Why did The Orthodox Church "change" or "innovate" The Eucharist?

[2ndGen]

For thousands of years, Christians used unleavened bread to celebrate The Thanksgiving Meal.

Why did The Orthodox Church “change” The Eucharist to fit their unorthodox Christian beliefs?

 

[2ndGen]

change
–verb (used with object)

1. to make the form, nature, content, future course, etc., of (something) different from what it is or from what it would be if left alone: to change one’s name; to change one’s opinion; to change the course of history.
2. to transform or convert (usually fol. by into): The witch changed the prince into a toad.
3. to substitute another or others for; exchange for something else, usually of the same kind: She changed her shoes when she got home from the office.
4. to give and take reciprocally; interchange: to change places with someone.
5. to transfer from one (conveyance) to another: You’ll have to change planes in Chicago.
6. to give or get smaller money in exchange for: to change a five-dollar bill.
7. to give or get foreign money in exchange for: to change dollars into francs.
8. to remove and replace the covering or coverings of: to change a bed; to change a baby.
   –verb (used without object)
9. to become different: Overnight the nation’s mood changed.
10. to become altered or modified: Colors change if they are exposed to the sun.
11. to become transformed or converted (usually fol. by into): The toad changed into a prince again.
12. to pass gradually into (usually fol. by to or into): Summer changed to autumn.
13. to make a change or an exchange: If you want to sit next to the window, I’ll change with you.
14. to transfer between trains or other conveyances: We can take the local and change to an express at the next stop.
15. to change one’s clothes: She changed into jeans.
16. (of the moon) to pass from one phase to another.
17. (of the voice) to become deeper in tone; come to have a lower register: The boy’s voice began to change when he was thirteen.
    –noun 1
18. the act or fact of changing; fact of being changed.
19. a transformation or modification; alteration: They noticed the change in his facial expression.
20. a variation or deviation: a change in the daily routine.
21. the substitution of one thing for another: We finally made the change to an oil-burning furnace.
22. variety or novelty: Let’s try a new restaurant for a change.
23. the passing from one place, state, form, or phase to another: a change of seasons; social change.
24. Jazz. harmonic progression from one tonality to another; modulation.
25. the supplanting of one thing by another.
26. anything that is or may be substituted for another.
27. a fresh set of clothing.
28. money given in exchange for an equivalent of higher denomination.
29. a balance of money that is returned when the sum tendered in payment is larger than the sum due.
30. coins of low denomination.
31. any of the various sequences in which a peal of bells may be rung.
32. Also,'change. British. exchange (def. 10).
33. Obsolete. changefulness; caprice.
    —Verb phrase
34. change off, a. to take turns with another, as at doing a task.
    b. to alternate between two tasks or between a task and a rest break.
    —Idioms
35. change front, Military. to shift a military force in another direction.
36. change hands. hand (def. 47).
37. change one’s mind, to change one’s opinions or intentions.
38. ring the changes, a. to perform all permutations possible in ringing a set of tuned bells, as in a bell tower of a church.
    b. to vary the manner of performing an action or of discussing a subject; repeat with variations.

—Synonyms 1. transmute, transform; vary, mutate; amend, modify. Change, alter both mean to make a difference in the state or condition of a thing or to substitute another state or condition. To change is to make a material difference so that the thing is distinctly different from what it was: to change one’s opinion. To alter is to make some partial change, as in appearance, but usually to preserve the identity: to alter a dress (to change a dress would mean to put on a different one). 3. replace, trade. 4. trade. 7. convert. 10. vary, mutate, amend. 18. transmutation, mutation, conversion, vicissitude. 21. exchange. 25, 26. replacement.
—Antonyms 10. remain. 18. permanence.

(Just so that there’s no “confusion” as to what change means)

 

[Nicholas82]

They didn’t “change” anything… by the way your Eastern Catholic bretheren use leavened bread, so you might want to watch out calling fellow Catholics “unorthodox”.

 

[1holycatholic]

For thousands of years, Christians used unleavened bread to celebrate The Thanksgiving Meal.

Why did The Orthodox Church “change” The Eucharist to fit their unorthodox Christian beliefs?

catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9407qq.asp
Q: Eastern-rite Catholics use leavened bread in Holy Communion, but Western-rite Catholics use unleavened bread. Why the difference?

A: The Eastern tradition likens yeast in bread to the soul in the body. The soul gives life, and therefore the “living bread” of the Eucharist must have yeast. The West uses unleavened bread because that is what Jesus used in the Last Supper.

When the Orthodox Church broke from Rome in 1054, the Patriarch of Constantinople condemned the West for using unleavened bread, but that was a spurious charge. The Council of Florence approved the use of either kind of bread in 1439, so the use of leavened or unleavened bread is a question of licitness, not validity. This was infallibly defined.

The council stated, “We have likewise defined that the body of Christ is truly effected in unleavened or leavened wheaten bread and that priests ought to effect the body of our Lord in either one of these, and each one namely according to the custom of his Church, whether that of the West or of the East” (Decree for the Greeks).

Western-rite Catholics are not permitted to use leavened bread, however (Code of Canon Law 926). The Church desires uniformity to show that the sacrifice of the Mass is the same sacrifice everywhere. Using leavened bread would not invalidate the Eucharist, but it would be a grave error to disobey the Church and a long, venerable tradition. Eastern-rite churches in communion with Rome are allowed to retain their own tradition of using leavened bread.
Is this a trick question?

 

[Nicholas82]

Maybe it would be better to simply ask why the Orthodox Church and The Eastern Catholic Churches use leavened bread, and leave the self-righteous commentary out.

 

[2ndGen]

Nicholas82;

They didn’t “change” anything…

Are you saying that Jesus used leavened bread at The Last Supper?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Are you saying that Jesus used leavened bread at The Last Supper?

I think so.

I thought it was Jewish custom that, the night before Passover, the place needed to be prepared by removing the leaven from that location. The Last Supper co-incided at this time.

:twocents:

I’m happy for somebody to correct me on the above because I’m not sure of these details.

 

[2ndGen]

I think so.

I thought it was Jewish custom that, the night before Passover, the place needed to be prepared by removing the leaven from that location. The Last Supper co-incided at this time.

:twocents:

I’m happy for somebody to correct me on the above because I’m not sure of these details.

Well,

Nick “said” that they didn’t change The Eucharist, but he hasn’t proven how they haven’t changed it when scripture tells us that Jesus used unleavened bread.

 

[Nicholas82]

Well,

Nick “said” that they didn’t change The Eucharist, but he hasn’t proven how they haven’t changed it when scripture tells us that Jesus used unleavened bread.

Where do you find in scripture that it was unleavened bread?

 

[Nicholas82]

Well,

Nick “said” that they didn’t change The Eucharist, but he hasn’t proven how they haven’t changed it when scripture tells us that Jesus used unleavened bread.

Greek text of the NT in all four Gospels describes the bread at the Last Supper as artos (normal leavened bread).

As well, the Last Supper wasn’t a passover meal, but a sader meal, happening before the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
You agree that Jesus ate the Last Supper before he was arrested and brought before Pilate, right?

“Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium, and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium, lest they should be defiled, so that they might eat the Passover.” (John18:28)

So the Jews who brought Him before Pilate would not enter, as it would render them unclean for the Passover. The Last Supper was therefore before the passover, and as was mentioned, leavened bread was being used.

 

[Nicholas82]

Fr. Joseph Jungman – in his book The Mass of the Roman Rite – states that:

"In the West, various ordinances appeared from the ninth century on, all demanding the exclusive use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist. A growing solicitude for the Blessed Sacrament and a desire to employ only the best and whitest bread, along with various scriptural considerations – all favored this development.

“Still, the new custom did not come into exclusive vogue until the middle of the eleventh century. Particularly in Rome it was not universally accepted till after the general infiltration of various usages from the North” [Joseph Jungman, The Mass of the Roman Rite, volume II, pages 33-34]

Fr. Jungman goes on to say that, “. . . the opinion put forward by J. Mabillon, Dissertatio de pane eucharistia, in his answer to the Jesuit J. Sirmond, Disquisitio de azymo, namely, that in the West it was always the practice to use only unleavened bread, is no longer tenable” [Jungman, The Mass of the Roman Rite, volume II, page 33]

"Now, the fact that the West changed its practice and began using unleavened bread in the 8th and 9th century – instead of the traditional leavened bread – is confirmed by the research of Fr. William O’Shea, who noted that along with various other innovative practices from Northern Europe, the use of unleavened bread began to infiltrate into the Roman liturgy at the end of the first millennium, because as he put it, “Another change introduced into the Roman Rite in France and Germany at the time * was the use of unleavened bread and of thin white wafers or hosts instead of the loaves of leavened bread used hitherto” [Fr. William O’Shea, The Worship of the Church, page 128].

"Moreover, this change in Western liturgical practice was also noted by Dr. Johannes H. Emminghaus in his book, The Eucharist: Essence, Form, Celebration, because as he said: “The Eucharistic bread has been unleavened in the Latin rite since the 8th century – that is, it is prepared simply from flour and water, without the addition of leaven or yeast. . . . in the first millennium of the Church’s history, both in East and West, the bread normally used for the Eucharist was ordinary ‘daily bread,’ that is, leavened bread, and the Eastern Church uses it still today; for the most part, they strictly forbid the use of unleavened bread. The Latin Church, by contrast, has not considered this question very important.” [Dr. Johannes H. Emminghaus, The Eucharist: Essence, Form, Celebration, page 162]

“Thus, with the foregoing information in mind, it is clear that the use of leavened bread by the Eastern Churches represents the ancient practice of the undivided Church, while the use of unleavened bread by the Western Church was an innovation introduced near the end of the first millennium.”*

 

[2ndGen]

Where do you find in scripture that it was unleavened bread?

Matthew 26
The Last Passover
20(X)Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples.
21As they were eating, He said, “(Y)Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me.”

22Being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, “Surely not I, Lord?”

23And He answered, "(Z)He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.

24"The Son of Man is to go, (AA)just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! (AB)It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

25And (AC)Judas, who was betraying Him, said, “Surely it is not I, (AD)Rabbi?” Jesus said to him, “(AE)You have said it yourself.”

The Lord’s Supper Instituted
26(AF)While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and (AG)after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”

27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;

28for (AH)this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for (AI)many for forgiveness of sins.

29"But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom."

30(AJ)After singing a hymn, they went out to (AK)the Mount of Olives.

===========================================

Passover Bread

The Jewish festival of Passover (Hebrew, and Yiddish: פֶּסַח, Tiberian: pɛsaħ, Israeli: Pesach, Pesah, Pesakh) is celebrated on the 14th day of the month called Nisan (Lev 23:4; Num 9:3,5, Num 28:16), first month of the Jewish year. It immediately precedes the Festival of the Unleavened Bread (חַג הַמַּצּוֹת, ħaɣ ham:asʕθ, Chag Hamatzot/s), a Jewish holiday which begins on the 15th day of Nisan (Lev 23:6, Num 28:17, Num 33:3) and is celebrated in the northern spring season. In 2008, it arrives at nightfall on April 19.

 

[2ndGen]

Jewish days don’t start the next sunrise, but at the sunset before the next sunrise.

Plus…

"Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?” (Matt 26:17)
"On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?” (Mark 14:12)

"Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching (Luke 22:1) … Then came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. (Luke 22:7)

I don’t see that these passages leave any room for doubt that (1) the Last Supper was the Passover meal, and (2) that it was therefore necessarily unleavened bread they ate, in accordance with Mosaic Law …

'They shall eat the flesh that same night, roasted with fire, and they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. (Exodus 12:8)

'Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, but on the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses; for whoever eats anything leavened from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. (Exodus 12:15)

'You shall also observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt; therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as a permanent ordinance. (Exodus 12:17)

greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00C213

In Koine Greek (ancient Greek), “artos” means just bread. There is no connation as to whether is or isn’t leavened. That is only a distinction in Modern Greek. Guess which Greek The New Testament was written in?

 

[sokoticasiva]

Jewish days don’t start the next sunrise, but at the sunset before the next sunrise.

Isa Almisry might be willing to repeat what he and Father Ambrose already said about the subject on now deleted posts on a former OC board.

There was a fine and comprehensive historical account on the subject there and is now deleted as inappropriate to be read by RC.

 

[Nicholas82]

So it’s St Matthew against St John? You’ll find that both sides are able to make equally convincing arguments for their position. You will also find the argument, however strong or weak, that even Rome used leavened bread; not only in the earliest times, but even after the East/West schism, until Northern practices eventually took over.

Most scholars believe we will probably never know for sure whether leavened or unleavened bread was used at the Last Supper, but the East maintains that it has used leavened bread from the earliest times- and it certainly was not something that developed after the schism as you seem to suggest. If you want a headache feel free to read extensively both sides of the argument…**

 

[2ndGen]

Isa Almisry might be willing to repeat what he and Father Ambrose already said about the subject on now deleted posts on a former OC board.

There was a fine and comprehensive historical account on the subject there and is now deleted as inappropriate to be read by RC.

It doesn’t take thousands of chararcters to prove a point.

The truth can be easily repeated by a layman without having to resort to Encyclopedias of information (unless such proof is requested).

I’m still waiting for Isa to tell me where before the 11th Century The Eastern Orthodox Church is proven to have existed or where The Church Fathers stated (as it’s been stated by some Eastern Orthodox Christians) that they belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church (I only have seen The Church Fathers defending The Catholic Church).

 

[2ndGen]

So it’s St Matthew against St John? You’ll find that both sides are able to make equally convincing arguments for their position. You will also find the argument, however strong or weak, that even Rome used leavened bread; not only in the earliest times, but even after the East/West schism, until Northern practices eventually took over.

Most scholars believe we will probably never know for sure whether leavened or unleavened bread was used at the Last Supper, but the East maintains that it has used leavened bread from the earliest times- and it certainly was not something that developed after the schism as you seem to suggest. If you want a headache feel free to read extensively both sides of the argument…**

You asked me where in The Holy Bible it states that they used unleavened bread. I showed you. Accept it without “adding” on to the exchange and without “innovating” the debate.

I never brought up whether or not The Catholic Church used leavened or unleavened bread. But then again, we’re not the ones saying “we never changed” either.

Now, since it’s been proven that Jesus used unleavened bread, why did The Eastern Orthodox Church “change” and “innovate” The Eucharist from traditional orthodox Christianity?

 

[Nicholas82]

It doesn’t take thousands of chararcters to prove a point.

The truth can be easily repeated by a layman without having to resort to Encyclopedias of information (unless such proof is requested).

I’m still waiting for Isa to tell me where before the 11th Century The Eastern Orthodox Church is proven to have existed or where The Church Fathers stated (as it’s been stated by some Eastern Orthodox Christians) that they belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church (I only have seen The Church Fathers defending The Catholic Church).

The Orthodox Church considers itself to be fully the “One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church…” as the Creed states. The East seems to have made use of the title “Orthodox” in distinguishing itself from those it considers heterodox, while the West seems to have taken “Catholic”. You will certainly find references to the “orthodox faith” in the writings of the fathers. You obviously know more about this business than the triumphalist attitude and feigned innocence of your first post would lead one to believe.

My best guess is that you imagine yourself clever from the way you conduct yourself in your post where you keep asking someone to show you “The Roman Catholic Church”. Maybe you could fast from vanity for lent? I think the knight picture most likely sums up how you feel about yourself.

 

[2ndGen]

The Orthodox Church considers itself to be fully the “One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church…” as the Creed states. The East seems to have made use of the title “Orthodox” in distinguishing itself from those it considers heterodox, while the West seems to have taken “Catholic”. You will certainly find references to the “orthodox faith” in the writings of the fathers. You obviously know more about this business than the triumphalist attitude and feigned innocence of your first post would lead one to believe.

 

[Nicholas82]

Nicholas82;3299692:

There is no doubt that The Catholic Church is orthodox Christianity. The same Church Fathers refer to The Catholic Church as “orthodox”.

Different topic.

Maybe you could fast from judgement and work out your own salvation.

No need to get bitter just because you couldn’t answer the question.



http://www.gambling911.com/Patriots-Lose.jpg

The Western portion of the Catholic Church departed from the orthodox catholic faith mentioned by those fathers. To use those quotes as if they refer to the Roman Catholic Church as it is today doesn’t mean very much.