Why do animals suffer?

[catholic1seeks]

**Why do animals suffer? ****The answer can’t be original sin because animals SUFFERED before “Adam”. **
(I don’t know why I put quotation marks around Adam; I feel awkward even talking about the subject anymore.)

**Dinosaurs ate other dinosaurs. Animals are in agony when they are torn apart by animals bigger (or even smaller) than them.

What is the origin of this “physical evil”? Why does God permit animals to suffer? It’s not their fault, and Adam didn’t cause it either.**

From New Advent:

The nature and degree of pain in lower animals is very obscure, and in the necessary absence of data it is difficult to say weather it should rightly be classed with the merely formal evil which belongs to inanimate objects, or with the suffering of human beings…Thus it has often been supposed that animal suffering, together with many of the imperfections of inanimate nature, was due to the fall of man, with whose welfare, as the chief part of creation, were bound up the fortunes of the rest…The opposite view is taken by St. Thomas (I, Q. xcvi, a. 1,2). Descartes supposed that animals were merely machines, without sensation or consciousness; he was closely followed by Malebranche and Cartesians generally. Leibniz grants sensation to animals, but considers that mere sense-perception, unaccompanied by reflexion, cannot cause either pain or pleasure; in any case he holds the pain and pleasure of animals to be parable in degree to those resulting from reflex action in man.

newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm

New Advent makes distinction between three kinds of evil:
physical, moral, and metaphysical

 

[catholic1seeks]

 

[VociMike]

Describe a world in which animals do not suffer. How would God have done that?

Remember Rom 8:22: We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now

 

[mcs7474]

Maybe because of our sin we were treated like animals. After all when we sin and reject God, are we not acting like animals? Why not let us suffer like them as well.

 

[ricko]

Actually I think the Church is at a loss concerning animals. Some of (if not all) the Church material I have read seems so way off when I look at my two cats and how intelligent they are. I have seen the same emotions in them as in humans. No doubt that they do experience pain. The Church says that they do not have souls like ours. I find that hard to believe. Why do they suffer? Maybe it’s because they are put here in our world and I do not know of any animal in this world that does not suffer. I guess the answer to that and much more will be revealed to us after death.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

The suffering that an animal endures is not caused by the fall of mankind. Animals have natural souls; they are not made in the image and likeness of God. They cannot reason, believe in God and they cannot “fall from grace”. They suffer and die because God gave did not make them immune from suffering and death. Why did God do this? Well, no one knows the mind of God, of course, but if animals were not corruptible, mankind certainly would not have been able to thrive. We would have been eaten by dinosaurs a long time ago. Creation was made for God’s good pleasure and all of the beasts of the earth were put under man’s dominion. They were gifted to us. That means we should take care of animals and not intentionally cause their suffering, but it also means that they are not to be put on equal footing with man.

As a side note, the CCC 1008 says that man would have been ‘immune from death’ had he not fallen and “death entered the world as a consequence of sin”. What then would have made us immune to death, when it is clear that animals were dying long before man came along? It seems to me that the only answer is the unity of our eternal soul to our body. CCC 395 says “The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature” The fall of man severely damaged our eternal souls and as a result our physical bodies became susceptible to injury, disease and death. When our eternal soul was “intact” so to speak, the body was incorruptible. Animals, on the other hand, were never given eternal souls, so it makes sense that they were never immune from death.

:twocents:

 

[Slayer]

Wasn’t Adam created before the animals?

There is evidence that man and dinosaurs have co-existed, which goes against the evolution theory.

I would think they suffer due to Original Sin.

 

[syrinx2112]

I’d like to hear more about this “evidence”. (I know it’s getting off topic, but I gotta hear this!

 

[Mike_Dye]

Actually I think the Church is at a loss concerning animals. Some of (if not all) the Church material I have read seems so way off when I look at my two cats and how intelligent they are. I have seen the same emotions in them as in humans. No doubt that they do experience pain. The Church says that they do not have souls like ours. I find that hard to believe. Why do they suffer? Maybe it’s because they are put here in our world and I do not know of any animal in this world that does not suffer. I guess the answer to that and much more will be revealed to us after death.

I tend to agree with you. While the Church teaches that humans are made in the image and likeness of God it is pretty silent about animals. Of course they are not made in Gods image and likeness, but that does not rule out that an animal soul is not something God would care about. After all God created everything. Why on Earth would He create something that is not of value. We read in Holy Scripture that a new heaven and a NEW EARTH is in store for us. I truly believe that in heaven there will be animals…especially animals we shared our lives with…We were promised by Jesus that we would be truly happy in heaven…for me to be truly happy I need to know that my critters are OK. Silly, I know but nevertheless true.

 

[Slayer]

I’d like to hear more about this “evidence”. (I know it’s getting off topic, but I gotta hear this!

Check it out here. That site is not Catholic, but it is a good resource none the less.

Scrool down to about midway where it reads: If humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, why aren’t their fossils found together? Is there other evidence that humans and dinosaurs lived together?

 

[Eucharisted]

This is more a question for science.

 

[survive]

Wasn’t Adam created before the animals?

Where did you hear that?
I think animals suffered illness and death yet their lives were relatively easy compared to now, before Original Sin, but we caused the world to be harsher in every way when we sinned.

 

[That_one_guy]

There is no place in the Bible where it says that animals suffered before the fall.They were all vegetarians,…(we all were)…
Genesis 1:29
Suffering came into the world AFTER Adam and Eve defied God.:crutches:

 

[Smber2c]

This might seem highly callous to some (and I have no intention to offend), but I feel it’s because ‘their pain doesn’t matter’. Sure what we do to them matters. And what God does to them matters. But, when God allowed them to precieve pain…does that matter?

There is an assumption that many have that I would ask them to examine, the assumption that “pain is evil”.

Doesn’t pain tell us water is too hot, or that certain gravel is to rough and will cut up our feet if we walk on it. Pain there protects us from burns or slashed up feet.

Even on a cellular level, when we run and start building up a oxygen deficit, it hurts…and good thing it does or we might keep going longer than we should then suddenly fall over and die when our heart stops from having no O2 left to function.

I think the fall may have introduced sickness, but I strongly doubt their biology was so different pre-original sin that there was no lactic acid build up and all animals could run forever. Or for that matter not needing O2 to stay alive and thus being able to have deer at the bottom of lakes and oceans.

No, I think pain may be necessary for the proper funcion of a physical reality. It tells us then we are somehow damaging our bodies, and unless everything pre-fall was made of titanium, problems like cuts, bruises, dehydration, breaking bones, drowning, etc…were potential problems.

The answer I offer to “why animals suffer” is that it’s because that is the only way to keep them from accidentally killing themselves.

 

[That_one_guy]

This might seem highly callous to some (and I have no intention to offend), but I feel it’s because ‘their pain doesn’t matter’. Sure what we do to them matters. And what God does to them matters. But, when God allowed them to precieve pain…does that matter?

There is an assumption that many have that I would ask them to examine, the assumption that “pain is evil”.

Doesn’t pain tell us water is too hot, or that certain gravel is to rough and will cut up our feet if we walk on it. Pain there protects us from burns or slashed up feet.

Even on a cellular level, when we run and start building up a oxygen deficit, it hurts…and good thing it does or we might keep going longer than we should then suddenly fall over and die when our heart stops from having no O2 left to function.

I think the fall may have introduced sickness, but I strongly doubt their biology was so different pre-original sin that there was no lactic acid build up and all animals could run forever. Or for that matter not needing O2 to stay alive and thus being able to have deer at the bottom of lakes and oceans.

No, I think pain may be necessary for the proper funcion of a physical reality. It tells us then we are somehow damaging our bodies, and unless everything pre-fall was made of titanium, problems like cuts, bruises, dehydration, breaking bones, drowning, etc…were potential problems.

The answer I offer to “why animals suffer” is that it’s because that is the only way to keep them from accidentally killing themselves.

Interesting comparison. I would be inclined to see pain and suffering as two separate experiences.Pain being the body’s way of indicating that the body has been damaged somehow.
Suffering that the spirit has been injured somehow.
For instance,the cute little puppy that little Billy got for Christmas last year is now the dog that sits in the cold backyard while Billy unwraps this years presents as mom and dad yell at Bosco to stop that infernal barking.(BTW-my name is Bill,…and Bosco is my dog).
I’m trying to remain on the topic here.But, humans suffer as well.The suffering resulting from the pain.But, I don’t think that all suffering is a direct result of bodily injury.Christ suffered greatly for all of us.Mary still suffers for us as she prays for us.
I’m not real sure but, I think suffering implies a sort of empathy for others.Such as when Jesus said ‘allow the little children to come to me’,…in some translations it says 'suffer the little children.
I am inclined towards compassion for animals.Sts Francis and Jerome are my role models (next to Jesus, of course).I try to be compassionate towards humanity.But, I must admit that I find most humans to be quite cruel and selfish.(which is no way to imply that I am a super-empath).
Animals suffer because we hurt them. period.God allows it to happen because he allows humans to be cruel.

 

[survive]

I distinguish good pain from bad pain. We’ve all had good pain – the kind that teaches us the way our bodies work. Hold your breath awhile and the pain will tell you it’s time to breathe, and you will. Good pain can even feel good, like the crack in your stiff muscles when you stretch them.
Bad pain is pain that goes on longer or hurts more than it would take to get you to move away from danger, or pain you can’t do anything about that goes on and on.
Before the Fall, I assume we felt pain such as “That was a stick. Don’t step on sticks.” But not the pain of gum abcesses and such. Even the warning-pain we had was probably fast-fading because injuries were fast-healing. Animals must have had the same benefit. Of course animals and microbes got sick and died. But they probably went fast.
We altered the universe by pushing God further away from us. It affected us most, animals second-most, plants third-most, then the earth itself, then the rest of the universe in tiny and fading ripples – all creation. That’s how it sounds to me.

 

[Smber2c]

Animals suffer because we hurt them. period.God allows it to happen because he allows humans to be cruel.

I’m not sure on this last part. By that line of thought, the Americas were some sort of animal Mecca before humans crossed the bearing straight (or however we first arrived).

Do animals or nature not also hurt animals?

Maybe I need more illustrations of your point, I don’t really get much a grasp of it from parents yelling at a dog to be quiet. From the dog’s perspective they may as well be yelling “Encore!”

 

[Smber2c]

I distinguish good pain from bad pain. We’ve all had good pain – the kind that teaches us the way our bodies work. Hold your breath awhile and the pain will tell you it’s time to breathe, and you will. Good pain can even feel good, like the crack in your stiff muscles when you stretch them.
Bad pain is pain that goes on longer or hurts more than it would take to get you to move away from danger, or pain you can’t do anything about that goes on and on.
Before the Fall, I assume we felt pain such as “That was a stick. Don’t step on sticks.” But not the pain of gum abcesses and such. Even the warning-pain we had was probably fast-fading because injuries were fast-healing. Animals must have had the same benefit. Of course animals and microbes got sick and died. But they probably went fast.
We altered the universe by pushing God further away from us. It affected us most, animals second-most, plants third-most, then the earth itself, then the rest of the universe in tiny and fading ripples – all creation. That’s how it sounds to me.

An intersting concept, thought I suspect that the magnitude and duration of pain is often helpful in the same ways that the “immediate danger” pain is helpful.

Break a bone, and it will be painful to use until it heals. It tells a dog stop walking on this leg so it can get fixed.

Really burn you hand in a fire, and it hurts for a while - thus a deeper impression telling you to be careful with fire. So, the longer duration of pail could be expained as good because it allows more time for that lesson to burn into our memory.

 

[That_one_guy]

I’m not sure on this last part. By that line of thought, the Americas were some sort of animal Mecca before humans crossed the bearing straight (or however we first arrived).

Do animals or nature not also hurt animals?

Maybe I need more illustrations of your point, I don’t really get much a grasp of it from parents yelling at a dog to be quiet. From the dog’s perspective they may as well be yelling “Encore!”

:crutches:
ouch! But, touche!
I’m trying to distinguish between pain and suffering.
There is suffering of animals that may not be the direct result of human cruelty.Like,perhaps, a raccoon gets stuck in a tree between two limbs and starves to death or something:shrug: .
I don’t believe there was suffering before the fall.As I understand it, suffering entered into the world as a direct result of Adam and Eves disobedience.So,perhaps humans are still indirectly responsible for the suffering in this case…

 

[redhen]

From New Advent:

The nature and degree of pain in lower animals is very obscure, and in the necessary absence of data it is difficult to say weather it should rightly be classed with the merely formal evil which belongs to inanimate objects, or with the suffering of human beings…Thus it has often been supposed that animal suffering, together with many of the imperfections of inanimate nature, was due to the fall of man, with whose welfare, as the chief part of creation, were bound up the fortunes of the rest…The opposite view is taken by St. Thomas (I, Q. xcvi, a. 1,2). Descartes supposed that animals were merely machines, without sensation or consciousness; he was closely followed by Malebranche and Cartesians generally. Leibniz grants sensation to animals, but considers that mere sense-perception, unaccompanied by reflexion, cannot cause either pain or pleasure;

I’m pretty sure any organism with a nervous system would feel pain.

I raised this issue a while ago, regarding nature “red in tooth and claw”.

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