Why didn't God make us perfect in the first place?

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We’d know it, and we still have the ability to make the wrong decision, so I disagree with your conclusion.
If one makes the wrong decision, it is based on an imperfection (like greed, envy, lust, etc.) - thus if one is perfect, they cannot make the wrong decision.

Remember, God is perfect and he can’t make wrong decisions - that would contradict what perfect means.

A perfect person who can make wrong decisions is like an adulterer who is faithful to his wife. It is a logical contradiction.
 
If one makes the wrong decision, it is based on an imperfection (like greed, envy, lust, etc.) - thus if one is perfect, they cannot make the wrong decision.

Remember, God is perfect and he can’t make wrong decisions - that would contradict what perfect means.

A perfect person who can make wrong decisions is like an adulterer who is faithful to his wife. It is a logical contradiction.
Those are all choices, Mary was perfect, she still had the choice, so that pretty much refutes your claims.

Yes if one makes the wrong decision it is based ultimately on a vice, however we are tempted by it as Jesus was, it is the decision that matters and ultimately concludes our perfection or not. Jesus was heavily tempted, he remained perfect because of his decisions.

If one is perfect, they CAN make the wrong decision however, Jesus had the choice to do that, which is ultimately what makes him great doesn’t it? He had the choice to do what he wished, but ultimately did The Father’s will. This is basic. It’s pretty much illustrated across the Bible.

Cheers
 
Those are all choices, Mary was perfect, she still had the choice, so that pretty much refutes your claims.
Nope.

She didn’t make any wrong decisions. She always did what was right, she was perfect as a creature could be. She pleased God.

And here’s the fun part: Jesus saved her IN ADVANCE (Immaculate Conception) - why couldn’t he do that to the rest of us?
If one is perfect, they CAN make the wrong decision however, Jesus had the choice to do that, which is ultimately what makes him great doesn’t it? He had the choice to do what he wished, but ultimately did The Father’s will. This is basic. It’s pretty much illustrated across the Bible.
And Jesus too, is perfect, and he did nothing wrong. He pleased God.

Is it wrong for me to want so much to please God that I’m upset at my failure to do so?
 
God didn’t create anything perfect, but everything He created journeys to perfection. The only being who is perfect without journeying to perfection is God, because He is perfection itself. It is not a rule of exception but a rule of essense: Perfection cannot journey to become itself.
 
Nope.

She didn’t make any wrong decisions. She always did what was right, she was perfect as a creature could be. She pleased God.

And here’s the fun part: Jesus saved her IN ADVANCE (Immaculate Conception) - why couldn’t he do that to the rest of us?

And Jesus too, is perfect, and he did nothing wrong. He pleased God.

Is it wrong for me to want so much to please God that I’m upset at my failure to do so?
I agree with everything you said there, strangely enough it’s exactly what I said :rolleyes:
My point was they still had the CHOICE to make the wrong decision, if you don’t believe me consult an apologist here, that’s what makes Jesus so great! He didn’t just come down to Earth and do everything correct automatically, he was fully human and had to study like us, think like us, was tempted like us and COULD have made the wrong decision, perfection is an on-going thing, you are perfect as long as your actions are perfect, and Jesus and Mary exemplified that.

This is pretty basic theology mate.
 
If we were perfect, we wouldn’t need to learn - we’d already know it, and it would be all glory to God.

Life’s sufferings. Here on earth.
Right, and I say that God didn’t want to make us perfect in the way that you are describing and so He did not.

Angels, who apparently have a much greater understanding of God, have also fallen and it makes no sense whatsoever that they would choose Hell over His Presence. There is more going on here than we understand.
 
A deaf man cannot hear. He cannot choose to listen to music, for example, so his free will has been limited. A blind man cannot choose to see colors. A man in a wheelchair cannot choose to run a marathon. Those imperfections listed, limit their free will.

The same with the imperfection of concupiscence. It limits our free will, so how can we truly have free will if it is limited? That’s like saying “You have freedom of speech, but God has created you a mute.”
Free will does not mean being able to do everything which can be imagined or anything which some other person can do. It means being able to do all that is within our power to do. If we can’t do it, free will doesn’t enter into the picture.

I have a horrible singing voice. My free will is not limited because I can’t win a singing competition. I have scoliosis. My free will is not limited because I can’t stand straight. I am male. My free will is not limited because I can’t give birth.

God never expects more of us than we’re able to give. If you ever feel inadequate in the face of adversity, that’s the devil talking and trying to feed your insecurities.
The angels only had to choose once, we have to choose all the time. The angels are lucky and are loved more by God.
At least one person has written via private revelation that angels, although incapable of envy, are in awe of us for what we do and create and are honored to serve as our protectors. Angels don’t consider themselves to be loved more by God.

You are free to disagree as it’s only private revelation, but it doesn’t seem incorrect.
If we were created perfect in the first place, we could choose perfection and it would be with the help of God…
Most of the angels chose perfection and so can we, if we so desire. It’s takes a lifetime for us, and not everyone will end up making the good choice. But those who do will end up perfect despite our present imperfection.

The angels who chose in favor of God are perfect now despite not being perfect when they were first created. We will be too once we’re in heaven.

Your obsession with perfection is likely the biggest factor in why you consider yourself to be such a failure and fret over your faults so much. Even with all of these perceived faults and imperfections, God still loves each and every one of us. You included. Trust in God, not in yourself, and all will turn out for the good.
 
I’ve been struggling with this question for years now and have not been able to understand. I wish I could be in the Garden of Eden. I promise I would not touch that forbidden fruit!
Not knowing what it was, how can you be sure you wouldn’t?

I realize this may seem like quibbling, but if we were perfect, we would be God. We are not God, therefore we are necessarily imperfect. Angels are not perfect. Not even the angels in heaven. They are different from us, though, in that their intellects are united with their wills. They do not “want to do this, but instead do that”. Their intellects are and were so powerful, they knew the totality of the consequences of their ancient choice: to worship God or to worship themselves, and made the choice. Fallen angels would not emerge from hell even if given a thousand chances to do it.

We do something similar, but in an even more “imperfect” way. At a point (and theologians differ on when that point might be) we achieve a clarity something similar to what the angels do, and we choose ourselves or we choose God. Nobody goes to hell by mistake. As St. Therese of Lisieux (and others) have said, everybody in hell is a volunteer.

God allowed us to choose Him or ourselves. It is the same choice he gave the angels. Because our intellects and wills are far weaker than theirs, we can “change our minds” and often desire to do that. Angels have no ability to do it because they have no desire to do it.

I don’t know that the OP is really talking about “perfection” so much as a lack of free will. God could have created us without free wills. But He didn’t. What we would be if we did not have free wills, we don’t know. But we would not be human beings. Certainly, we could not “love” as we know that to be, because “loving” requires choice, and choice requires free will. We don’t really know why God created us so that we could love freely or not love at all. We only know that He did.
 
God didn’t create anything perfect, but everything He created journeys to perfection. The only being who is perfect without journeying to perfection is God, because He is perfection itself. It is not a rule of exception but a rule of essense: Perfection cannot journey to become itself.
Does this mean the good angels are still journeying to perfection? I thought they were already perfected (as much as a created being can be perfect) - and when we make it to heaven, are we going to continue to journey to perfection or will we already be perfected?
God never expects more of us than we’re able to give.
Sometimes I think he expects too much with all the suffering I’ve endured.
If you ever feel inadequate in the face of adversity, that’s the devil talking and trying to feed your insecurities.
So when will God counter this by giving me encouragement?
Your obsession with perfection is likely the biggest factor in why you consider yourself to be such a failure and fret over your faults so much. Even with all of these perceived faults and imperfections, God still loves each and every one of us. You included. Trust in God, not in yourself, and all will turn out for the good.
My obsession of perfection is because I’ve suffered a lot because of my imperfections. If I didn’t have them I could please God better, and perhaps he would not be dumping so many sufferings on me.

And God loves the devil too, but I don’t want to join him! I want to be with God and please God but my failures keep me from pleasing God.
 
I want to be with God and please God but my failures keep me from pleasing God.
How do you know you don’t?

I remember, at my mother’s funeral Mass, the priest said one thing only, by way of a “eulogy”. He said “She was holy in ways she did not expect were holy.” In discussing this with him afterward, he named for me a number of ways she was holy; things I had not previously thought about; ordinary things; everyday things.

We don’t fully know when we are pleasing God and when we are offending Him, though we do at times, with precision, know we are offending. Jesus said we should approach our salvation with “fear and trembling”. Yet He also said His yoke is light.

We aren’t perfect. We aren’t ever going to be perfect. Jesus said even the just man falls seven times a day. What God wants is our constant effort. Perhaps most of all He wants us to pray. We can’t be perfect on our own. We can’t even be better on our own. We must pray to be better. We have to ask. Jesus remarked on the efficacy of this. He asked what father would, if his son asked for a fish, hand him a snake. He asked, what father would, if his son asked for bread, hand him a stone.

We tend to pride; centering our universes in ourselves. We can even do this in our attempts to be holy. God wants us to center on Him; to recognize and accept our imperfection, yet to seek the only perfection that exists; Him. We can only achieve “perfection” in the sense of being united with its only source.
 
So when will God counter this by giving me encouragement?
Perhaps right now with the words of some of the posters here. Perhaps at different times in the past when you’ve received encouragement from others to persevere and not give in to doubt.

One of the drawbacks of having free will is we are always able to doubt ourselves and our worth. One of the benefits of having free will is we are always able to trust in God no matter how dark it seems.

God loves us so much that he allows us to freely choose our own fate. Do we persevere with him despite our faults, or do we focus on our faults so much that we lose sight of Jesus and his love for us?
My obsession of perfection is because I’ve suffered a lot because of my imperfections. If I didn’t have them I could please God better, and perhaps he would not be dumping so many sufferings on me.
Jesus instructed us to pick up our own crosses and follow him. That means we should expect to suffer while living through this life. We suffer more or less at different points in life. The saints usually suffered much more than any of us will and they still managed to make it. We can too. We’re aiming for an eternal reward, not a temporal one. The sufferings of this world are inconsequential when compared to the rest of eternity.

I’ve also suffered tremendously because of my imperfections, or at least thought I had. In my case, almost all of it was self-inflicted suffering. Once I took my eyes off myself and used them to look more at others than at me, I saw how much worse others had it and how good things really were. What I thought was hardship and pain was all too often blown out of proportion in my mind. One of the tricks the enemy uses to encourage us to doubt ourselves.

Not that that necessarily helps when you’re stuck in the middle of it, but the choice on how to face that hardship is always there.
And God loves the devil too, but I don’t want to join him! I want to be with God and please God but my failures keep me from pleasing God.
Your failures don’t keep you from pleasing God. Staying true to God despite your failures is pleasing to him. I’ve struggled with sins so bad that you probably couldn’t imagine them, and betrayed more than one person who thought I was a friend. But God still loves me and was willing to accept me back once I repented. In fact, he didn’t really accept me back because he had never rejected me in the first place. His love for us is constant regardless of our actions. The rejection was all on my end, in my own mind.

It’s not the suffering we cause or experience that defines us, but how we react to it. Do we wallow in sorrow and imperfection and give up? Or do we keep our faith in Jesus and persevere to the end?

I intend to persevere, and I know you can too if you make that choice. It won’t always be easy, but with eternity at stake, surrender to evil is not an option. No matter how many times we get knocked down in the process, no matter how dark it seems, we have to remain true. God does not give up on us, so the least we can do is not give up on him.

And once we are in heaven, truly united with Jesus and experiencing the beatific vision, then we will finally have achieved perfection and be at peace.
 
Your failures don’t keep you from pleasing God.
That’s not true.
Jesus rebuked the tree that produced no fruit and it wilted. There’s the parable of the servants, what about the third servant who buried the talent out of fear of offending the master by failing? What if there was a 4th servant who lost his talent in trading? Imagine how badly he would have been treated! There are other times where people have failed and God was angry at their failures.
It’s not the suffering we cause or experience that defines us, but how we react to it. Do we wallow in sorrow and imperfection and give up? Or do we keep our faith in Jesus and persevere to the end?
What if I don’t have the strength because it wasn’t given to me? I’m so screwed then.
I truly am the weakest link. And I’m afraid of being told “Goodbye” by the Lord.
How do you know you don’t?
I’ve tried to do apostolate over and over and failed each time. I just can’t please God.
We don’t fully know when we are pleasing God and when we are offending Him,
And that’s another problem: What if I offended him and I don’t know it? Or I forgot? I hate my forgetfulness, I wanted to confess all my sins and have them all lifted. But I keep forgetting. I’ve tried writing them down and confessed those I was able to, but I feel like the guy who has a hidden disease. And there are temporal punishments for sins - so that’s why I’m being punished temporally - because I didn’t have those sins forgiven.

My disease is failure. I just can’t do anything right.
 
OK, maybe not perfect like God is, his perfection is unique, but what about as perfect as a creature can be?

Why are we not created perfect so we can be able to please God?

I can think of one objection: because we would become egotistical or ego maniacal thinking we don’t need God to be perfect - but guess what? If we were perfect, we’d know we needed God to be perfect!
Adam and Eve were perfect human beings before the fall. They were in perfect communion with God and with Nature. Adam and Eve sinned and lost that perfection when they disobeyed God.

If God made us incapable of sinning, then we would have also been unable to freely choose to love Him. In other words, we would have been made incapable of real love, because love is only real if it is freely given.

Peace,
Robert
 
Adam and Eve were perfect human beings before the fall. They were in perfect communion with God and with Nature. Adam and Eve sinned and lost that perfection when they disobeyed God.
The fact that chose to disobey God means they had the imperfection of disobedience, and thus they were never perfect in the first place. Whatever the reason for the disobedience (pride? Stupidity? Fear?) doesn’t matter - those are imperfections too.
If God made us incapable of sinning, then we would have also been unable to freely choose to love Him. In other words, we would have been made incapable of real love, because love is only real if it is freely given.
Using this reasoning, angels and the saints in heaven are incapable of real love of God.

I disagree. They do. And it is because God perfected them and they cannot sin anymore. That’s why they’re perfect.
 
OK, maybe not perfect like God is, his perfection is unique, but what about as perfect as a creature can be?

Why are we not created perfect so we can be able to please God?

I can think of one objection: because we would become egotistical or ego maniacal thinking we don’t need God to be perfect - but guess what? If we were perfect, we’d know we needed God to be perfect!

Perhaps because gradual growth to maturity is a law of other living things that have bodies. To be created perfect would be to have one’s full growth given all at once and from the beginning of one’s existence; as if an adult human were to live in the womb, and not have to develop the capabilities proper to it. Coming-to-be, maturation, passing-away, are the law of the universe; take them away, and history vanishes. ISTM we would be stuck in a sort of perpetual present - something like eternity, that wasn’t :eek: Time, space, growth, the life of man on earth may be so intimately related as to be inextricable: so that for us to be perfect from the very beginnings of our lives woiuld require creation to be drastically different; & if it were, man might be as impossible as the unicorn.​

We** can** please God: He has made & makes it possible; & sin is no object to Him - only to us.

I suspect that if we were perfect in the way you suggest, this would mean we would not appreciate Christ; & if all things have been created by and for Him, this might mean the universe was not as Christ-centred as it is “meant” to be. ***If ***He is the goal and reason of all creation, & if the Will of the Father is that Christ be known & glorified as Lord of all creation, that would be a very bad thing indeed. The Glorification of Christ is the sufficient reason for creation

Just speculation, as usual 🙂
 

Perhaps because gradual growth to maturity is a law of other living things that have bodies. To be created perfect would be to have one’s full growth given all at once and from the beginning of one’s existence; as if an adult human were to live in the womb, and not have to develop the capabilities proper to it. Coming-to-be, maturation, passing-away, are the law of the universe; take them away, and history vanishes. ISTM we would be stuck in a sort of perpetual present - something like eternity, that wasn’t :eek: Time, space, growth, the life of man on earth may be so intimately related as to be inextricable: so that for us to be perfect from the very beginnings of our lives woiuld require creation to be drastically different; & if it were, man might be as impossible as the unicorn.​

However, once we’re in heaven we ARE perfect (as perfect as creation possibly can be) - and growth stops. Same thing with the angels.

So heaven breaks this law you speak of, and thus heaven cannot exist, if this law is true.
I suspect that if we were perfect in the way you suggest, this would mean we would not appreciate Christ;
I doubt that. If one is perfect, they would appreciate Christ perfectly. In addition, Christ would be a better redeemer than he is now.

Think about it. Which is better: 1) You fall into a mud puddle and someone rescues you from it, or 2) Someone prevents you from falling into the mud puddle in the first place.
  1. is better than 1) in my opinion - and that’s why I’m asking why that didn’t happen to us. I am more thankful that I didn’t fall than when I fall and am rescued - I glorify God for both for only God can do both.
 
That’s not true.
Jesus rebuked the tree that produced no fruit and it wilted. There’s the parable of the servants, what about the third servant who buried the talent out of fear of offending the master by failing? What if there was a 4th servant who lost his talent in trading? Imagine how badly he would have been treated! There are other times where people have failed and God was angry at their failures.
And yet when Peter denied Jesus three times, he was forgiven. A man constantly chastised by Jesus for impetuousness and not thinking things through was the man chosen by Jesus to be the first leader of his Church.

Despite all his faults, Peter was true when it counted and willingly went to a martyr’s death for our Lord. It’s how we are at the end that matters, not how we are at any point along the journey. Salvation is the result of a process of sanctification, of being slowly made more holy. It doesn’t happen all at once.

Do we judge Saint Peter by what he did the night of the Crucifixion, or at the Transfiguration, or at any other time he failed? No, of course not.

Don’t look at examples of the judgement of God so much that you lose sight of the fact that we also have many examples of the mercy of God. The parable of the talents wasn’t to show that God is wrath and judgement. It was a call to not be miserly by hoarding all the gifts which God has given to us. There would not be a fourth servant in the parable who lost his talents trading and was chastized, because such a servant would have at least been trying to do the master’s work rather than being fearful of possible failure.

We do not fail our master by trying and falling short. We fail our master when we stop trying.
What if I don’t have the strength because it wasn’t given to me? I’m so screwed then.
I truly am the weakest link. And I’m afraid of being told “Goodbye” by the Lord.
You have the strength even if you don’t realize it. That strength is likely hidden behind the whispered lies of the enemy about how worthless you are. He lies because he is the one who is worthless. He rejected God and is alone because of it, constantly trying to drag down as many others as possible as a way of affirming his erroneous decision. You are not screwed unless you also reject God, because God always gives us what we need. It’s not always what we want, and in fact it’s usually not what we want. But each and every one of us has what is takes to remain true if we really want to.

Jesus never turns his back on us and says “Goodbye”. That’s another lie of the enemy. Satan pretends God rejected him rather than him being the one who rejected God. His ego won’t let him admit it was all his fault. Those who end up in hell do so not because they were sent there by God, but because they sent themselves there. God is always there for us, no matter how dark it seems.
And that’s another problem: What if I offended him and I don’t know it? Or I forgot? I hate my forgetfulness, I wanted to confess all my sins and have them all lifted. But I keep forgetting. I’ve tried writing them down and confessed those I was able to, but I feel like the guy who has a hidden disease. And there are temporal punishments for sins - so that’s why I’m being punished temporally - because I didn’t have those sins forgiven.
All sin offends God. We offend him on a regular basis. But God knows that’s going to happen, which is why he makes sacramental confession available. He knows we will sin and is ready to forgive us anyway if we are repentant. Sacramental confession even grants forgiveness for sins we forget to mention. How cool is that?

God just asks that we mention them the next time we go to confession after remembering. He’s already forgiven them, but he wants us to forgive ourselves as well.

I’ve forgotten sins before, and would hazard a guess that everyone has at least once. Don’t worry about it. Since God has forgiven and put it behind him, we should as well rather than fretting and worrying. I know how tough it can be to do that. I struggle with this on a regular basis. Being scrupulous is a trial and not the least bit enjoyable.

The temporal punishment for sin applies to all sins, by the way. Even sins which have been forgiven. None of us are free of that even if our sins are only venial. We’re going to be subject to that temporal punishment either in this world or purgatory. But it’s not all bad suffering now and paying as much of the temporal punishment as possible before our death. The advantage is less time in purgatory. The sooner we can enter heaven, the better.

God helps us with that by providing indulgences through his Church. Indulgences are even attached to things which we should be doing anyway for our own spiritual health and the health of others. Win/win.
My disease is failure. I just can’t do anything right.
Take heart and don’t focus so much on your failures. If you haven’t rejected the faith and turned your back on Jesus, you’ve done at least one thing right. And as it so happens, the most important thing 👍
 
If one makes the wrong decision, it is based on an imperfection (like greed, envy, lust, etc.) - thus if one is perfect, they cannot make the wrong decision.
If I were a bettin man, I would be bettin Jesus was taught Euclidean Geometry (he was a carpenter after all). Do you think he answered every one of his questions perfectly? No. I would be guessin not. Does that mean he wasn’t perfect? No. Point bein that if Jesus could make a wrong decision, he could still be perfect.
Remember, God is perfect and he can’t make wrong decisions - that would contradict what perfect means.
Musnt confuse Jesus with God. Remember the mortal and limited attributes of Jesus that where inherent in his form that made him the sacrificial lamb of God. You need to understand what it means to be perfect. Christ understood intimately the nature of right and wrong, but he still had to learn by obedience. Aquinas gave a great lecture on this. Jesus was certainly taught stuff that was wrong, and he most certainly used these errors in his discourse (remember the mustard being the least of seeds?). Yet, inspite of his mortal limitations, he was morally perfect.
A perfect person who can make wrong decisions is like an adulterer who is faithful to his wife. It is a logical contradiction.
Jesus made wrong decisions, and he wasn’t an adulterer.
And here’s the fun part: Jesus saved her IN ADVANCE (Immaculate Conception) - why couldn’t he do that to the rest of us?
Ya dinglberry! He did save us in advance!
And Jesus too, is perfect, and he did nothing wrong. He pleased God.
Heavens to tegucigulpa…he is GOD! Of course he pleased himself!

Is it wrong for me to want so much to please God that I’m upset at my failure to do so?

Yes. You have the sin of pride. You thing there is ‘something’ you can do that will please God besides simple supplication to his love. The protestants have this part right. After we do all we are required to do, it still isn’t enough but the power of Jesus to take away sin. There is nothing you can do that will replace this. Your repentence and love of the Lord is enough to please God. And yes, you will have to repent again, but God knows your heart as you do not.

For all we know you could be a socio or psychopath looking for redemption on this forum, but i suspect not. your just like the rest of us, sinners who constantly repent, but become perfect in the saving grace of the saviour. there are lots of powerful saints inthe church, one of the my favoriates is sant Thérèse of Lisieux. She understood this like noone I know. read her poems to jesus. They will bring joy to your heart.
 
One more thing catholicbob,
Adam was made perfect. He was not in sin nor in transgression, eve was. but he recognized that leaving the Garden of eden to go with eve, who was in sin and transgression, was the right thing to do. adam was faced with choice, stay in the garden or leave with eve. he was faced with a quandry. to do either would result in a sin of disobedience of the other. he choose eve, and brougth about the fall of mankind and seperation from God.

We as men are like that. we do not have omniscience, and we are seperated from the one who does. God knows this. He knew we would be in this spot at the beginning of time and provided for the sacrificail lamb of god so we could be forgiven of our sins during the seperation from god. don’t be to hard on yerself lad. go about yer business and do your mass’n, etc… god will find a way.
 
I can only speculate here, as to perfectly know God’s mind is not something I can do…

Is it possible that God’s definition of “perfect” as He applies it to the individual Human in and of himself requires the possibility that one might have ultimately rejected Him, but ultimately did not? That is to say, what if the perfect human, as God intends a perfect human to be, isn’t something He creates instantaneously but more like a project that ultimately, regardless of how messy the process looked, turns out the way God wants even after the very real possibility of failure?

Is “a being who never could have possibly sinned nor wanted to sin” necessarily the definition God had in mind when He created humans? Is this what God envisioned when He thought “I shall create the human race”? If possibly not, then neither can we say that a perfect human is one who could never have sinned. If, instead, God sees the definition of “perfect human” as a the ultimate outcome of a project, a human being who was capable of [ultimately] loving God perfectly or [ultimately] rejecting Him forever but who in the end [ultimately] chooses God over all that and enters into the beatific vision, then by definition a “perfect human” cannot be instantaneously created in that case. In that case, the perfect human must grow into the desired result of his own non-dictated volition (non-dictated as in, his will was not predetermined to automatically choose God, or else it is not a project but a foregone conclusion) since this definition of “perfect human” would mean that “a person who never sinned because it was impossible for him to even want to” isn’t what God considers the “perfect human” at all; he is, in this case, not something that can be created, he is only something that can become after God created the vessel for that possibility, the laboratory if you will, for that project–the flesh, blood, and soul combination that we call “human” being simultaneously that vessel and laboratory.

By the above definition, one’s total perfection can only be declared in retrospect after having entered into the beatific vision (after which it is impossible to sin, but if “perfect human” is a project gone well despite the possibility of failure, a human who never could have sinned at any point in time is by definition not perfect). For instance, if the above definition of “perfect human” is possibly true, it is possible that our blessed Virgin Mary, both as a “human project” and as a “life journey” was, despite her perfect conduct and perfect journey, only an example of “perfect humanafter having entered the Beatific Vision, as conceivably she could have turned from God but didn’t (as was far easier, but not guaranteed, by the absence of original sin). If “perfect human” is a project, not an instantaneous creation, then the specific project called “Mary”, might have at any given point before the project’s conclusion–her entrance into the beatific vision–proven to be imperfect even despite not having original sin, just as the projects called “Adam” and “Eve” may have. Until that project was concluded, no call could be made as to whether she was a “perfect human” or not. It is the same with us.

A “perfect human”, in other words, may be about the conclusion more than the journey. A perfect human, as opposed to a human for whom the journey was perfect (in Mary’s case both turned out to be true), may well be defined as one who, after whatever hectic sort of journey, ultimately was willingly shaped into a being who could enter into the beatific vision. If this is how God envisions what it means to be a “perfect human” then again, it is not something that could be created, not because God cannot create a person who robotically follows Him and never at any point since its existence could sin, but because that’s simply not what He has in mind when He thinks “the perfect human.” The perfect human would not be a Theo-puppet who never possibly could have sinned, but rather a human who ultimately became ready for the beatific vision despite the ability (and perhaps even temporal willingness) to sin, and perhaps even despite having committed sins along the way before the project was ultimately a success, therefore rendering him an example of “perfect” by God’s envisioned desire for what should constitute a “perfect human.”

In short, the “perfect human” and the “human with the perfect journey” may not be one in the same, and the latter may not be required for God’s definition of the former; although I suspect He is particularly and especially pleased when a human, such as Mary, has a perfect journey or near-perfect journey, for He Himself to guarantee this (i.e. to form the human’s will so that it is impossible for the human to want to sin) would render the “project” that He is going for invalid, and would prevent the human from truly fitting His definition of “perfect human.”

We often (acceptably) use perfection as a shorthand for sinless; and under that definition one might say Adam and Eve were “created” perfect, but this doesn’t mean they were created being instantly what God had in mind when he envisioned the “perfect human”, since as suggested above, that may mean something different than “sinless” and rather mean “someone who attained to the favorable end result of a potentially sin-marked journey”… In other words moral perfection throughout one’s up-until-now existence, by which it might be said Adam and Eve were “perfect until the Fall”, may not be synonymous with “perfect human”–as is suggested from the fact that Adam and Eve did fall (although moral perfection is compatible with “perfect human” and certainly follows forever afterward once one has entered into the beatific vision, this does not mean the two concepts are one in the same).

This is convoluted, to be sure, and I’m totally just speculating in order to make sense of things, but it seems to me to be a possibility…if so, the angels may well have been a similar case, since 1/3 of them fell, but of course the “method” of the “angel” project would seem to have been different than the method for the human one, in whatever way that may be.

Of course, the scientific parallels are only for the sake of analogy and context; God is more to us than a detached scientist, as He is Love and Loves us deeply. It’s just that the terms “project” and the like seem the best allegories for what I am trying to put into words.

If I am somehow being heretical, I certainly don’t mean to be and I sincerely apologize from the depths of my soul. 😊 😦

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
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