Why different religions

[St_Redemption]

They way I see it is that God, since the beginning, has been putting into the minds of humans what could be called “queer dreams” and notions of who He is. With that, and with what people have been handed down from Him, people have try to interpret this truth with the result being many various different ideas. Some of the ideas are stained by the inferior mind of man, some may have been tampered with by the Devil, but the net result was that it produced a large number of different ideas.

God choose to reveal Himself the most completely to the Jews. While other cultures kept combining Gods as their societies merged, it was the Jews who refused to allow their God to be lumped in with the other Gods. They preserved their idea of God uncompromisingly and guarded it with their lives as a national treasure. So, as Chesterton once said, “The world owes God to the Jews.”

 

[daler]

IgnatianPhilo;11849045:

Good morning IgnatianPhilo: I don’t think it’s a matter of God sending us to heaven or God sending us to hell. The Kingdom of God is within us. If we are not finding it and living it, we are already in hell. Call Him what you will, but find Him within. Know Him when you see Him. If we think we haven’t seen Him, we are already in hell.

Gary,
. Very well said. As to our friend’s difficulty with the name of Allah, it should be noted that at least 10 million Arabic speaking Christians pray to Allah, simply because in their language this is the name of God.

. It goes back to the earliest records of El, Elah, Elohim, etc. Not sure why this is so hard to follow and accept that others pray to the same God. The same sun makes the plants grow physically. The same God makes the hearts grow spiritually.

. I think when one has an axe to grind, they are gonna grind it on anything that is convenient, and then start swinging it! What can you say?

. God bless ( and Wakan Tanka, too!

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Gary Sheldrake;11849151:

Gary,
. Very well said. As to our friend’s difficulty with the name of Allah, it should be noted that at least 10 million Arabic speaking Christians pray to Allah, simply because in their language this is the name of God.

. It goes back to the earliest records of El, Elah, Elohim, etc. Not sure why this is so hard to follow and accept that others pray to the same God. The same sun makes the plants grow physically. The same God makes the hearts grow spiritually.

. I think when one has an axe to grind, they are gonna grind it on anything that is convenient, and then start swinging it! What can you say?

. God bless ( and Wakan Tanka, too!

Hi Daler: My understanding is that Jesus may have also called God by Allah as well. Are you Sioux by the way?

Thanks,
Gary

 

[daler]

daler;11849998:

Hi Daler: My understanding is that Jesus may have also called God by Allah as well. Are you Sioux by the way?

Thanks,
Gary

Gary,
. Yes, interesting about language. Aramaic is still spoken by several hundred thousand people, I’ve read, but as people move from the rural to cities, from generation to generation it is losing ground, as did so many Native languages.

. My grandparents homesteaded on the Yankton Sioux Reservation in South Dakota, so I grew up among the Lakota, with many friends from there. Some of the old people did not speak English, but all of them left such an impression as being thoughtful, caring, and gentle souls.

. It was hard to look at the poverty and alcoholism, which there was so much of, and that I saw through the eyes of a child, if you know what I mean, wondering why it was the way it was. Even as a child I remember thinking that it was as though the Thanksgiving table had been turned upside down, and started looking for answers as to what would set it right again.

Peace,
Dale

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Gary Sheldrake;11850243:

Gary,
. Yes, interesting about language. Aramaic is still spoken by several hundred thousand people, I’ve read, but as people move from the rural to cities, from generation to generation it is losing ground, as did so many Native languages.

. My grandparents homesteaded on the Yankton Sioux Reservation in South Dakota, so I grew up among the Lakota, with many friends from there. Some of the old people did not speak English, but all of them left such an impression as being thoughtful, caring, and gentle souls.

. It was hard to look at the poverty and alcoholism, which there was so much of, and that I saw through the eyes of a child, if you know what I mean, wondering why it was the way it was. Even as a child I remember thinking that it was as though the Thanksgiving table had been turned upside down, and started looking for answers as to what would set it right again.

Peace,
Dale

Thanks Dale. I think it would be really interesting to live among the Native American people. I haven’t been exposed to that culture much though.

 

[daler]

daler;11851037:

Thanks Dale. I think it would be really interesting to live among the Native American people. I haven’t been exposed to that culture much though.

Gary,
. Having been born in 1953, the weight of cultural domination and the imposition of values, whether material or spiritual, had translated into an atmosphere quite challenging to people born on one side of the tracks or the other. You might say there was a different sort of struggle going on by that time, several generations after the Dances With Wolves phase and the “Battle” of Wounded Knee, which was, of course, a massacre.

. Where I grew up was about 200 miles east of there, and to this day, there remains a slow evolution of humanity trying to find its sea legs, or land legs, (how 'bout prairie legs…

. We assume identities and play roles that we are not even conscious of. As a kid when we played cowboys and Indians, even the Indians wanted to be the cowboys, because they were the “good guys” on TV, and in the John Wayne movies. A few years later, the most bizarre thing I can remember was this adult Indian at the University always dressed up as a Jesuit priest, a role he had assumed in accordance with whatever pressures, rewards, and punishments his environment was putting upon him, good or bad, in his formative years.

. Then, when living on the east coast about twenty to thirty years ago, I would take my family to Pow Wows where people were so “watered down” genetically that all these essentially white Indians would be all dressed up, dancing in costumes, finding out who they perceived themselves to be via some long lost grandmother from the Cherokee nation or whatever.

. So as the cards are shuffled and people from every tribe on earth begin to traverse the many lands available to them now, so called “mixed races” descend (which is a very good thing!) and restore genetic diversity. Sometimes I think this may be one of the things which actually drives people to war, the underlying impulse to transfer genes.

. Along with all that has happened, however, is that “beliefs” which people claim as their own, primarily because of ancestral inheritance, are denied to one group, adopted by another (whether through imposition or fancy trinkets and rituals which capture the imagination), and what we call “religion” gets spread all over the globe. We assume we have more choice in this than we do, as a basic understanding of human psychology and sociology reveals. For the most part, we are just imitating the behavior of those around us, until we wrestle with our own spirit amidst the fires of tests.

. Most cultures succeed, with whatever is associated with them, as a response to environmental pressures to which they are attuned, weather patterns, drought, abundance, plants and animals, the scenery. Beneath all this is what is not seen, but felt on the deepest level. This spiritual awakening then longs to be expressed, usually coming out in music and dance, sacred stories which are too often taken literally, and then lose their meaning and purpose.

. Yeah… We gotta look beyond the pow wows and casinos, huh…
.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Good morning IgnatianPhilo: I don’t think it’s a matter of God sending us to heaven or God sending us to hell. The Kingdom of God is within us. If we are not finding it and living it, we are already in hell. Call Him what you will, but find Him within. Know Him when you see Him. If we think we haven’t seen Him, we are already in hell.

I remember Jesus saying something different.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Gary Sheldrake;11849151:

Gary,
. Very well said. As to our friend’s difficulty with the name of Allah, it should be noted that at least 10 million Arabic speaking Christians pray to Allah, simply because in their language this is the name of God.

. It goes back to the earliest records of El, Elah, Elohim, etc. Not sure why this is so hard to follow and accept that others pray to the same God. The same sun makes the plants grow physically. The same God makes the hearts grow spiritually.

. I think when one has an axe to grind, they are gonna grind it on anything that is convenient, and then start swinging it! What can you say?

. God bless ( and Wakan Tanka, too!

Well its a hard thing to reconcile that those Arabic Christians are worshiping Jesus as Allah. Lets say there is One Allah and he has three persons, The father, the son and the holy spirit. Allah condemns them all to hell, they are the worst of all creatures. Yet you want to tell me they worship the same God merely because they use the same word? Is that how it works?

How do you reconcile the absolute condemnation we receive as Christians and yet tell us we are all worshiping the same God? Or is the quran wrong? Or was that punishment only for a time? Did God reverse course when your prophet came?

You cannot reconcile all religions, its not possible.

 

[Servant19]

daler;11849998:

You cannot reconcile all religions, its not possible.

Impossible??

There are over 10 million Baha’is who are making the impossible possible, and reaping the spiritual fruits from having an all-embracing outlook on God’s loved ones.

Long may that continue!

.

 

[daler]

IgnatianPhilo;11854582:

Impossible??

There are over 10 million Baha’is who are making the impossible possible, and reaping the spiritual fruits from having an all-embracing outlook on God’s loved ones.

Long may that continue!

.

. Indeed, my friend Servant, what attracted me most to the Baha’i Faith back around 1980 and ever since was the incredible, genuine good will, warmth shown between the diverse members of the human race who had finally!! come together, with heartfelt love for one another, having overcome past fears, prejudices, superiority complexes, various forms of separation and oppression, all unjustified in the eyes of the One God Who made all of us, and upon Whom everyone who recognizes the fulfillment of their own prophecies of the coming of a “Promised One”, and that these people who call themselves Baha’is, know that in essence religion is one force in the world, expressed differently according inspiration and culture.

. As my Lakota friends would lovingly say: “Lela washte” Very good…

. Mitakuye Oyasin You are all my relatives

. "Then Black Elk saw that the sacred hoop of his people was only one of many hoops, all joined together to make one great circle, the great hoop of all peoples. In the center of the great hoop stood a powerful, sheltering, flowering tree, and under it gathered children of all nations.

At the end of Black Elk’s vision, two spirit men gave him the day-break-star herb of understanding. He dropped the herb down to the world below, and it flowered, spreading its power out into the whole world. In time, he was promised, his people would be free and would help spread this power of peace and understanding." from Black Elk Speaks.

. This is the Lakota tradition equivalent to “There shall be One Fold and One Shepherd.” It is commonly referred to as “the Sacred Hoop of All Nations”, and this Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux saw forming the coming together of all of humanity, and he saw in a sacred manner.

. Instead of calling the thread: Why different religions, perhaps it could be entitled “Why are so many people’s paths joining them together in finding God, the Great Spirit?” for religions is in fact one path, that of many paths becoming One Path in this day, for those who recognize it and walk in unity along that path. It is thee most wonderful feeling to join with our brothers and sisters all over the planet, who are walking this path to God, together. And none would have it any other way. For all the cousins are there. All the relatives. Mitakuye Oyasin

 

[Oska2]

Another way to think about it is that there is only one Sun, but it has many dawning places. Though it rises in different places with a different name it is still the same Sun

God Bless and Regards Tony

The true God has revealed himself through His Son.
Just like in the garden of Eden, God has given mankind freewill. But the consequences still hold for doing against His commands.

 

[openmind77]

The true God has revealed himself through His Son.
Just like in the garden of Eden, God has given mankind freewill. But the consequences still hold for doing against His commands.

God reveals Himself periodically through an incarnation of the Son, approximately every 2000 years (according to the precession of the equinoxes).

These messengers or Sons of God usually cause a religion to be established in their name.

The Sons of God for a few of the previous ages:
10000-8000 Age of Leo - Hermes (Egypt) - ancient Egyptian religion
8000-6000 Age of Cancer- Hercules (Greece) - ancient Greek religion
6000-4000 Age of Gemini - Rama (India) - Hinduism
4000-2000 Age of Taurus - Mithra (Europe) - Mithraism
2000- 0 Age of Aries - Krishna (India) - Hinduism
0 - 2000 Age of Pisces - Jesus (Middle-east) - Christianity

In between the 2000 year periods, there may be other messengers or prophets (like Muhammad or Bahaullah) who do start their own religions, but usually they just extend the dominant religion of the current Age (which is Christianity today).

So all religions just come from the same God and he is pretty kind and merciful, so I would not worry too much about any consequences because of which religion you follow, as along as you don’t hurt anyone else.

 

[tonyfish58]

The true God has revealed himself through His Son.
Just like in the garden of Eden, God has given mankind freewill. But the consequences still hold for doing against His commands.

Agreed!

Though there is only One sun it has many Dawning Places and gives different Attributes at each of those Dawning Places.

This is the easy way to see the Unity of all the Religions. The same God (Sun) sends His Prophets (Dawning Places) to give mankind the message needed to live in the age of that Dawning (Attributes of that Religion)

In the end it all adds up to the Knowledge that there is only One Sun.

If One only wants to look at one Dawning of the Sun, that is all one will see.

God Bless all and regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

IgnatianPhilo;11854582:

Impossible??

There are over 10 million Baha’is who are making the impossible possible, and reaping the spiritual fruits from having an all-embracing outlook on God’s loved ones.

Long may that continue!

.

Try as you might, you still cannot make a square circle.

You cannot make the God of Unitarians and Trinitarians one either.

My central points have been otherwise ignored.

 

[daler]

Servant19;11854848:

Try as you might, you still cannot make a square circle.

You cannot make the God of Unitarians and Trinitarians one either.

My central points have been otherwise ignored.

Ignatian,
. The central point I seem to be hearing from you is that mankind is not one because of the “differences” people perceive within the groupings with which they identify themselves and exclude others.

. For example, a white man excludes non-white men from his racial group and thus says “We are not one.”

. An American excludes a Russian from his national group and says “We are not one.”

. A Protestant excludes a Catholic from his religious group and says “We are not one.”

. A wealthy man excludes a poor man from his country club and says “We are not one.”

. In the Name of God Who created all humanity from the same dust can one exalt himself over another and through pure imagination deny that the same God created all and that “All are His servants, and all abide by His bidding.” from the Bab

. “Be as fingers of one hand” Baha’u’llah

. “Ye are the leaves of one tree and the fruits of just one branch.” Baha’u’llah

. “Nothing short of the unity of the entire human race will suffice to heal the ills which afflict mankind.” Baha’ullah

. The principals of His teachings are the “Oneness of God, the Oneness of Mankind, and the Oneness of Religion.”

. “Gory not in this that you love your country. Rather glory in this that you love mankind.” Baha’u’llah

. For those who persist and see themselves as superior to the other humble members of the human race, He says:

“O CHILDREN OF MEN!
. Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory.”

I do believe with all my heart that your objection has been answered, dear friend.
That some of us fully believe in the fulfillment of the prophecy of “the One Fold and the One Shepherd” in this take clears all such objections away for all time, but only for those who have eyes to see. Jesus said of the Pharisees, “Eyes they have, but see not.”

Black Elk said: “I saw forming the Sacred Hoop of All Nations”

Buddha taught that there was coming the Buddha of Universal Brotherhood.

That we use slightly different words to say the same thing does not take away from the truth of the message, which is that “We are one”, as Dan Seals sings.

When I gather with my fellow Baha’is from nearly every nation, race, and religion, whether rich or poor, into one great fellowship and know firsthand that we are part of the visions of Isaiah and Black Elk, feel it in my bones, beyond mere intellectual analysis, but see all men as my own flesh and blood relatives, then I shall maintain unequivocally the Oneness of God, the Oneness of Mankind (all created by that One God,), and the Oneness of Religions (when truly understood and shorn of superstitious dogma,)

The Pharisees maintained that they were not “one” with Christ. Thus Christ called them blind, a generation of vipers. I prefer to be One with my Lord God and the Messengers Whom He, in His unerring wisdom, chooses to send to usher into the One Fold which I have entered into, seeing with my own eyes, from the inside, the bright faces of all of God’s children, their hearts turned towards God and each other, filled with the Holy Spirit, enamored with the wonders of His bounty and grace. They have no barriers of skin, nation, religion, wealth, religion to separate them anymore, as has been the case throughout all of human history, for they have broken those shackles for all time as Baha’is. Ask any of them. Any at all, and you’ll get the same answer, the same enthusiasm, the same love of Christ you cherish, only extended to and received in like proportion from all of God’s Kingdom, which has come in the hearts of His chosen ones, who have chosen Him. Praised be to God!!

We are indeed sheep in need of a shepherd. All these flocks gathered throughout human history are being gathered, willingly, into a single, indivisible whole one flock, in this, the Day of God, by reviving winds of His grace, the over powerful majesty of His Words, and the Spirit of the Age.

Indeed, no further evidence is required than the careful perusal of the Book of Certitude by Baha’u’llah, and my challenge is to study it with the eye God has given you without prejudice, honestly tasting of the fruits of this divine Tree.

. "http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

How keen you are daler to shift what I perceive as our division not from religious affiliation or philosophical affiliation but instead to race or nation. My main point was never to deny we are one human species, when I look at the various races that attend my church I do not think of them any differently, they are Orthodox, in fact better Orthodox than myself. But do you think the protestant and the Catholic are one? Both confess more or less the same creed of NIcea true, but both abstain from each other’s communion table, both refuse to acknowledge each other as having the fullness of Christ and both refuse to have brothership with each other or formal communion. They are not One in that fundamental sense.

Your other points about race however are irrelevant. We are not talking about race, are we Daler? We are talking about religions, which do contradict each other. I have pointed out that the Quran condemns me, I am an idolater bound to hell because I worship Jesus Christ, whom in the quran, denies he is equal with Allah. You have not addressed this, in fact you have ignored this whenever I brought it up either in this thread or another.

It is just one of the confusions you as a bahai face in trying to reconcile the world to your worldview. We at one level are one human race, that is true, but on a deeper level we are a divided human race, so divided between ourselves by our ideologies and theologies. You are not in the body of Christ, as I am, you are of the body of Ali Hussain. These are starkly different bodies, one in which we proclaim that materiality will not be left to decay, the other in which materiality is rejected in favour of the purely spiritual.

If you cannot see the division here, which is fundamental, which is a contradiction, then what more is there to say? You are denying reality, you would say to Athanasius and Arius “Brothers, surely you agree we worship the same God right?” and they would both be united and one in their laughter of the bahai philosophy and together would mock you.

This is my central point Daler, we are not all one religiously or philosophically, we are a deeply divided lot and I suspect that Christ was true when he said most would enter the easy wide gate, instead of the narrow. But if we are already one philosophically and religiously, what are you arguing for? You have already won, go worship your religion and leave us alone, stop trying to convince us of your prophet because are already one. If you really believe that, then stop trying to contradict Christians.

But I was reading the book of genesis recently and I came to that story of the tower of Babel. Where mankind united as one and God instead of praising them (as I imagine the bahai God would have done to them) the true God dispersed them for their arrogance by confusing their language. Just something to think about, that God had a purpose in giving mankind various different languages.

 

[daler]

How keen you are daler to shift what I perceive as our division not from religious affiliation or philosophical affiliation but instead to race or nation…
Just something to think about, that God had a purpose in giving mankind various different languages.

Ignatian,
. Thank you for your concise reply, expressing your views, and even your frustrations with me. That we peer from two different mountain peeks upon the valleys below does not mean that the people who inhabit those valleys are not the same people, although they themselves may differ upon their own identities, whether that be of nation, race, or beliefs.

. For me, the central point of this thread “Why religions differ”, encompasses all of those aspects of humanity through which people have diverged from a common recognition of their fundamental oneness, and can be explained by the adoption of various false premises purported along the way. Whether such an illusion of superiority or exclusion stems from racial, political, or religious identification, the goal should be to see past the illusion and gain an insight into reality.

. When each clings to a largely inherited belief system which has been followed all of one’s life, there are forces at work to hold one to that original identity, whether that be family, nation, or beliefs. These herd pressures are real and present in all of us, and cannot be denied. They influence our opinions, behaviors, and thought processes.

. To step out of one’s comfort zone requires courage and a willingness to feel quite uncomfortable, at times. Religion has always called people to do this, the result being antagonism and a challenge to the status quo. Jesus set brother against brother by calling those who were awake to a new spiritual paradigm, and those who followed Him were pursued by the former from which they came.

. That you feel condemned by Muslims for having bowed down to an idol is, I assume, a sore spot of contention with you in the consideration of any resolution between Christianity and Islam. That the Quran speaks against idolatry is because worship to anyone besides God, or Allah, falls short of the goal. When we over-deify the Apostle or Messiah, and form an “idol” other than God, or Allah, then we worship the form and not the Spirit, the lamp and not the Light.

. As to the Tower of Babel, my understanding is that God dispersed them because they were on a “physical” path to God, into the physical heavens, rather than the abode of the Placeless. So they were clearly on the wrong path and He put confusion into their hearts, for they were not seeking Him where He truly dwells.

. (Forgive me if I do not address every topic you present in a single post. It is hard for me to concentrate so deeply for too long because of my physical limitations, back pain, etc, which distract me. I do the best I can, but it is simpler for me to focus on a single topic.) Nevertheless, I will try to address the issue of division you present between the various Christian sects, and the lack of “oneness”, even within Christianity, let alone the entire planet.

. So as Christians contradict Christians, and Muslims contradict Muslims, and all contradict each other, whether Jew, Hindu, and all the various tribes, nations, cultures, and religions, it would seem appropriate to suggest that what is meant by the coming of “The One Fold and the One Shepherd” must inherently call people away from their own positions, or at least attain a level of objectivity where consideration of the views of others is not only allowed, but encouraged in rationale dialogue without resorting to insults and damning others to hell, which frequently occurs.

. As you suggest that I am not of the same “body of Christ” that you are may in fact be a compliment in disguise, “if” your body is a Tower of Babel or “if” Jesus has become an idol, for my goal is unity with the One Shepherd and acceptance into the One Fold, in which there is room for all people of every race, nation, and religion. For God created us all, and the confusion over identity and beliefs is of our own making and an illusion, neither rooted in God, nor His Messengers.

. It may well be true that the fabric of our faiths has become wrinkled over time, and these need to be ironed out. That is what dialogue is for, and thank God that we have put away our swords. “Come, let us reason together.”

God bless

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

So if I have your thought down right it goes something like this: “we are all one, we just don’t recognise it”. Except that your oneness cannot be defined. What makes us one exactly? Obviously we are one human race, but we are not one community, we are not one system of believers, we are not one church and we are certainly not one in spirit.

You argue something about a lost identity, that time purges with its teachings by parents, culture and etc. Do you have that original teaching? Are you alone to preserve this and to teach your children this oneness you prescribe we have but refuse to recognise? I however disagree with your assertion we are one in anything beyond being part of the one human species.

You refer to Jesus, who you correctly said set brother against brother, but also family against family. I do not know how Jesus helps you here, he was concerned with creating a community which would recognise him, that he who does not recognise Jesus does not have the kingdom of God. Where do atheists fit into that oneness? Are they one with the Christians in that? Obviously they are not. The same could be said of the jews. Jesus didn’t unite people, he divided them and set up another religious community that would persist that a man could rise from the dead (You know what I mean, don’t pretend to agree with my statement. I’m sorry to do this but you bahai have a habit of misreading statements as if you agree with them).

Now It Is not the muslims I feel condemned by, it is the quran. I am promised hellfire because I actively disbelieve in Muhammad. 98:6 Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures. Now if this does not damn me, I do not know what does. So how exactly am I, the worst of creatures, one with the Islamic or bahai community here? There is a clear distinction between the faithful and the unfaithful (the Christians) that is so powerful that Hell is the promised place we who disbelieve will be in.

I also find it a tad odd you would be opposed to a physical heaven. Is that not the bahai dream? To walk towards this brave new world in which Utopia and perfection are created? One universal language, one universal religion, no boarders, no distinctions, no separatism, all is one, one is all? Babel should have been praised, not destroyed by your God, at least in my mind.

Your answer to the contradictions isn’t to acknowledge them but to brush away with them and say follow this new prophet? I wonder in a thousand years when many people have the idea to fake being the new revelation what will happen to the bahai, how split they will be (if they still exist) or if they will retain their religion not believing in any of the fakesters. Where will unity be then for surely that is the precedent set forth by the religions of the world that you claim were revealed by true men and do not divide. Why is it that Jesus regarded the gentile woman of lesser importance than the Jew? Why did Moses command the Jews not be with their pagan neighbours around them? Not to take wives from them? Why did Muhammad apparently seek war with the Byzantines if they were truly one? I don’t think religion is as simple as you present it.

But what you offer, the body of Ali Hussain in which you say every nation and creed is kept (which I think is a falsehood as bahais cannot confess Christianity otherwise they cease to be bahai) is what I see in Christ. Do I need to repeat Paul’s words that I am sure you know, that there is no slave or free, gentile or jew for all are one in Christ Jesus? Here the oneness is defined, it is not this vague abstraction you seem to believe but rather it is the confession of Jesus Christ as Lord, that he rose from the dead and that he will come back. Now here is where you claim your prophet had fulfilled that and that’s a debate for another thread and topic.

At the heart of it, there are different religions because they have fundamental differences and contradictions. You seem to recognize this, pretending we are one yet maintaining we need to forsake the old and embrace the new. You cannot have both.

 

[daler]

So if I have your thought down right it goes something like this: “we are all one, we just don’t recognize it”. .

Ignatian,
. It may be that I have difficulty conveying something which to me, is very, very profound. The Lakota tradition of purification in the Sweat Lodge is preceded, and followed, by the words: Mitakoye Oyasin which means, essentially, “We are One”

. It has a couple of translations: “All my relations” meaning that one is to come to an awareness that every creature, every tree, even the rocks are all my relations. There is a depth of this which cannot be conveyed by words alone. It must be experienced, and it cannot be experienced by anyone whose heart is hardened by hate, conflict, prejudice, or any form of superiority, however expressed.

. The essence of the teachings of Christ confirm for me this Lakota belief in the oneness of humanity. So do the teachings of Muhammad, though you find that difficult to follow. Had the Byzantines “truly” been followers of Christ, there would have been no war.

. In recognizing the oneness of mankind, the differences are acknowledged as well. Just like the Lakota see the different attributes of the Great Spirit expressed in the creatures of the land, lakes, and the air, so too, the human creatures, or “two-legged ones” express different attributes associated with their own unique personhood, tribe, religion. Yet underlying this, all of this, such a fundamental recognition exists that a deep, penetrating spiritual insight alone can grasp its significance.

. To continually be on the lookout for differences (which are there) to be used as a “right of exclusion” to “my” club, “my” race, or “my” religion, limits the soul from accepting other souls as kindred spirits and perpetuates a level of sibling rivalry which, although appropriate in the stage of childhood, must be set aside in order to mature.

. Admittedly, it is a “vision” of the oneness of humanity, but it is the same vision given to us by Jesus, and Isaiah

. "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. John 10:16

. “Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.” The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares, “Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.” Isaiah 56: 7, 8

. So yes, I am guilty, as are all Baha’is, in believing that which was prophesied in the past. We are guilty, your honor, of honoring the words of Jesus and Isaiah. We are guilty of “recognizing” that we are actually living in the days of the fulfillment of these visions for which Jesus was crucified and Isaiah was sawed in half. We are proud of this guilt, and would not trade it for the world, or all its pomp and splendor.

. We are proud to declare it in the face of opposition, whether on the streets of Tehran or on the Internet. Indeed, how can one who beholds such a vision keep silent?

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[IgnatianPhilo]

It seems difficult to accuse the Byzantines of not being Christ followers because they engaged in war. No doubt they engaged in a lot of unjust war, but also in a lot of Just war from the onslaught of the Persians and then eventually the Muslims. Yes the peaceful Muslims who relentlessly attacked Constantinople until it was theirs and it is now modern day turkey. So while I can agree to some extent that the old idea of a Christian empire like the Byzantines, did not conform itself to Christ, I cannot allow you to demean them by suggesting as whole their warfare was not justified or that somehow they were as a whole not Christian. Had the heads of states not defended themselves the west might have become islamified and Britain might be the modern day Iran, something I am sure you are quite grateful never happened.

But you speak of oneness and yet I have no idea what it means. You are constantly contradicting yourself saying: We are all one, so let’s all let go of that old religion and embrace this Persian guy instead. If we are already all one why do we need to embrace this Persian guy? How are we one when you will not accept the Eucharist? Will not accept Jesus and his resurrection? Will not become part of his body which is the church?

Define your oneness. Be specific. I am not a fan of mysticism beyond that of orthodoxy. Nor do I accept your interpretation of the Old or new testament.