dislike of girls serving at the altar?

 

[Ottoviani]

When I read this post I start to think that you had an ulterior motive to start this thread. Was your intention to start a thread to express your dislike of girls serving at the altar?

No, to get at the truth.
I still would like to find the reason why JP II thought it would be good for the Church to allow female altar servers.

 

[superamazingman]

and we have at least 2 or 3 priests who continue to pour the precious blodd, post consecration, into vessels for distribution.

Um…that’s really serious and you need to let the bishop know. now.

 

[Phemie]

I saw altar girls in the Boise diocese in the mid '80s, well before the '94 date given above.
I would guess that, like Communion in the hand and sacrilegious sacred music, this abuse had become so common that it would have caused a great deal of dissention to abruptly set it straight. It was a battle that the Holy Father did not think was worth fighting at the time.
It is darn hard to put toothpaste back into the tube.

It happened after the 1983 Code of Canon law was promulgated. The language was easily interpreted as allowing female altar servers and so priests started allowing them. When some years later there was a question about the licity of such a decision, a dubium was submitted to Rome which confirmed that
a) yes, females could serve at the altar based on the wording, but that
b) the canon was permissive rather than presciptive, IOW, they could serve but only if the bishop allowed it and a priest could not be forced to allow them in his parish and/or at a Mass he was celebrating.

 

[domandcarols]

Not at all. But it would change the number of men who answer the vocation they have.

Agreed.

 

[MarkThompson]

Do Nuns have it as part of their duties that they serve at the altar across the board?

No.

Do Monks? No.

Do Priests? Yes.

What might an altar boy do when he serves at the Altar? Realize his vocation to the priesthood and become trained for it so he doesn’t have to concentrate as much on the study of rubrics so much as the abstract issues of theology and philosophy.

Girls cannot become priests. They should not be serving at the Altar.

They can become Nuns. They should be focused on things they could do as Nuns. The Sacrifice of the Mass as performed by a Nun? Never seen it.

But you said it would be problematic to “hav[e] boys do Nun things.” What are these “Nun things” that boys should be forbidden from doing?

 

[superamazingman]

priest could not be forced to allow them in his parish and/or at a Mass he was celebrating.

I’d love to see that happen in real life today! A parochical vicar rejecting altar girls even though his pastor allows them. Ha! Probably would make national news or something.

 

[Cristiano]

But you said it would be problematic to “hav[e] boys do Nun things.” What are these “Nun things” that boys should be forbidden from doing?

Just a lot of bad spirituality and bad theology in this thread.

 

[Dicerning]

I’ll bet that in the earlier times that altar server would be the first step in discernment for a young man who would maybe end up in the priesthood.

Peace,

Steven

It was.

 

[justme]

The Church had excellent resons for not allowing females in the sanctuary area for almost all of Her history.

And those reason are?

Becuase its not true that females have not been allowed in the sanctuary for 2000 years.

Women have most certain been allowed in the sanctuary, pre-vatican II women were allowed to clean the sanctuary. Through out the history of the Church women have been allowed in the sanctuary, even to serve, within cloistered women’s monasteries. The deaconess also entered the sanctuary to receive the Eucharist along with the deacons.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Do Nuns have it as part of their duties that they serve at the altar across the board?

No.

Do Monks? No.

Actually Monks do serve at the altar. There are no such things as altar boys in a monastery, the monks fill the roles of servers.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Actually the Pope is not impeccable at all.

As to matters of the law and discipline where he is not constrained by doctrine, he has the final word - good, bad or indifferent.

Interestingly enough…some people just can’t leave it at that. They give me the impression that they spend all their time fuming about it. Get a life! it seems to me that the beauty of the Catholic Church is her wisdom. People nit picking about this issue remind me of a spouse CONSTANTLY berating the other spouse on a decision. Doesn’t seem to be good for your spirituality…

 

[BlindManWalking]

Actually Monks do serve at the altar. There are no such things as altar boys in a monastery, the monks fill the roles of servers.

Across the board, if you read carefully, is what I said.

It is not their function to come into a secular parish and do this. The same goes for Nuns and their facilities.

Boys can become Priests, girls can’t.

Girls can become Nuns, boys can’t.

In the end, I have no dog in this fight. I am at home in the FSSP and never really enjoyed visiting relatives.

It does pain me, though, when I see relatives allowing their daughters to take the spot of eldest son, so to speak.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Across the board, if you read carefully, is what I said.

“Across the board” - Including or applying to all categories or members.

So my understand of that usage means that Monks do and the usage of altar boys is not “across the board” as it is not used everywhere.

I guess I just don’t get your usage of the term.

It is not their function to come into a secular parish and do this. The same goes for Nuns and their facilities.

Boys can become Priests, girls can’t.

Girls can become Nuns, boys can’t.

Boys can become Monks, girls can’t.

Still don’t see the argument you are trying to make here.

Nuns are cloistered monastics just as Monks are. They do much the same thing. Sisters are uncloistered or semi-cloistered religious women who work in some ministry in the greater Church just as brothers (friars as well) are uncloistered or semi-cloistered religious men who do much the same.

There is no such things as “Nun things”. There are no “facilities” that are special to Nuns.

 

[BlindManWalking]

Interestingly enough…some people just can’t leave it at that. They give me the impression that they spend all their time fuming about it. Get a life! it seems to me that the beauty of the Catholic Church is her wisdom. People nit picking about this issue remind me of a spouse CONSTANTLY berating the other spouse on a decision. Doesn’t seem to be good for your spirituality…

Ironically, it’s the issue of spirituality which makes this subject so frothy.

The Church allows this, but doesn’t say “do this”.

The Bishops have said “do this” and the priests have said, “yessa masta” when they, in reality, are condoning it as well because they have the choice which they are either ignoring, or don’t know about.

In other words, shoot tradition in the face and then wonder why there is blood and brains everywhere, why no boys want to be priests, etc.

Seminary AIN’T college. One might go a long way in the program only to suddenly realize or be told that this ain’t their vocation despite doing everything correctly as far as academics. We need to be putting in more than we expect to get out. We’re putting in dismal numbers and somehow expect to get larger numbers than we put in.

A bit limited in its coverage, but this article is very telling: usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-03-22-altar-girls_x.htm

 

[followingtheway]

That is not what I asked.
I asked why girl altar boys were allowed.
What is the reason for it.
Not if it is a good thing or bad.

I would like to apologize. It’s just that I’ve met people would actually be upset over female altar servers

 

[BlindManWalking]

**“Across the board” - Including or applying to all categories or members.

So my understand of that usage means that Monks do and the usage of altar boys is not “across the board” as it is not used everywhere.

I guess I just don’t get your usage of the term.
**

The status quo. What one can expect to go into any parish in the US or elsewhere and see. A monk in a secular parish as an altar server? This is normal? Since when?
**
Boys can become Monks, girls can’t.

Still don’t see the argument you are trying to make here.**

Indeed, and boys can also become priests, whereas a girl never can. You know exactly the point I’m trying to make. The stupid angle is ridiculous and self-demeaning.

Nuns are cloistered monastics just as Monks are. They do much the same thing. Sisters are uncloistered or semi-cloistered religious women who work in some ministry in the greater Church just as brothers (friars as well) are uncloistered or semi-cloistered religious men who do much the same.

And outside of those communities, do Nuns serve at the altar, again, as a normal thing in most parishes? I could care less what Nuns or Monks do in their religious communities. I do not attend Mass in their monasteries, nor do I attend the OF. The default is BOYS at the altar, the exception, the allowance, the travesty, is girls at the altar while boys sit in the pews. Whatever happened to societal expectations of boys?

There is no such things as “Nun things”. There are no “facilities” that are special to Nuns.

But there are no faculties for a Nun in most parishes in terms of serving at the altar. The little girls who might pursue religious life gain nothing by serving at the altar.

History, tradition, and common sense just dictates that while girls might be allowed, they shouldn’t be up there when boys are available. As others have said, including women, boys of that age just don’t work with girls. As others have said, when the girls were disallowed, the boys returned. When girls return to the fold, boys leave.

This stupidity is absolutely killing vocations!!!

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Ironically, it’s the issue of spirituality which makes this subject so frothy.

The Church allows this, but doesn’t say “do this”.

The Bishops have said “do this” and the priests have said, “yessa masta” when they, in reality, are condoning it as well because they have the choice which they are either ignoring, or don’t know about.

In other words, shoot tradition in the face and then wonder why there is blood and brains everywhere, why no boys want to be priests, etc.

Seminary AIN’T college. One might go a long way in the program only to suddenly realize or be told that this ain’t their vocation despite doing everything correctly as far as academics. We need to be putting in more than we expect to get out. We’re putting in dismal numbers and somehow expect to get larger numbers than we put in.

A bit limited in its coverage, but this article is very telling: usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-03-22-altar-girls_x.htm

Frothy? Seriously I’m not going to listen much to someone who would only allow their daughter to make snacks. She can’t sing in the choir?

Yes the church allows it…which also means it hasn’t said its a terrible thing…Some of you are but oh well.

I know from experience…back when I was a girl…there were no altar girls…and guess what…vocations were dying…when I got to an age when vocations should have been booming from no altar girls…they were dying. My two brothers who served? Not even Catholic anymore.

What parents need to do is create an expectation of service…not let them sign up at will like it’s basketball practice.

And yes, I as a women serve as an EMHC and I have had to help twice the RCIA group lead the stations of the cross. Once I had to read as the leader…which meant leading people in prayer…why? Because the other part was the part of Jesus and the only other person who would step up was my husband so obviously he had that part. Just because I serve as an EMHC does not mean I think I’m going to be a priest for crying out loud.