Why do animals suffer?

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"Descartes supposed that animals were merely machines, without sensation or consciousness; he was closely followed by Malebranche and Cartesians generally. Leibniz grants sensation to animals, but considers that mere sense-perception, unaccompanied by reflexion, cannot cause either pain or pleasure; in any case he holds the pain and pleasure of animals to be parable in degree to those resulting from reflex action in man"

What a complete and horrible belief!! Just by having three dogs, raising them since 5 weeks old, I know animals have emotions and feelings, even personalities. Science says the same. Feelings come from the mind, not merely “spiritual.”
 
redhen said:
That didn’t help, all the arguments are weak at best.

There is a new field call “Animal Theology”. Go ahead and Google it.

Here’s a Catholic perspective;
all-creatures.org/ca/links.html

Andrew Linzey and Jay McDaniel are the pioneers in this field.
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Yeah.I checked it out long ago…
I thought the thread was about suffering, but everybody is talking about pain.Which, of course leads to suffering.Sometimes.
So,I don’t know what to tell you.I guess I’m just not qualified.🤷
 
That_one_guy said:
Yeah.I checked it out long ago…
I thought the thread was about suffering, but everybody is talking about pain.Which, of course leads to suffering.Sometimes.
So,I don’t know what to tell you.I guess I’m just not qualified.🤷
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What do you mean by suffering then? Mental anguish, loneliness, grief?

I once watched a documentary People of the Forest: The Chimps of Gombe

whozoo.org/AnlifeSS2001/serishoo/Are%20Chimpanzees%20Capable%20of.htm
One recorded incident of chimpanzees exhibiting a human-like emotion is by Laura Tangley of U.S. News magazine. She tells of how chimpanzees suffer from grief: “In Tanzania, primatologists studying chimpanzee behavior record the death of Flo, a troop’s 50-year-old matriarch. Throughout the following day, Flo’s son, Flint, sits beside his mother’s lifeless body, occasionally taking her hand and whimpering. Over the next few weeks, Flint grows increasingly listless, withdrawing from the troop – despite his siblings’ efforts to bring him back – and refusing food. Three weeks after Flo’s death, the formerly healthy young chimp is dead, too.”
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In other words, he died of a broken heart.

See also;
pcrm.org/magazine/gm08summer/chimps.html
 
redhen said:
What do you mean by suffering then? Mental anguish, loneliness, grief?

I once watched a documentary People of the Forest: The Chimps of Gombe

whozoo.org/AnlifeSS2001/serishoo/Are%20Chimpanzees%20Capable%20of.htm

In other words, he died of a broken heart.

See also;
pcrm.org/magazine/gm08summer/chimps.html
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I can tell quite an amazing story about a dog having such emotion were I not pressed for time, maybe later. Over all, animals are not machines, they have feelings too, just like us. They may not be able to understand our every word in speech, but they understand when we are angry, sad, happy, sick, etc. And attempt to be with us during those times (I’m thinking mostly of dogs at this time)_Only difference, animals were not created in God’s image.
 
FindTruth7 said:
I can tell quite an amazing story about a dog having such emotion were I not pressed for time, maybe later. Over all, animals are not machines, they have feelings too, just like us. They may not be able to understand our every word in speech, but they understand when we are angry, sad, happy, sick, etc. And attempt to be with us during those times (I’m thinking mostly of dogs at this time)_Only difference, animals were not created in God’s image.
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Of course, this applies to the animals you guys eat, too!
 
That_one_guy said:
Of course, this applies to the animals you guys eat, too!
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Absolutely, and this is where cognitive dissonance comes in.

right out of Wiki:
Dissonance normally occurs when a person perceives a logical inconsistency among his or her cognitions. This happens when one idea implies the opposite of another. For example, a belief in animal rights could be interpreted as inconsistent with eating meat or wearing fur. Noticing the contradiction would lead to dissonance, which could be experienced as anxiety, guilt, shame, anger, embarrassment, stress, and other negative emotional states.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
 
That_one_guy said:
:crutches:
ouch! But, touche!
I’m trying to distinguish between pain and suffering.
There is suffering of animals that may not be the direct result of human cruelty.Like,perhaps, a raccoon gets stuck in a tree between two limbs and starves to death or something:shrug: .
I don’t believe there was suffering before the fall.As I understand it, suffering entered into the world as a direct result of Adam and Eves disobedience.So,perhaps humans are still indirectly responsible for the suffering in this case…
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“suffering entered into the world as a direct result of Adam and Eves disobedience”.

If you read the OT especially Genesis, it is clear that all God’s creatures were first created to eat of the vegetation and not of each other. When God created all the animals and creatures He was well pleased and blessed them declaring their goodness. As you say here, the fall of Adam and Eve lead to many ill ways including that of carnivorous behavior. Going a step further, in Revelations, it is revealed that it will become all creatures lying side by side in harmony again.

With that consideration in mind, how would we explain the state of the earth and its inhabitants that He has left to us as His custodians?
 
That_one_guy said:
There is no place in the Bible where it says that animals suffered before the fall.They were all vegetarians,…(we all were)…
Genesis 1:29
Suffering came into the world AFTER Adam and Eve defied God.:crutches:
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👍 :yup:
 
twb1621 said:
“suffering entered into the world as a direct result of Adam and Eves disobedience”.

If you read the OT especially Genesis, it is clear that all God’s creatures were first created to eat of the vegetation and not of each other. When God created all the animals and creatures He was well pleased and blessed them declaring their goodness. As you say here, the fall of Adam and Eve lead to many ill ways including that of carnivorous behavior. Going a step further, in Revelations, it is revealed that it will become all creatures lying side by side in harmony again.

With that consideration in mind, how would we explain the state of the earth and its inhabitants that He has left to us as His custodians?
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👍 :yup: :clapping:
 
God is timeless. The effects of Adam’s sin can be transmitted forward and backward.
 
buffalo said:
God is timeless. The effects of Adam’s sin can be transmitted forward and backward.
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Adam and Eve are not timeless though and the time of all salvation has not come as of yet. So I am not sure what your point here is.
 
twb1621 said:
Adam and Eve are not timeless though and the time of all salvation has not come as of yet. So I am not sure what your point here is.
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God transcends time. It is like God knowing you were going to pray before you did.

God as the observer of our universe sees it all at once. Therefore animals dying before the fall is not dependent on how we experience time. Even if they died before the fall, they died because of it.
 
buffalo said:
God transcends time. It is like God knowing you were going to pray before you did.

God as the observer of our universe sees it all at once. Therefore animals dying before the fall is not dependent on how we experience time. Even if they died before the fall, they died because of it.
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I’ll accept that.Very insightful.👍
 
buffalo said:
God transcends time. It is like God knowing you were going to pray before you did.

God as the observer of our universe sees it all at once. Therefore animals dying before the fall is not dependent on how we experience time. Even if they died before the fall, they died because of it.
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Oh, I get you…
 
buffalo said:
God is timeless. The effects of Adam’s sin can be transmitted forward and backward.
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I understand that God is timeless, but I think there you would run into come events causing themselves using the rational that “an action I do today, God may make effect yesterday”.

Suppose that I decide to sit and say a prayer for St. Thomas. I pray that God gives him the grace back in his lifetime to remain faithful and have incredible inspiration in theological matters. And suppose God who is timeless then gives this grace to Thomas…which makes him the Saint he was and thus I’m able to even know who he was…problem? If I didn’t make the prayer, I’d never have heard of this fellow, then I’d have no reason to make the prayer…etc…

Maybe that isn’t a problem, but it seems like one on some level. Similarly, Adam and Eve’s original sin causing suffering before they did it…well then why didn’t Christ’s salvation also extend before He died and ressurected?

Maybe God could work that way, but I’d lean toward saying He does not.
 
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