Why didn't the son of God incarnate himself as the first man, saving the world and himself a lot of trouble?

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mytruepower2 said:
The problem is that God, being perfect, -cannot- choose evil, so this is not the same thing as a free choice. If God could choose evil, he would be imperfect, and therefore not God.
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So, just to be clear, do you think that God does not have free will?
 
N0X3x said:
Not if the first man hadn’t eaten of the tree and introduced sin, they wouldn’t. After a certain time without the first man eating of the tree, God would have bestowed the beatific vision upon him and all his descendants, making sin impossible.
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Okay I see where you are coming from. Well lets consider this: If Jesus was incarnated as the first man, then created Adam, and Eve in the amount of time before the beatific vision, wouldn’t have Eve still been tempted by the serpent?
 
hazcompat said:
Our Father’s Simple Plan.

Peace
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I’m not supposing that God doesn’t have a reason for it; he probably does.

I just can’t for the life of me figure out what that reason is. the idea that God incarnate can’t have kids has come closest, but it seems to me that whatever reason God would have for that would be overridden by the elimination of all suffering.
 
vincent10395 said:
Okay I see where you are coming from. Well lets consider this: If Jesus was incarnated as the first man, then created Adam, and Eve in the amount of time before the beatific vision, wouldn’t have Eve still been tempted by the serpent?
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Well, as the first man, God incarnate would have been Adam. As for Eve, it is true that she would still have been tempted if formed before the end of the trial period, but God could simply wait until after the trial period was over to form her from Adam’s rib.
 
N0X3x said:
Well, as the first man, God incarnate would have been Adam. As for Eve, it is true that she would still have been tempted if formed before the end of the trial period, but God could simply wait until after the trial period was over to form her from Adam’s rib.
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Than what is the purpose of the trial period?
 
The reason why Jesus Christ came to the earth at the time He did is so that way God the Father could instruct the Israelites gradually over time and prepare them for the coming of Jesus Christ. Had Jesus Christ come in the beginning, the Israelites would not have been ready. That’s how I understand it.
 
N0X3x said:
So, just to be clear, do you think that God does not have free will?
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I think that God does not have the freedom to do evil. Other kinds of freedom, he certainly has, but -no one- has the freedom to make God do evil.
 
vincent10395 said:
But if Jesus is Adam, and Eve wasn’t created yet, so God is testing himself?
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From a certain perspective, yes, but he is also testing the first human.

The idea is no more or less bizarre than the idea that God became man to die for the transgressions of a law that he himself established.
 
mytruepower2 said:
I think that God does not have the freedom to do evil. Other kinds of freedom, he certainly has, but -no one- has the freedom to make God do evil.
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If that were true, then perfection includes the inability to perform evil acts. So… why doesn’t God make us with that inability?
 
N0X3x said:
From a certain perspective, yes, but he is also testing the first human.

The idea is no more or less bizarre than the idea that God became man to die for the transgressions of a law that he himself established.
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Yes it is more bizarre, because we were slaves to sin, and sin is not from God. God is the only one who could have saved us from sin. The test was for both man, and women. The test would be pointless, because Jesus is perfect and wouldn’t have chosen to disobey. The test was for those without a divine nature.
 
vincent10395 said:
Yes it is more bizarre, because we were slaves to sin, and sin is not from God.
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I don’t see how that makes Jesus’s redemptive act less bizarre and surprizing then the scenario I’m describing. Someone needs to make the initial decision for the rest of humanity, why not the man-god?
God is the only one who could have saved us from sin.
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Right, but he could have saved us by simply becoming the first man.
The test was for both man, and women.
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The test was representitive for all human beings. there is no need to suppose that a representative from each gender needed to be present. By that logic, there needed to be a female messiah to save the women.
The test would be pointless, because Jesus is perfect and wouldn’t have chosen to disobey. The test was for those without a divine nature.
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The test would have a foreseen outcome. It would not have been pointless. A person who was fully man would have made the representative decision for all of his descendants, using his free will. the first man-- fully man-- would have made a free will decision. Those were the conditions by which God would bestow the beatific vision on all human beings. That’s far from pointless.
 
N0X3x said:
I’m wondering why the second person of the trinity chose to incarnate himself as the son of a Jewish carpenter at the particular moment in history that he did.

One could say that he had to choose some time, and that time works just as well as any other. Some religious historians suppose, for various reasons, that the particular time he arrived was the best in human history.

That might be true from a redemptive perspective, but I have my doubts that it is true overall. Consider what would have happened if he had incarnated himself as the first human being. If he had waited until the trial period in the garden was over before forming a female companion and having children, original sin would never have been a problem in the first place, suffering and the crucifixion would never have happened, and the the beatific vision may well have been secured for all humanity from that point on.

Does anyone have any ideas?
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Sooooooo. It would be fitting for God to procreate?
 
Jon_S said:
Sooooooo. It would be fitting for God to procreate?
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Sure. if he’s the first human being alive, why not? All human beings would be descended from him. It actually seems rather fitting.
 
N0X3x said:
I don’t see how that makes Jesus’s redemptive act less bizarre and surprizing then the scenario I’m describing. Someone needs to make the initial decision for the rest of humanity, why not the man-god?
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Yes the initial decision was made, the reason the God-man didn’t make the decision was because that would take away free will. It would be taken away because God (who knows not evil) would be sending us right to the beatific vision, whether or not we want it. Its just God making robots.

Right, but he could have saved us by simply becoming the first man.

The test was representitive for all human beings. there is no need to suppose that a representative from each gender needed to be present. By that logic, there needed to be a female messiah to save the women.

^^True my bad:D

The test would have a foreseen outcome. It would not have been pointless. A person who was fully man would have made the representative decision for all of his descendants, using his free will. the first man-- fully man-- would have made a free will decision. Those were the conditions by which God would bestow the beatific vision on all human beings. That’s far from pointless.

But don’t you see that it is biased to have the God-man make the test and then do it. Yes he is fully man,but he is God also. The test is for those who are just man.
 
vincent10395 said:
Yes the initial decision was made, the reason the God-man didn’t make the decision was because that would take away free will. It would be taken away because God (who knows not evil) would be sending us right to the beatific vision, whether or not we want it. Its just God making robots.
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It doesn’t matter whether Adam would have been God or not. If Adam had made the right decision, all of his descendants would have instantly been present to the beatific vision from the moment they began to exist. Whether or not the first man had been God makes no difference.
But don’t you see that it is biased to have the God-man make the test and then do it. Yes he is fully man,but he is God also. The test is for those who are just man.
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You might just as well say that it is unfair for God to pay for our crimes. Since man got himself into that mess of original sin, it should be up to man to get himself out. But no, the man-God paid our fines for us.

If he can pay the fines of mankind, even though he is God, and thereby reopen the gates of heaven, I see no reason why he can’t also make our decisions and keep them from closing to man in the first place.

to put it another way, God gives the human race a general judgement at the end of time. Jesus’s Death on the cross has the power to change that general judgement, even though Jesus is God!

I think it is clear then, that judging the human race based on the actions of the God-man is not something God is opposed to. In fact, that is exactly what he has done. or, should I say, will do.
 
N0X3x said:
If that were true, then perfection includes the inability to perform evil acts. So… why doesn’t God make us with that inability?
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Because in order to be in any kind of meaningful relationship with God, we must have the ability to choose to -not- be in that relationship. Now, we can’t reject God without doing evil, but he could withhold his grace from us without it being in any way an evil act, so our positions are simply not equal in this matter. We require the potential for evil in order to make a loving choice on behalf of God.
 
How could Christ be the first man???

He was begotten not made.

Man was created by God, that is why Jesus had to be incarnate of the Virgin Mary… How could Jesus be incarnate of something that has not yet been created?
 
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