Why didn't God make us perfect in the first place?

[BobCatholic]

OK, maybe not perfect like God is, his perfection is unique, but what about as perfect as a creature can be?

Why are we not created perfect so we can be able to please God?

I can think of one objection: because we would become egotistical or ego maniacal thinking we don’t need God to be perfect - but guess what? If we were perfect, we’d know we needed God to be perfect!

 

[FightingFat]

OK, maybe not perfect like God is, his perfection is unique, but what about as perfect as a creature can be?

Why are we not created perfect so we can be able to please God?

I can think of one objection: because we would become egotistical or ego maniacal thinking we don’t need God to be perfect - but guess what? If we were perfect, we’d know we needed God to be perfect!

Well, that’s exactly what did happen Bob! God created us perfect, for union with Him. That’s why Lucifer got so upset and Fell. We then decided we wanted to be more–we wanted to know what good and evil are for ourselves. We wanted to be able to decide what is good and what is not, not through our intuitive understanding of natural moral law- that law which is written on all mens hearts, but like God. God warned us that if we ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil we would die…And so we did, we reached out for God and became less that we were, we Fell into the sin of pride and our means of perfect (that is the free gift of grace) was lost to us. God had to find another method of giving us grace, the grace we need to obtain heaven and communion with Him…He was so true to His covenant that He became man and united His divinity with our humanity, lifting us up to be capable of Heaven once again.

Any questions?

 

[Crumpy]

This is a very deep philosophical question, parallel to the question, is there anything God can’t do?

FF gave you an answer to that, an answer that sounds like the Catechism, if it actually isn’t.

Creating us as beings with free will is as close to being God-like as we can probably get. Who is to say this is not perfection?

Living up to that is a whole other story.

A commentary I read recently pointed out that specifically God created Adam and Eve with a royal character, indicated by the fact that Adam had “dominion” over creation. And, he created them with a priestly character, indicated by the wording of how Adam was supposed to tend the garden; the word for tending is the same Hebrew word that is used later in Ex and Lv to describe what the Levitical priests do in the Temple.

So, they were sinless, regal, and priestly – and then they sinned anyway.

FF said that they committed the sin of pride. Well, I just don’t know. I heard this explained that they abdicated the dominion, by yielding to the temptation of the serpent, a creature.

While they already were created in the image and likeness of God, the serpent ignored that and tempted them that they could become “like gods” (which they already were!). So, there was some deception in the temptation of Eve. Adam was not deceived, he just sinned, so his sin was greater than Eve’s, and partially he did not stop Eve, so that guilt was on him too.

(I just read last evening that perhaps St. Paul didn’t want women to teach in the synagogue, because Eve had been deceived–as a possible explanation of that.)

So, when I get into it, they were created “like” perfect. If they could not sin, they would not have free will, and they would be like animals.

 

[BobCatholic]

Well, that’s exactly what did happen Bob! God created us perfect, for union with Him. That’s why Lucifer got so upset and Fell. We then decided we wanted to be more–we wanted to know what good and evil are for ourselves.

If we had those imperfections of being greedy and prideful and disobedience, then we were not perfect in the first place, so my question still stands unanswered.

Creating us as beings with free will is as close to being God-like as we can probably get. Who is to say this is not perfection?

If we were not created perfect, the imperfections we have subtract free will from us. So we truly don’t have complete free will.

God made the angels perfect. They please him.
Why not us?

 

[Alindawyl]

God made the angels perfect. They please him.
Why not us?

Angels are obviously not perfect because a third of them fell from grace. And that was despite having a much greater intellect than us, as well as much greater knowledge of God and the consequence of their choice.

Don’t think of creation in terms of perfection. Good is what God creates. Everything from angels to humans to creatures with no immortal soul to inanimate objects. The trick is that any creature with free will has the ability to reject that goodness and turn the good that they are into evil. Some of the angels chose to do that. Humans choose to do that as well to a greater or lesser extent.

God wants us to choose good, but he can’t force us to do so without depriving us of free will and making us nothing more than instinctual creatures. Depriving us of free will would imply also depriving us of an immortal soul, and therefore any possibility of heaven.

 

[Wired]

Having free will is the ability to choose whether we will do what we know is good or to choose not to. Free will isn’t imperfection-it’s freedom. God did make us perfect and in His own image. However, Adam and Eve wanted more than they were given. The devil essentially convinced them that they could be as great as God. He really just wanted Adam and Eve to worship him instead of God. That’s all the devil has wanted since he first refused to praise and worship God. The devil wants to BE God. He tempts us by telling us we can be God, too, but what he really wants is to turn us away from God and toward himself. He tried the same thing with Jesus in the desert. Even Jesus was tempted, He just didn’t sin. Does that make Him less than perfect? Of course not. Perfection is not sinning, but it is not the inability to sin. We can be perfectly obedient if we want to be. As much as God wants us to love Him and do His will, He will not force us to. He truly wants us to be perfect as He is. That is indeed how He created us…

 

[carinapir]

I’ve always found it interesting that Adam and Eve were obedient and pleasing to God until they chose to “know” both good and evil. They had free will but they were oblivious to evil. Choosing to know evil corrupted them as if they did not have the capacity to know evil and conquer it as God does. Their perfection had been in being unaware of evil not in being above evil.

Now we must struggle with our knowledge of evil and learn to choose good instead. A harder road but I wouldn’t be surprised it God knew that we would choose it all along.

These are just my thoughts.

 

[buffalo]

Adam and Eve were created with preternatural gifts of bodily immortality, freedom from pain and sickness, freedom from irregular desires.

 

[BobCatholic]

Angels are obviously not perfect because a third of them fell from grace.

The other 2/3’s who did not fall are perfect,and God is pleased with them.

God wants us to choose good, but he can’t force us to do so without depriving us of free will and making us nothing more than instinctual creatures. Depriving us of free will would imply also depriving us of an immortal soul, and therefore any possibility of heaven.

As long as we are imperfect, we are deprived of free will to some extent. Remember, a man with broken legs cannot freely choose to run a marathon. A deaf man cannot freely listen to music.

Adam and Eve were created with preternatural gifts of bodily immortality, freedom from pain and sickness, freedom from irregular desires.

They were still imperfect. Either Adam & Eve were stupid for falling for the devil’s lies, or were too naive for doing so, or were prideful. They were definitely disobedient. Some may even say they had the imperfection of fear (some say the serpent was HUGE and threatening).

Doesn’t really matter. They were imperfect. And we’re in the mess we are now.

 

[Alindawyl]

The other 2/3’s who did not fall are perfect,and God is pleased with them.

Were those 2/3 of the angels perfect at their creation while the other 1/3 were imperfect at their creation? Or did God make all the angels with the ability to choose perfection if they so desired, and some exercised their free will to choose imperfection?

The Church teaches the second, not the first.

As long as we are imperfect, we are deprived of free will to some extent. Remember, a man with broken legs cannot freely choose to run a marathon. A deaf man cannot freely listen to music.

You are making the same mistake many make when talking about omnipotence. God being all powerful means he can do all things which are possible. Things which are not possible are logical contraditions and cannot exist, such as square circles or rocks so heavy they cannot be lifted by an all-powerful being.

A deaf man hearing is a logical contradiction, as is a man without functional legs running. Free will doesn’t even enter into the picture. The man with broken legs can still enter a marathon. The deaf man can still turn on an iPod. Just because a desired result is not possible (winning a marathon or hearing a song) doesn’t mean free will is suddenly lacking.

They were still imperfect. Either Adam & Eve were stupid for falling for the devil’s lies, or were too naive for doing so, or were prideful. They were definitely disobedient. Some may even say they had the imperfection of fear (some say the serpent was HUGE and threatening).

Doesn’t really matter. They were imperfect. And we’re in the mess we are now.

Which is why it isn’t proper to look upon God’s creation as perfect by itself but simply good. Only God is naturally perfect. Everything else must work at it with the help of God. If we choose to reject God, then we make ourselves imperfect. If we choose to unite ourselves to God, then we become perfect through him. It’s a co-operative effort, just like it was with the angels. They had a one time decision while we have a much lengthier process, but the general concept is the same.

Everything God creates is good, and all immortal souls have the ability to choose perfection through the exercise of their free will. But as history and Scripture indicate, not all will choose perfection.

 

[buffalo]

The other 2/3’s who did not fall are perfect,and God is pleased with them.

As long as we are imperfect, we are deprived of free will to some extent. Remember, a man with broken legs cannot freely choose to run a marathon. A deaf man cannot freely listen to music.

They were still imperfect. Either Adam & Eve were stupid for falling for the devil’s lies, or were too naive for doing so, or were prideful. They were definitely disobedient. Some may even say they had the imperfection of fear (some say the serpent was HUGE and threatening).

Doesn’t really matter. They were imperfect. And we’re in the mess we are now.

Yes - I used the word perfect in a more subtle sense. Only God is perfect.

 

[BobCatholic]

Were those 2/3 of the angels perfect at their creation while the other 1/3 were imperfect at their creation? Or did God make all the angels with the ability to choose perfection if they so desired, and some exercised their free will to choose imperfection?

I think the 2/3 were perfect while the 1/3 were imperfect. The 2/3 chose correctly (perfectly).

You are making the same mistake many make when talking about omnipotence. God being all powerful means he can do all things which are possible. Things which are not possible are logical contraditions and cannot exist, such as square circles or rocks so heavy they cannot be lifted by an all-powerful being.

A deaf man hearing is a logical contradiction, as is a man without functional legs running. Free will doesn’t even enter into the picture. The man with broken legs can still enter a marathon. The deaf man can still turn on an iPod. Just because a desired result is not possible (winning a marathon or hearing a song) doesn’t mean free will is suddenly lacking.

Unfortunately, this does not address what I’m talking about.

A deaf man cannot hear. He cannot choose to listen to music, for example, so his free will has been limited. A blind man cannot choose to see colors. A man in a wheelchair cannot choose to run a marathon. Those imperfections listed, limit their free will.

The same with the imperfection of concupiscence. It limits our free will, so how can we truly have free will if it is limited? That’s like saying “You have freedom of speech, but God has created you a mute.”

Which is why it isn’t proper to look upon God’s creation as perfect by itself but simply good.

I’m not saying God’s creation is perfect. I’m asking why God did not make us perfect so we could please him.

It’s a co-operative effort, just like it was with the angels. They had a one time decision while we have a much lengthier process, but the general concept is the same.

The angels only had to choose once, we have to choose all the time. The angels are lucky and are loved more by God.

But as history and Scripture indicate, not all will choose perfection.

If we were created perfect in the first place, we could choose perfection and it would be with the help of God.

But God didn’t create us perfect. I don’t know why. It is like He doesn’t love us enough to make it easier to be with him. Too much scourging, not enough encouraging.

I’ve been struggling with this question for years now and have not been able to understand. I wish I could be in the Garden of Eden. I promise I would not touch that forbidden fruit!

 

[carinapir]

If we were created perfect in the first place, we could choose perfection and it would be with the help of God.

But God didn’t create us perfect. I don’t know why. It is like He doesn’t love us enough to make it easier to be with him. Too much scourging, not enough encouraging.

I’ve been struggling with this question for years now and have not been able to understand. I wish I could be in the Garden of Eden. I promise I would not touch that forbidden fruit!

I agree with your thinking which is why I tend to thing that all of this (our fall, our struggle) is on purpose. I suppose some people will call this blasphemous, but He had to have known that some angels and Adam and Eve would fall because they were not perfect like Him.

Foreknowledge does not mean predestination, I agree. I just think that God saw our fall AND our redemption and so allowed this world to come to pass. Only He knows the value of us existing in this way and what we will learn from it. All we can do is trust that He knows what He is doing.

So to get to what I see as the root of your question, yes, it is not entirely our fault that we fell from grace. Either God allowed it or it is actually a part of His plan. However, many people will have a problem with placing any kind of responsibility at God’s feet, which is what you are trying to do. I don’t see the conflict. God does as He pleases and it can be good even if we don’t understand how it is good.

 

[TheRiver]

Well, that’s exactly what did happen Bob! God created us perfect, for union with Him. That’s why Lucifer got so upset and Fell. We then decided we wanted to be more–we wanted to know what good and evil are for ourselves. We wanted to be able to decide what is good and what is not, not through our intuitive understanding of natural moral law- that law which is written on all mens hearts, but like God. God warned us that if we ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil we would die…And so we did, we reached out for God and became less that we were, we Fell into the sin of pride and our means of perfect (that is the free gift of grace) was lost to us. God had to find another method of giving us grace, the grace we need to obtain heaven and communion with Him…He was so true to His covenant that He became man and united His divinity with our humanity, lifting us up to be capable of Heaven once again.

Any questions?

If we were “perfect” we wouldn’t have fallen. Since theologically we would be perfect in heaven, then going by your logic we could fall again, but we can’t. Therefore we could never have been perfect in the place.

It’s all fairy-tales, contradictions galore.

 

[BobCatholic]

I just think that God saw our fall AND our redemption and so allowed this world to come to pass. Only He knows the value of us existing in this way and what we will learn from it. All we can do is trust that He knows what He is doing.

Well, God’s will is perfect, but it has imperfect consequences (for example: the fact I exist)

So to get to what I see as the root of your question, yes, it is not entirely our fault that we fell from grace. Either God allowed it or it is actually a part of His plan. However, many people will have a problem with placing any kind of responsibility at God’s feet, which is what you are trying to do. I don’t see the conflict. God does as He pleases and it can be good even if we don’t understand how it is good.

If I were to create an imperfect machine, car, etc., it will fail - just a matter of time. Should the machine then be punished for failing? I don’t think so. And if the machine was meant to last a certain amount of time and it did, then I cannot be punished or held responsible for its failure after its estimated life. So I’m not trying to put the blame on God here, if I’m supposed to fail then WHY should I be punished?

I’m trying to figure out how it is just to 1) make sure someone can fail - because they’re not perfect then 2) punish them for failing and 3) Punish future generations for this failure It looks like entrapment to me - I hope I’m not blaspheming here.

I’m also trying to figure out how we have free will if it is so severely limited due to our imperfections.

I’m also wondering if there is a divine lemon law for my life, I’d like to turn it in for a better one.

I remember a quote “Oh Happy fault that gained us so great a redeemer” - I agree, Christ is a great savior!

But there’s more than one way to save someone. One can save by:

1. yanking someone out of a pit of mud that the victim fell into and
2. stopping someone from falling into the pit of mud in the first place.

I think 2) is better than 1) and Christ would be a better redeemer if he had done 2) instead of 1) as he did. And if God had made us perfect in the first place, it would be a clear 2) and Christ’s redeemership is even better.

I hate being imperfect, I feel like I can never please God, no matter what I do. I keep failing and getting punished for it with all the suffering I’m going through. I have the scourging but not the encouraging from God.

 

[fultonfish]

He did make us perfect, but having free will and having listened to Satan, we screwed up and threw it all away.

But then God sent His Only Son to give us a second chance.

 

[BobCatholic]

He did make us perfect, but having free will and having listened to Satan, we screwed up and threw it all away.

If we were created perfect, we would never have listened to satan. We’d still be in the Garden of Eden.

 

[carinapir]

But there’s more than one way to save someone. One can save by:

1. yanking someone out of a pit of mud that the victim fell into and
2. stopping someone from falling into the pit of mud in the first place.

I think 2) is better than 1) and Christ would be a better redeemer if he had done 2) instead of 1) as he did. And if God had made us perfect in the first place, it would be a clear 2) and Christ’s redeemership is even better.

How do we know that we will not learn more spiritually from having gone through #1? Isn’t it better to struggle and consciously accept God’s plan for us than to simply exist oblivious to anything else?

How are you being punished? Is this existence a punishment or are you referring to punishment after death?

 

[BobCatholic]

How do we know that we will not learn more spiritually from having gone through #1? Isn’t it better to struggle and consciously accept God’s plan for us than to simply exist oblivious to anything else?

If we were perfect, we wouldn’t need to learn - we’d already know it, and it would be all glory to God.

How are you being punished? Is this existence a punishment or are you referring to punishment after death?

Life’s sufferings. Here on earth.

 

[TheRiver]

What does “perfect” mean? I’m inclined to think in this context, perfection means the ability and the choice of making the right decision when well aware of God’s presence and having an intimate knowledge of him as well as what’s wrong.

Perfect for having made the right decision when you still had the choice to make the wrong decision, perfect for not sinning amidst what free-will offers. Perfection in many other things such as preternatural gifts.

BobCatholic, you are right:

If we were perfect, we wouldn’t need to learn - we’d already know it, and it would be all glory to God.

We’d know it, and we still have the ability to make the wrong decision, so I disagree with your conclusion.