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water
Guest
Lunatic: an insane person … but - How did he lie? Could you give some good examples of Jesus lying?
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Ahimsa
Guest
I’m not stalking you. I came upon your post purely by coincidence (or was it a miracle?That said, the existence of miracles is an interesting problem to me. I have always thought that faith was important in the belief in a god. As far as I remember, the bible will back me up on that one, and perhaps Ahimsa will too. So, if miracles do indeed exist and prove the existance of the supernatural, then what is the use of faith? In fact, does that not negate the need for faith? And what about all the miracles that believers in other religions experience? Does that mean that god is not simply Christian or Muslim or Hindu? Would a generic theistic god be a better explanation of the observance of miracles in all religions?
).I don’t believe in miracles. I simply believe that there are things that modern Western science has not yet discovered, and will never discover, as long it continues to limit itself to certain methodological approaches. (Indeed, I’m quite happy for modern Western science to continue to limit itself to certain methodological approaches, since those approaches are optimal methods for questions dealing with how matter and energy interact).
A miracle, to me, is something that violates a law. I would suggest that laws are not simply laws of nature, but also laws of supernature. I would also suggest that laws of nature or supernature are never violated, thus, precluding any ‘miracles’ from happening.
Instead of ‘miracle’, I would prefer the term SAW, short for “Signs And Wonders”. SAW might seem miraculous to us, but that’s only because we are ignorant of the laws (whether natural or supernatural) underlying them.
It is possible to experience SAW arising from supernatural phenomena, and once you experience such, you no longer have to ‘believe’ that the supernatural exists. In that sense, you no longer need ‘faith’ to believe that the supernatural exists. But the issue is not whether the ‘supernatural’ exists. The issue is, is there a reason to be hopeful? That’s where the faith comes in.
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mexilad
Guest
The question is:
What was the reason that you left the Catholic Church?
It is a long story that is interesting to me and six other people, four of whom are dead.
The reader’s digest version is that I was a cradle Catholic and serious about my faith into my late teens. When I was fourteen or so, one of my parish priests told me that if I lost the fiaht in high school that would be ok. The church would be here when I was ready to come back. he told me it was very common for Catholics to lose the faith in high school and college.
Now, when he told me this, my faith was strong. Leaving the Church was the furthest thing from my mind. In fact, if you told me that is four more years I would leave the Church, I would not have believed you.
I used to think this was a well meaning yet liberal priest who planted the seed of doubt. However, I believe it is equally possible this was a good priest who was inoculating me from a journey to hell. When I decided to come home to the Catholic church, I knew I could.
I found out priest in my parish was sleepy with every woman that would hold still long enough. That was the major blow. IF the priest would not follow the rules, why should I. It was the typical formula for a teen who did not wantto be bothered by rules.
Where did you go?
I sort of hung out for awhile. I pretended to be abuddist, because it impressed girls. I studied eastern religions and philosopy and new age knuckle head stuff.
I eventually found my way to evengelical protestantism. It was the first time I really studied the bible indepth. I found answers. I later found abunch of questions.
Why did you chose where you went?
In short, I was looking to belong to something. Iwas looking for truth and hoping it would let me do whatever I wanted to do. This basically meant I would have permission to have sex with any woman who was willing and desirable. I believe the quest for truth and the Holy Spirit got me back on track. I eventually came home to the Catholic Church.
What was the reason that you left the Catholic Church?
It is a long story that is interesting to me and six other people, four of whom are dead.
The reader’s digest version is that I was a cradle Catholic and serious about my faith into my late teens. When I was fourteen or so, one of my parish priests told me that if I lost the fiaht in high school that would be ok. The church would be here when I was ready to come back. he told me it was very common for Catholics to lose the faith in high school and college.
Now, when he told me this, my faith was strong. Leaving the Church was the furthest thing from my mind. In fact, if you told me that is four more years I would leave the Church, I would not have believed you.
I used to think this was a well meaning yet liberal priest who planted the seed of doubt. However, I believe it is equally possible this was a good priest who was inoculating me from a journey to hell. When I decided to come home to the Catholic church, I knew I could.
I found out priest in my parish was sleepy with every woman that would hold still long enough. That was the major blow. IF the priest would not follow the rules, why should I. It was the typical formula for a teen who did not wantto be bothered by rules.
Where did you go?
I sort of hung out for awhile. I pretended to be abuddist, because it impressed girls. I studied eastern religions and philosopy and new age knuckle head stuff.
I eventually found my way to evengelical protestantism. It was the first time I really studied the bible indepth. I found answers. I later found abunch of questions.
Why did you chose where you went?
In short, I was looking to belong to something. Iwas looking for truth and hoping it would let me do whatever I wanted to do. This basically meant I would have permission to have sex with any woman who was willing and desirable. I believe the quest for truth and the Holy Spirit got me back on track. I eventually came home to the Catholic Church.
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Mirdath
Guest
Unless all four gospels are misled, I can’t; and I do not necessarily believe they were, in that respect. I don’t see Jesus as a liar; rather, I regard him as being completely sincere, at least in philosophical respects. Check my next paragraph where I lambaste Lewis for only having three choices
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paarsurrey
Guest
The divine is unknowable to human beings in the sense that as to how He came into existence. GodAllahYHWH is known to human beings by His attributes, most of which even the agnostics ascribe to something else, say to Universe.Lots, but specific to this topic the idea that the divine is unknowable to humans
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
The PromisedMessiahImamMahdi (1838-1908) is honored with Divine Converse/personal contact with GodAllahYHWH. Please access:alislam.org/books/philosophy/5q2.html
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
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Mirdath
Guest
Those attributes are not, however, necessarily divine, and others are not compatible with a merely materialist standpoint. To Universe I would ascribe neither omniscience nor omnipresence, only to a God I do not and probably cannot know.
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Lukelion
Guest
I looked into leaving as well. My search for the TRUTH led me back into the church. Reading the early church fathers cemented the deal. “To whom would we go, Lord? You have the words of eternal life.”
catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0526.html is an article by Fr. Roger J. Landry. “Answering Scandal with Personal Holiness.” Even one of the 12 who followed Jesus was a traitor.
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
First we take the inanimate world, which is being managed perfectly, I think you agree with it. If it is not being managed perfectly then kindly mention any discrepancy in it. If it is being managed perfectly, then he who manages it must be omniscience. Without perfectly knowing it, it could be mismanaged, to the peril of everybody. But that never happens!
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
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ACbishop
Guest
I left because I no longer could see the spiritual value of many practices and beliefs in the RC. I remember sitting at a stations of the cross hearing the Hail Mary being recited at every station wondering why we were praying to Mary to ask for her prayers and intersessions when it was Jesus who had suffered immensely and died for our sins. Why wasn’t our focus upon him? The sex scandal was another reason. How pathetic the RC has handled it too! I never was moved by the spirit in the RC either. And, the music stinks too! I became Anglican 3 years ago and would never look back. I love it in my church as does my family.
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cheddarsox
Guest
I left the Catholic Church over doctrinal issues. I was a cradle catholic, and hoping to become a nun. As I grew, I studied the faith more and more deeply and learned teachings that I had not been aware of simply growing up Catholic and attending Parochial school. I could not, in good conscience, remain a Catholic when I did not believe a number of things, and indeed felt that they were wrong and doing harm to the image of God.
I didn’t go anywhere. Having been raised a “good” Catholic, there simply is nowhere to go. If Catholicism doesn’t have it…then that’s it.
I always had a relationship with the Divine, so I continued that.
Eventually…I found fellowship among other Christian faiths,and among other spiritual seekers.
I did not choose the faith I am in today. I am here because it is what I know of the world and the Divine. I did not shop for a religion that suited my needs. I just practice a faith that is genuine.
I am a pantheist. I believe in What Is. There is a great deal of agnosticism built in, I don’t claim to know or understand all of What Is, just to try to be as aware of it as I can, and to acknowledge what I know in my life.
It was a long journey.
It was worth it.
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Mirdath
Guest
The inanimate world is doing okay for itself – I wouldn’t call it perfect, however. Objects in space are set up with crossing orbits, risking collisions (hence the extinction of the dinosaurs, cheesy disaster movies, and so forth); stars are constructed to eventually expand into giants and collapse into dwarfs, which will pretty well toast us in a few billion years; and so on. I look at it more that we’re just really lucky about where and when we are – so far. The universe will only become ‘perfect’ at the heat death, when entropy will rule everything. We won’t be around for that.
Management, perfect or imperfect, is therefore questionable; it seems just as likely that it all got thrown together and has been constantly sorting itself out ever since. Existence does not imply a ‘manager’; and even a perfected existence does not imply an omniscient being behind the scenes, only constant heat.
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guanophore
Guest
The Church also affirms that the Eastern Orthodox have holy orders (valid apostolic succession) and valid sacraments.
Do you not believe in the consecration? Transubstantiation?
I think it is pretty clear that many of the clergy are lacking in holiness. They are people in process too, and just because they have been called to a different type of service, they still need support, guidance, prayer, and confession. Most of them don’t get very much of that from the laity, which isolates them, and compounds sanctity. When is the last time you spent time with your pastor? I could not even name a date for you.
I am curious about your statement that the hierarchy has gotten bogged down…what do you mean by that?
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drifting_away
Guest
Bureauocracy becomes it’s own, self perpetuating entity, whose main purpose is to keep it’s self in existance, often at the expense of common sense or truth. I think this is what was present in the time of Jesus amongst the Jewish leadership. Their main purpose in life was keeping their own places of honor and importance, and they would compromise the truth and make unholy alliances in order to do so, thus compromising the integrity of their mission.
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
You are right, humans cannot know about GodAllahYHWH for sure from their known senses, at the best they could get at is ‘there should be God’, it is only through revelation from Him that one becomes sure “He Is”.This is what is written in the scriptures:Quran 6:104
Eyes cannot reach Him but He reaches the eyes. And He is the Incomprehensible, the All-Aware.
Unquote
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
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biblebeliver
Guest
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. (Matthew 7:13)
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)
Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall. (Matthew 7:24-27)
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. (John 10:27)
And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. They will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers. (John 10:4-5)
blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch. (Matthew 15:14).
Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Luke 13:24
John 14:6, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
John 6:40, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day
Acts 26:18, “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
1st Corinthians 3:11, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
Galatians 3:26, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)
Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall. (Matthew 7:24-27)
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 9)
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. (John 10:27)
And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. They will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers. (John 10:4-5)
blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch. (Matthew 15:14).
Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Luke 13:24
John 14:6, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
John 6:40, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day
Acts 26:18, “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
1st Corinthians 3:11, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
Galatians 3:26, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
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Tonks40
Guest
Um, hat doesn’t answer the OP’s question…
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Techno2000
Guest
I think he is just preaching to the choir around here.Um, hat doesn’t answer the OP’s question…
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guanophore
Guest
Perhaps this is one of those areas where the Bible contradicts the Quran?
Rom 1:18-23
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. "
A person who has been educated in Islam knows well that no peace will be found in it for Christians and Jews. a faithful Muslim is called to eradicate or subjucate these populations. We know that the “gap” will eventually be bridged with the sword (or the bomb).
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ronnok20
Guest
At one time in history, the RC was God’s church, true and justified, but I don’t think that it has been for many many years. That is why I left. I just cannot see God endorsing it.
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