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Krisdun
Guest
As opposed to what happened in countries such as England and Scotland in the British Isles?
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adamhovey1988
Guest
I’m not sure. Keep in mind, there are Protestants in Ireland, and not just in the North. There are some counties in Ireland that do have fairly significant Protestant populations. But I think one reason might be large-scale emigration. Keep in mind, a lot of the Protestants that lived in Ireland, left. But why it stayed overwhelmingly Catholic, I have no idea.
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steph03
Guest
Protestants did well when they had political support… I guess they didn’t get it in Ireland…
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TK421
Guest
Similar to the Great Schism, the success or failures of the protestants was largely dependent on the rulers and powers-that-be. Whether or not a monarch was sympathetic to the protestant or Catholics determined the fate of the subject. Dissidents were punished legally and economically.
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VonDerTann
Guest
…But the King of England was the monarch of Ireland. Ireland became an independent republic only in 1937.
This is actually a very good question. I have no idea. Anyone?
This is actually a very good question. I have no idea. Anyone?
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
The fact that the Irish people didn’t like England telling them what to do, including with respect to religion, was a big part of it.
Taking a broader view, the Reformation was driven by middle-class people who didn’t like being ordered around by the Church. Germany and England had a lot of middle-class people. Ireland didn’t. People were mostly quite poor, with a few rich guys at the top of the food chain running the show.
Taking a broader view, the Reformation was driven by middle-class people who didn’t like being ordered around by the Church. Germany and England had a lot of middle-class people. Ireland didn’t. People were mostly quite poor, with a few rich guys at the top of the food chain running the show.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
You might start by reading about the Penal Laws.
The English didn’t really push Protestantism on Ireland at first because they wanted to keep the Irish upper class on their side. The Irish upper class was primarily Catholic and not really interested in getting on the “Church of England” bus.
Of course later the English decided they needed to push the issue and things soon got ugly.
Edited to add, @(name removed by moderator) can you pop in here please and give the Irish viewpoint, thx
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Vico
Guest
The Reformation was a sign of English supremacy over the Irish so there was reluctance. There was a civil war led by ousted King James II. The Battle of the Boyne (1690) was the beginning of Protestant control over Catholics in Ireland.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
With respect to Scotland, it should be noted that they mostly went Presbyterian, and for a while the Presbyterians were persecuted quite a bit by the Anglicans also.
It was really a bad time for religion all around in the British Isles. Lots of people just left and went to colonize someplace else.
It was really a bad time for religion all around in the British Isles. Lots of people just left and went to colonize someplace else.
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GKMotley
Guest
I was about to suggest that.
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Donkey23
Guest
It failed because the faith of the Protestants was mainly used by the English, thus reinforcing the people to believe that’s the new religion was of the enemy. Plus Catholicism is richly tied to the Irish people. For example l, Now if your worst enemy wore black shoes, and were trying to make you wear them, would you? Vast answer would be no because you don’t want to be like your enemy.
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Krisdun
Guest
Did the clergy and lay people of Ireland face the same severity of punishments for not converting to Protestantism (or renouncing their Catholic faith) as was the case in England at the time?
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Vico
Guest
Yet it was the Penal Laws that reduced the Irish people to serfs.
The saying is: Remember Limerick and Saxon Perfidy!
The saying is: Remember Limerick and Saxon Perfidy!
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I also don’t think the Irish even at their lowest ebb ever would refer to themselves as “serfs”.
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Symphorian
Guest
The Tudors held an ambivalent attitude to Ireland after Henry VIII had unilaterally turned the Medieval Lordship into a Kingdom in 1541. The Reformation which the Tudors tried to introduce lost allegiance from the bulk of the native Irish population, both the Gaelic and English speakers (the so called ‘Old English’). They saw it as an alien attack.
The early years of the Reformation in the 1540’s & early 1550’s was marked by negotiation rather than exploitation. Most Irish Bishops accepted Henry VIII’s oath of supremacy although many kept channels of communication open with Rome. Despite opposition, the first English BCP secured fairly widespread use in Ireland under Edward VI.
Mary Tudor restored traditional religion to Ireland. She implemented plans to plant immigrant ‘New English’ settlers into the Midlands Region of Ireland. Elizabeth I later promoted further plantation schemes. Plantation however proved fatal to ‘Old English’ religious loyalty to England as well as an obstacle to similar loyalty among Gaelic lords.
Plantation provoked major warfare in Ireland in the 1570’s and 1590’s. The incoming English saw Gaelic culture as an obstacle whilst the Irish viewed the incoming English as enemies. The Gaelic aristocracy allied with agents of the Counter-Reformation and with England’s enemies in mainland Europe, mainly Spain. The Tudor regime banned the Catholic Mass in Ireland in 1568 but this proved futile as religious energy was all on the Catholic side having formed its political alliance with the Irish nobility. By the 1580’s the older Irish clergy many of whom had continued to maintain traditional Catholic worship whilst outwardly conforming were either dying off or quitting the established Church in favour of Rome. Their replacements had to choose between allegiance to Elizabeth or the Pope. Increasing numbers chose the Pope.
The Irish aristocracy, gentry and town rulers established their own contacts with the rest of Europe independently of Tudor England. There was abundant sea access to Europe that could bypass England. Many Irish left for Catholic Spain or France either permanently to get an education in a non-Protestant setting. Many men trained as priests in Spain and then returned home to Ireland to build on the popularity of the mendicant Orders whose communal life was unbroken through the Reformation in parts of Ireland beyond effective English control. The Jesuits had established a permanent presence in Ireland towards the end of the 16th century.
Unlike in Wales where Protestantism was successful partly due to Welsh translations of the Bible and the BCP, attempts to promote Protestantism in Gaelic were late and half hearted. Elizabeth took personal interest in efforts to create a Bible in Gaelic but a complete Gaelic Bible didn’t appear until the late 17th century. In 1621 the Dublin secular administration officially suspended enforcement of the monetary fines for Catholic recusancy and this was one of the chief indications that the established Church of Ireland was grudgingly beginning to admit defeat. By 1635 there was a newly built Jesuit church in Dublin, a victory for the Counter-Reformation.
The early years of the Reformation in the 1540’s & early 1550’s was marked by negotiation rather than exploitation. Most Irish Bishops accepted Henry VIII’s oath of supremacy although many kept channels of communication open with Rome. Despite opposition, the first English BCP secured fairly widespread use in Ireland under Edward VI.
Mary Tudor restored traditional religion to Ireland. She implemented plans to plant immigrant ‘New English’ settlers into the Midlands Region of Ireland. Elizabeth I later promoted further plantation schemes. Plantation however proved fatal to ‘Old English’ religious loyalty to England as well as an obstacle to similar loyalty among Gaelic lords.
Plantation provoked major warfare in Ireland in the 1570’s and 1590’s. The incoming English saw Gaelic culture as an obstacle whilst the Irish viewed the incoming English as enemies. The Gaelic aristocracy allied with agents of the Counter-Reformation and with England’s enemies in mainland Europe, mainly Spain. The Tudor regime banned the Catholic Mass in Ireland in 1568 but this proved futile as religious energy was all on the Catholic side having formed its political alliance with the Irish nobility. By the 1580’s the older Irish clergy many of whom had continued to maintain traditional Catholic worship whilst outwardly conforming were either dying off or quitting the established Church in favour of Rome. Their replacements had to choose between allegiance to Elizabeth or the Pope. Increasing numbers chose the Pope.
The Irish aristocracy, gentry and town rulers established their own contacts with the rest of Europe independently of Tudor England. There was abundant sea access to Europe that could bypass England. Many Irish left for Catholic Spain or France either permanently to get an education in a non-Protestant setting. Many men trained as priests in Spain and then returned home to Ireland to build on the popularity of the mendicant Orders whose communal life was unbroken through the Reformation in parts of Ireland beyond effective English control. The Jesuits had established a permanent presence in Ireland towards the end of the 16th century.
Unlike in Wales where Protestantism was successful partly due to Welsh translations of the Bible and the BCP, attempts to promote Protestantism in Gaelic were late and half hearted. Elizabeth took personal interest in efforts to create a Bible in Gaelic but a complete Gaelic Bible didn’t appear until the late 17th century. In 1621 the Dublin secular administration officially suspended enforcement of the monetary fines for Catholic recusancy and this was one of the chief indications that the established Church of Ireland was grudgingly beginning to admit defeat. By 1635 there was a newly built Jesuit church in Dublin, a victory for the Counter-Reformation.
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Vico
Guest
It was the battle cry then.
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Dan_Defender
Guest
I am sure part of it was the view by the Irish population that this was a forced anglicization of their culture. Also, it didn’t help that the monasteries were dissolved and the land given to unworthy lay people.
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dochawk
Guest
There was strong resistance to the anti-catholic British rule.
The Ancient Order of Hibernians was formed for the very purpose of hiding Catholic priests in Ireland from the British army, which would summarily execute them.
There was a full spectrum of resistance groups–and everything past the AOH had to be surpassed afterwards . . .
In England, it was the English church switching allegiance.
In Ireland, it was the English church imposing the Irish.
The Ancient Order of Hibernians was formed for the very purpose of hiding Catholic priests in Ireland from the British army, which would summarily execute them.
There was a full spectrum of resistance groups–and everything past the AOH had to be surpassed afterwards . . .
In England, it was the English church switching allegiance.
In Ireland, it was the English church imposing the Irish.
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PickyPicky
Guest
I think @Tis_Bearself had a very significant point in mentioning the relatively small middle class in Ireland, which was true really until the C20th. Key to this were the iniquitous land laws, which prevented the acquisition of capital by tenant farmers, made it uneconomic for farmers to improve land, and effectively throttled the emergence of a modern economy. Only in the last decades of the C19th were these laws liberalised.
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