B
Beggbe
Guest
To get a good laugh. That’s about it.
- Status
H
humble_maid
Guest
You think that in the great expanses of the universes that has yet to still be discovered and uncovered, that we are the only intelligent species that naturally occurred and exist? By the way what do you mean by Natural? Even natural suggests something is happening by way of manipulation (a force).
Remember that we are but a grain of sand in the universe. That is how small we are; almost insignificant if not at all: yet man seeks to invoke his own intelligence as supreme and still we remain divided. All man’s logic is for nothing. Only the Creator is omniscient.
A
AnotherAtheist
Guest
I have no such delusion that we have or will ever discover the entire universe. Which by the way according to current theory may consist of multiple universes. I also highly doubt that we are the only intelligent species that has evolved. Even if the universe is full of intelligent species time and distance may conspire to keep us from ever knowing if there is or not. In the mean time I see nothing that suggests that any manipulation has taken place and to date no theist has provided even a shred of evidence to support the hypothesis that something has.
HappyRevert mentions the ordered way in which galaxies and solar systems move as evidence of divine intervention. Well I say science has a pretty good working theory as to how and why solar systems form and move. According to science the driving force is gravity not god. As far as galaxies go the facts about exactly how that process works are a little fuzzier but the basic principle appears to be the same. Even if it turns out be somehow different than what we currently believe the really great thing about science is that as new data becomes available science can and does change the theories that explain the way things work. The default position with religion seems to be science doesn’t have all the answers therefore the only possible explanation is god did it.
HappyRevert also talks about how natural selection should be random due to entropy. I’m sorry but that just displays an ignorance of the science. Natural selection has nothing to do with entropy and is in no way random. It is the mutations that bring about physical changes that are random. Natural selection then favors the mutations that provide a competitive advantage in a given environment for survival. Those organisms with a competitive advantage survive and pass those advantages on to the next generation. That’s not random at all it’s ordered and it did not require the hand of god to make it that way.
No agnostic, atheist or humanist I have ever met or spoken to has ever asserted that the intelligence of humans is supreme. We don’t believe that we were created in god’s image or that we are supreme anything. That is a theistic position. Most of us believe we are just hairless apes that evolution has made a little smarter than the chimpanzees.
J
josie_L
Guest
Well, my hairless (or maybe not so hairless) ape who’s a little smarter than a chimpanzee, God bless you.
L
lil_flower_luv
Guest
Well, my hairless (or maybe not so hairless) ape who’s a little smarter than a chimpanzee, God bless you.
H
HappyRevert
Guest
- I’m not trying to say that evolution is random. I’m saying if you believe that there is no ordering force - something that favors order (that’s your proposition not mine). Evolution doesn’t really make sense. Something causes or favors order.
- You put the cart before the horse when you said I was talking about God. I didn’t mention a deity, just pointed out that there is something that is so obvious it is easy to ignore. The very existence of our universe (the one we can see, touch and experiment with) shows that there is a force that favors order and creation. I really can’t see how you can get around that.
- When you said I am saying galaxies are showing proof of a Deity you make it sound like I am saying gravity doesn’t exist or don’t acknowledge how it works. I understand the science (and using a forum such as this it is easy to get the words wrong because I can’t read your body language etc to make sure I’m being understood), but I am trying to point out that unless you are intentionally trying to deny all of the scientific information that we have, you must concede that there is an ordering and creative force to our universe.
Y
yankee_doodle
Guest
see the following post:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5693864&postcount=469
Your argument is one purely from incredulity (which is classic logical fallacy).
L
lil_flower_luv
Guest
:tsktsk: You mustn’t rely on information from wikipedia.
That’s just common sense.
Y
yankee_doodle
Guest
is that the substance of your rebuttal? BTW I also follow the footnotes (and I did cite a central source they rely on). If you also read the CSI article I cite, they in turn provide excellent sources for their claims (and footnotes).
With regard to Abiogenesis I did only cite a Wiki article, but of course I only wrote one sentence on Abiogenesis (and acknowledge it’s a developing field that is most theoretical at this point). In other words it wasn’t relevant to my central point.
Hence attacking the credibility of that Wiki article is a red herring.
J
josie_L
Guest
Albeit this is not necessarily in line with the thread, I couldn’t resist posting it all the same. It’s about the near death experience (NDE) of a man by the name of Don Brubaker, please read:
"NDEs support Einstein’s theory of time travel
Albert Einstein’s theory of relativity allows for the possibility of time travel. During a NDE, some people have reported traveling back in time and some have reported traveling into the future.
(a) I see myself in the midst of a huge crowd. It’s not a modern crowd. They are dressed in the clothes of Bible times … I watch in horror as Jesus is nailed to the cross. (Don Brubaker)" near-death.com/experiences/research08.html
Here’s the story to Don Brubaker’s NDE,
Don Brubaker led a relatively normal life; happily married with three children and a busy broadcasting career, he rarely questioned life and death. After his heart attack and near-death experience, however, everything changed.
Don Brubaker was clinically dead for 45 minutes. During this time he experienced the glory of heaven - and he also journeyed into hell. This is the true story of one man’s journey into the afterlife.
What follows is an excerpt from his book, Absent From The Body. You will find his near-death experience to be unique among other near-death experiences because of the fact that he actually travels through time to experience one of history’s greatest moments.
There was a sudden whoosh, and I saw a large glowing red ball approaching me, almost like the light on the front of a train. In that instant, as the red ball rushed toward me, I knew terror like never before. As it approached, I realized that it was really a large, eerie red eye. It stopped when it got close to me, and then began traveling alongside me through the tunnel. I could hardly stand to look at it, its gaze was so piercing. It felt like it was looking right into my mind, into my very soul.
Still I was plunging into the depths of this horrible tunnel. I glanced at the walls of the tunnel, walls of deep black whirring past me like video footage on fast forward. Yes, I was still there, still falling millions of miles into some terrible pit. And yet, there I was, lying deathlike on a hospital bed. I could see myself there, and it panicked me all the more.
The eye - suddenly I realized that I was seeing the hospital room through the red eye. It was absurd to me that I hadn’t realized this before - and yet I could hardly process my thoughts. It was all too bizarre.
Panic started building in my mind as it began to dawn on me where I was, suspended in this dank tube. As the red eye glowered at me, the thoughts began to arrange themselves, coalescing slowly. Suddenly, the idea was undeniable.
I was in hell.
The realization swept over me like an ocean wave, unstoppable though I tried desperately to dismiss it. Hell! I didn’t even believe in hell! And here I was? This was it?
I had only the briefest moment to react to the thought when a deep, comfortable voice echoed through the tunnel.
“Have no fear, my son,” the voice said with a certain resounding nobility, “for I am with you. I have chosen you to write about the experiences you will go through.”
It was too unreal. I had never been given to believe in “missions from God” and the like anyway. And yet here was a voice that I knew was God’s telling me I had been selected for this nightmare!
But if this is God, why is God here, in this darkness?
Again, the voice responded to my unspoken doubts.
“You’ll first experience hell,” God said evenly, with a tone of complete control, “to prove to you the reality of evil. You’ve only believed that there was goodness. You must see for yourself that hell is real. And then you can tell others about the awful reality of hell, and about the beautiful glory of heaven.”
There was a low murmuring all around me, as if I were in the midst of a huge group of grumbling people. Before me, suddenly, stood a huge black door. The air began to glow and shimmer with oppressive heat.
I watched as the door opened upon a vast, flaming oven. I felt myself drawn like a magnet into the center of the flames - although I was terrified to go in. There were hundreds of others already there, roasting to death, but not dead. Once I was inside, the door slammed shut behind me. The worst, dreadfulest feelings sloshed around inside me, like so much poison.
“Is this actually what hell is?” I asked aloud.
I passed my hands through blue-tipped flames. The fire itself was cold, and it did not hurt me. From nowhere, a thought flashed through my mind: Death, where is thy sting? God, even in the midst of this holocaust, was truly in control of everything. I began to laugh, and the others laughed with me. Our laughter bounced off the walls of the oven and echoed over the roar of the flames.
And instantly, as if someone had flipped the channel selector, I was alone again in darkness.
I sighed, wearily. I could not regulate my feelings, and now I was feeling abandoned and lonely. I longed to be with my family. I wanted to tell them how much I loved them. I needed to tell everyone how much God loved them!
“You will tell others about me, Don,” the voice of God said, out of nowhere. “That is your mission. That is why you are going through these experiences.”
I listened patiently.
to be continued . . . .
"NDEs support Einstein’s theory of time travel
Albert Einstein’s theory of relativity allows for the possibility of time travel. During a NDE, some people have reported traveling back in time and some have reported traveling into the future.
(a) I see myself in the midst of a huge crowd. It’s not a modern crowd. They are dressed in the clothes of Bible times … I watch in horror as Jesus is nailed to the cross. (Don Brubaker)" near-death.com/experiences/research08.html
Here’s the story to Don Brubaker’s NDE,
Don Brubaker led a relatively normal life; happily married with three children and a busy broadcasting career, he rarely questioned life and death. After his heart attack and near-death experience, however, everything changed.
Don Brubaker was clinically dead for 45 minutes. During this time he experienced the glory of heaven - and he also journeyed into hell. This is the true story of one man’s journey into the afterlife.
What follows is an excerpt from his book, Absent From The Body. You will find his near-death experience to be unique among other near-death experiences because of the fact that he actually travels through time to experience one of history’s greatest moments.
There was a sudden whoosh, and I saw a large glowing red ball approaching me, almost like the light on the front of a train. In that instant, as the red ball rushed toward me, I knew terror like never before. As it approached, I realized that it was really a large, eerie red eye. It stopped when it got close to me, and then began traveling alongside me through the tunnel. I could hardly stand to look at it, its gaze was so piercing. It felt like it was looking right into my mind, into my very soul.
Still I was plunging into the depths of this horrible tunnel. I glanced at the walls of the tunnel, walls of deep black whirring past me like video footage on fast forward. Yes, I was still there, still falling millions of miles into some terrible pit. And yet, there I was, lying deathlike on a hospital bed. I could see myself there, and it panicked me all the more.
The eye - suddenly I realized that I was seeing the hospital room through the red eye. It was absurd to me that I hadn’t realized this before - and yet I could hardly process my thoughts. It was all too bizarre.
Panic started building in my mind as it began to dawn on me where I was, suspended in this dank tube. As the red eye glowered at me, the thoughts began to arrange themselves, coalescing slowly. Suddenly, the idea was undeniable.
I was in hell.
The realization swept over me like an ocean wave, unstoppable though I tried desperately to dismiss it. Hell! I didn’t even believe in hell! And here I was? This was it?
I had only the briefest moment to react to the thought when a deep, comfortable voice echoed through the tunnel.
“Have no fear, my son,” the voice said with a certain resounding nobility, “for I am with you. I have chosen you to write about the experiences you will go through.”
It was too unreal. I had never been given to believe in “missions from God” and the like anyway. And yet here was a voice that I knew was God’s telling me I had been selected for this nightmare!
But if this is God, why is God here, in this darkness?
Again, the voice responded to my unspoken doubts.
“You’ll first experience hell,” God said evenly, with a tone of complete control, “to prove to you the reality of evil. You’ve only believed that there was goodness. You must see for yourself that hell is real. And then you can tell others about the awful reality of hell, and about the beautiful glory of heaven.”
There was a low murmuring all around me, as if I were in the midst of a huge group of grumbling people. Before me, suddenly, stood a huge black door. The air began to glow and shimmer with oppressive heat.
I watched as the door opened upon a vast, flaming oven. I felt myself drawn like a magnet into the center of the flames - although I was terrified to go in. There were hundreds of others already there, roasting to death, but not dead. Once I was inside, the door slammed shut behind me. The worst, dreadfulest feelings sloshed around inside me, like so much poison.
“Is this actually what hell is?” I asked aloud.
I passed my hands through blue-tipped flames. The fire itself was cold, and it did not hurt me. From nowhere, a thought flashed through my mind: Death, where is thy sting? God, even in the midst of this holocaust, was truly in control of everything. I began to laugh, and the others laughed with me. Our laughter bounced off the walls of the oven and echoed over the roar of the flames.
And instantly, as if someone had flipped the channel selector, I was alone again in darkness.
I sighed, wearily. I could not regulate my feelings, and now I was feeling abandoned and lonely. I longed to be with my family. I wanted to tell them how much I loved them. I needed to tell everyone how much God loved them!
“You will tell others about me, Don,” the voice of God said, out of nowhere. “That is your mission. That is why you are going through these experiences.”
I listened patiently.
to be continued . . . .
J
josie_L
Guest
“You must learn to love others, to have compassion and to forgive them. You must live that others may see me in you.”
In a flash, I could recall every person I had ever held a grudge against, every quarrel I had ever left unresolved.
Suddenly I am enveloped and floating in a deep, electric blue sky. It is the most amazing and beautiful blue I have ever seen. It feels velvety soft. The air seems to sparkle with purity. I am at peace, feeling restful, serene.
I perceived a light moving toward me. It is bluish white and gives off small yellow flashes and sparks at the edges, growing in intensity until it is almost too intense to look into.
And there is a figure in the middle of the light. My very being leaps in recognition that this is Jesus Christ. It’s Christ coming toward me. I gaze at his extraordinarily handsome face. The eyes are full of love and acceptance. I am immersed in a feeling of joy and hope and all good things.
Christ’s voice rings gently, like the sound of tiny, pleasant silver bells.
“Don, do you want to stay here, or do you wish to go back?”
I hesitated to answer. I am wrapped in a warm sense of love and peace. The color is such a pleasure to see and feel. And Jesus indicates no impatience.
I realize that I am grinning like a little boy getting his first puppy.
I am seeing God’s own Son. This is the Lord. This is Jesus!
Suddenly, a soft sense of sadness creeps into my thoughts. I think of my dear family. I can sense the sorrow they would feel if I were gone. I know I must go back to them, that I have work to do.
I wonder about that. It was God who gave me my mission. Why, then, if God wants me to minister to others, is Jesus offering me an opportunity to stay here in heaven?
The answer surfaced from my own thoughts. This is a test. Again, Christ speaks: “Don, do you want to stay or go back?”
“I want to go back,” I answered immediately, knowing I made the right choice.
Jesus smiles.
“You have chosen well. Go. I am with you,” Jesus says gently.
Everything changes again, as if someone has turned a page in a book. I see myself in the midst of a huge crowd. It’s not a modern crowd. They are dressed in the clothes of Bible times. I look down at myself. So am I!
The crowd seems to be jeering at me. Why? Then I see more: I help a man, someone who has been brutally whipped and abused. The crowd is upset because I am offering assistance. But the beaten man has eyes that burn with love and compassion.
How could anyone want to hurt this man? I lift the man off of the dusty road to his feet.
The man turns, and from somewhere he lifts a huge wooden cross to his back. The man begins moving toward a hill. The hill is called Golgotha. With each new moment, I realize more and more clearly what I am seeing.
These people are going to crucify Christ.
I follow, stunned, I watch in horror as Jesus is nailed to the cross, the spikes pounded through his wrists and the sensitive insteps of his feet. I watch helpless as the cross is propped up and dropped into position with an ugly thud. I cover my face with my hands.
If only others could see what I’ve seen. The world would get on its knees … The world would be at peace.
In a flash, I could recall every person I had ever held a grudge against, every quarrel I had ever left unresolved.
Suddenly I am enveloped and floating in a deep, electric blue sky. It is the most amazing and beautiful blue I have ever seen. It feels velvety soft. The air seems to sparkle with purity. I am at peace, feeling restful, serene.
I perceived a light moving toward me. It is bluish white and gives off small yellow flashes and sparks at the edges, growing in intensity until it is almost too intense to look into.
And there is a figure in the middle of the light. My very being leaps in recognition that this is Jesus Christ. It’s Christ coming toward me. I gaze at his extraordinarily handsome face. The eyes are full of love and acceptance. I am immersed in a feeling of joy and hope and all good things.
Christ’s voice rings gently, like the sound of tiny, pleasant silver bells.
“Don, do you want to stay here, or do you wish to go back?”
I hesitated to answer. I am wrapped in a warm sense of love and peace. The color is such a pleasure to see and feel. And Jesus indicates no impatience.
I realize that I am grinning like a little boy getting his first puppy.
I am seeing God’s own Son. This is the Lord. This is Jesus!
Suddenly, a soft sense of sadness creeps into my thoughts. I think of my dear family. I can sense the sorrow they would feel if I were gone. I know I must go back to them, that I have work to do.
I wonder about that. It was God who gave me my mission. Why, then, if God wants me to minister to others, is Jesus offering me an opportunity to stay here in heaven?
The answer surfaced from my own thoughts. This is a test. Again, Christ speaks: “Don, do you want to stay or go back?”
“I want to go back,” I answered immediately, knowing I made the right choice.
Jesus smiles.
“You have chosen well. Go. I am with you,” Jesus says gently.
Everything changes again, as if someone has turned a page in a book. I see myself in the midst of a huge crowd. It’s not a modern crowd. They are dressed in the clothes of Bible times. I look down at myself. So am I!
The crowd seems to be jeering at me. Why? Then I see more: I help a man, someone who has been brutally whipped and abused. The crowd is upset because I am offering assistance. But the beaten man has eyes that burn with love and compassion.
How could anyone want to hurt this man? I lift the man off of the dusty road to his feet.
The man turns, and from somewhere he lifts a huge wooden cross to his back. The man begins moving toward a hill. The hill is called Golgotha. With each new moment, I realize more and more clearly what I am seeing.
These people are going to crucify Christ.
I follow, stunned, I watch in horror as Jesus is nailed to the cross, the spikes pounded through his wrists and the sensitive insteps of his feet. I watch helpless as the cross is propped up and dropped into position with an ugly thud. I cover my face with my hands.
If only others could see what I’ve seen. The world would get on its knees … The world would be at peace.
Y
yankee_doodle
Guest
wow, with everything else debunked, we’ve come to near death experiences (get ready all … haunted houses are next) 
J
josie_L
Guest
Consciousness does survive after death, please read the link provided in my post, it has all the information needed pertaining to this subject.wow, with everything else debunked, we’ve come to near death experiences (get ready all … haunted houses are next)
A
AnotherAtheist
Guest
I don’t know what in heck you are talking about. You said:
I replied:
You said:
Which is NOT what I said so I replied again:
And you are still trying to put words in my mouth. Are you slow? Please stop saying I said things I did not. Order where there should be none is a theistic position. Why can’t you get it through your think head that is not what I believe and I never said I did.
Your beautifully ordered evidence is not evidence at all. It is an argument from ignorance. You do not understand it therefore god did it.
A
AnotherAtheist
Guest
Don’t worry josie. You are a hairless ape too whether or not you want to admit it. In your case however I’m less convinced about which one is smarter.Well, my hairless (or maybe not so hairless) ape who’s a little smarter than a chimpanzee, God bless you.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human
J
josie_L
Guest
That’s where you and I differ AnotherAtheist, I don’t think I’ve just evolved from apes, but that I was created in God’s image, i.e., I have a mind, with a soul and a body, something far different than the hairless ape who’s only a little smarter than a chimpanzee.
p.s. You realize I was only teasing you.
H
humble_maid
Guest
So some atomic cell as mutated to make us look better and be smarter than apes? Weird. Prove it.
note:Humble maid’s responses are in blue.
H
HappyRevert
Guest
Since you’ve degenerated into name calling I think I’ll just stop talking to you.
A
AnotherAtheist
Guest
And your only evidence to support your position is your faith. You have nothing else. Somebody told you it is true and you accept it without question. On the other hand there is a literal plethora of evidence to support the fact that you did evolve in parallel with the chimpanzee from a common ancestor. Genetic evidence and the fossil record to name just two. You however choose to deny the physical evidence in favor of believing the stories created by people more than a thousand years ago that had no clue about modern science. You might as well believe the Greek or Hindu creation stories. The chances that they are correct are exactly the same as the chances that Christians are.
J
josie_L
Guest
Did I deny this? Furthermore, there is evidence that our consciousness does survive death, so although I have faith I also have science to help solidify my beliefs.
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