Why do Baptists say Catholics are not Christians?

[joe370]

Two things here. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and I identify Catholics as Christians. You might want to change that to “Some Southern Baptists don’t think Catholics are Christian.”

Secondly, that list, are you serious? While I had heard that you didn’t baptize properly and that you were suspected of being idolaters, I did not hear that much, from Baptists, about Catholics. None of this was “taught” as in formal training or family training. Maybe it’s done differently elsewhere but those were not part of my experience.

Well, that’s nice to hear. Of course you do not believe the CC is guilty of being idolaters - right?

 

[Brandall]

Well, that’s nice to hear. Of course you do not believe the CC is guilty of being idolaters - right?

No I don’t but thanks for asking. I’ve been doing my own investigating to better understand the Catholic Church.

 

[joe370]

No I don’t but thanks for asking. I’ve been doing my own investigating to better understand the Catholic Church.

Cool. That’s how it all started for me long ago, as a former non-Catholic.

 

[Hat4]

As with most Protestant sects I don’t think you can even lump together the ones that belong to the same denomination. I had a Baptist friend that was telling me how to be saved. Thinking I was being polite and making conversation I told him my grandfather was Baptist so he asked me what branch. When I told him he let me know he wasn’t a real Baptist and was going to hell. I also have a friend at work who is Baptist. We have very similar views, a good deal of mutual respect and get along great even when we discuss religion. You never really know what you’re going to get when you hear someone’s Baptist I’ve found.

 

[Hat4]

are catholic christians ?? are they saved?

No one can judge a Roman Catholic’s heart, but God.

However, if the Roman Catholic follows the official position of the Roman Catholic Church which teaches that justification is by works,

then such a person is lost.

The Bible teaches that justification is by faith alone (Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9).

youtu.be/f8abGONvwv4

I notice that you state you are Catholic. You also state that the Catholic church teaches that justification is by works. I can understand that you’ve been lied to and didn’t bother to check it out for yourself but I’m having a hard time believing they also talked you into thinking that you’re Catholic. Bless you and enjoy your time on CAF.

 

[Cat]

Some very good points. One question though your post brings, and I know this is off-topic, but why is it that more Catholics don’t sing at all during Mass? That is a puzzling difference between the Catholic experience most places and the non-denominational mega-church experience down the road. I sing, have had some serious years of training yes, but still I sing out, and even my four year old daughter sings loudly now (sweet but with the complete tone-deafness only a four year old can muster!) and people around us laugh at her cuteness but are almost silent themselves…

You’re right, this is off-topic, and there have been other threads, and hopefully, there will be more threads on this excellent question.

I think the best explanation for why Catholics don’t sing during the Mass comes from an old friend of mine, who is in her 70s, and who was raised in Detroit (very Catholic) with the Latin Mass. She said that in the Latin Mass, the nuns shushed the children from singing, and that singing with a full voice was never appropriate for the congregation during the Latin Mass. In other words, she and millions of other Catholics were taught NOT to sing during the Mass.

The Latin Mass was the only Mass for many centuries. So what I think we’re up against here is hundreds of years (or more) of tradition (small “t”) that created a culture in which Catholics do not sing in the Mass unless they are the men in the schola (chant choir).

And I think that there are many Catholics who, as a side-effect of that teaching and practice, consider full-voiced congregational singing a “Protestant” practice, and therefore not appropriate for Catholics.

I think the second-best explanation for why Catholics don’t sing during the Mass is that for the last several decades, music education in many schools, especially public, has been abysmal, and we have managed to raised at least one and probably two generations of adults who truly do not know how to sing. I’m not talking about reading music, I’m talking about knowing how to do the physical things that produce singing. So of course Catholics don’t sing in Mass–they honestly don’t know how and it hurts them or is physically uncomfortable for them.

And things will get worse, as music education takes even more cuts in schools.

OTOH, many Protestants DO sing in their worship services, and sing heartily. But I think this might happen because Protestant churches, unlike Catholic churches, have practiced a “culture of congregational singing” for as long as they have existed (a little over 500 years for the oldest, and sometimes only months for the newest denominations). So the people in these Protestant churches learn to sing during their Sunday school classes, VBS, children’s clubs, etc. And I think a lot of Protestant parents sing with their children at home–I know I did! My girls learned hymns by heart by the time they were three years old!

However, in the last few decades that my husband and I were Protestant, we noticed a trend towards not singing during congregational singing. One of our pastors blamed this on the rise of “popular” Christian celeb singers, not just rock, but all genres of music. He said that Christians are becoming a “Culture of Spectators” when it comes to singing. Rather than singing and making music ourselves, we leave it to the “professionals” and just sit back and listen.

And I think that this “culture of spectators” mentality has slopped over onto Catholics that would probably be able to sing, but prefer to just sit and listen.

I think this “culture of spectators” has been made even more prevalent by shows like “American Idol.” People watch the “screening shows” during which all the “bad” singers are told to “stop singing.” And of course, they project that advice onto themselves. They think, “I sing just like that rejected person, or even worse! I should never sing again!” And later on in the show, when the Top Ten come along, and a different (good) singer is voted off every week, they continue to think, “Wow, if that person gets voted off, I must sound like a frog! I will never sing again!”

Over and over on CAF, I have seen Catholics post comments like, “I love to sing, but because I’m so bad at it, I don’t sing during the Mass. It wouldn’t be charitable of me.”

This is so sad. So so sad. What have we become, that we are concerned that others will judge us because we don’t have American Idol Top Ten potential?

God gave us each our voices, and it is not up to us to disparage what He has given to us or to our fellow Christians.

I personally think that we have to get over all of these reasons for not singing during Mass, at least, during the OF of the Mass. Mass is not American Idol tryouts, or a concert, or a recital. It’s the Mass. The rubrics of the OF Mass call for “congregational singing” and those who are interested in liturgical purity and correctness should adhere to those rubrics and SING.

In the Early Church, which was Catholic, Catholics sang together. We need to get back to that.

 

[Blacksword]

You’re right, this is off-topic, and there have been other threads, and hopefully, there will be more threads on this excellent question.

I think the best explanation for why Catholics don’t sing during the Mass comes from an old friend of mine, who is in her 70s, and who was raised in Detroit (very Catholic) with the Latin Mass. She said that in the Latin Mass, the nuns shushed the children from singing, and that singing with a full voice was never appropriate for the congregation during the Latin Mass. In other words, she and millions of other Catholics were taught NOT to sing during the Mass.

The Latin Mass was the only Mass for many centuries. So what I think we’re up against here is hundreds of years (or more) of tradition (small “t”) that created a culture in which Catholics do not sing in the Mass unless they are the men in the schola (chant choir).

And I think that there are many Catholics who, as a side-effect of that teaching and practice, consider full-voiced congregational singing a “Protestant” practice, and therefore not appropriate for Catholics.

I think the second-best explanation for why Catholics don’t sing during the Mass is that for the last several decades, music education in many schools, especially public, has been abysmal, and we have managed to raised at least one and probably two generations of adults who truly do not know how to sing. I’m not talking about reading music, I’m talking about knowing how to do the physical things that produce singing. So of course Catholics don’t sing in Mass–they honestly don’t know how and it hurts them or is physically uncomfortable for them.

And things will get worse, as music education takes even more cuts in schools.

OTOH, many Protestants DO sing in their worship services, and sing heartily. But I think this might happen because Protestant churches, unlike Catholic churches, have practiced a “culture of congregational singing” for as long as they have existed (a little over 500 years for the oldest, and sometimes only months for the newest denominations). So the people in these Protestant churches learn to sing during their Sunday school classes, VBS, children’s clubs, etc. And I think a lot of Protestant parents sing with their children at home–I know I did! My girls learned hymns by heart by the time they were three years old!

However, in the last few decades that my husband and I were Protestant, we noticed a trend towards not singing during congregational singing. One of our pastors blamed this on the rise of “popular” Christian celeb singers, not just rock, but all genres of music. He said that Christians are becoming a “Culture of Spectators” when it comes to singing. Rather than singing and making music ourselves, we leave it to the “professionals” and just sit back and listen.

And I think that this “culture of spectators” mentality has slopped over onto Catholics that would probably be able to sing, but prefer to just sit and listen.

I think this “culture of spectators” has been made even more prevalent by shows like “American Idol.” People watch the “screening shows” during which all the “bad” singers are told to “stop singing.” And of course, they project that advice onto themselves. They think, “I sing just like that rejected person, or even worse! I should never sing again!” And later on in the show, when the Top Ten come along, and a different (good) singer is voted off every week, they continue to think, “Wow, if that person gets voted off, I must sound like a frog! I will never sing again!”

Over and over on CAF, I have seen Catholics post comments like, “I love to sing, but because I’m so bad at it, I don’t sing during the Mass. It wouldn’t be charitable of me.”

This is so sad. So so sad. What have we become, that we are concerned that others will judge us because we don’t have American Idol Top Ten potential?

God gave us each our voices, and it is not up to us to disparage what He has given to us or to our fellow Christians.

I personally think that we have to get over all of these reasons for not singing during Mass, at least, during the OF of the Mass. Mass is not American Idol tryouts, or a concert, or a recital. It’s the Mass. The rubrics of the OF Mass call for “congregational singing” and those who are interested in liturgical purity and correctness should adhere to those rubrics and SING.

In the Early Church, which was Catholic, Catholics sang together. We need to get back to that.

Fascinating, thank you! And a hearty Amen to your last comment!

 

[Blacksword]

are catholic christians ?? are they saved?

No one can judge a Roman Catholic’s heart, but God.

However, if the Roman Catholic follows the official position of the Roman Catholic Church which teaches that justification is by works,

then such a person is lost.

The Bible teaches that justification is by faith alone (Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9).

youtu.be/f8abGONvwv4

Um, no. Catholic teaching is not salvation by works, and the Bible does NOT teach faith ALONE for salvation. You are Catholic?!

 

[Brandall]

Some very good points. One question though your post brings, and I know this is off-topic, but why is it that more Catholics don’t sing at all during Mass? That is a puzzling difference between the Catholic experience most places and the non-denominational mega-church experience down the road. I sing, have had some serious years of training yes, but still I sing out, and even my four year old daughter sings loudly now (sweet but with the complete tone-deafness only a four year old can muster!) and people around us laugh at her cuteness but are almost silent themselves…

You’re right, this is off-topic, and there have been other threads, and hopefully, there will be more threads on this excellent question.

I think the best explanation for why Catholics don’t sing during the Mass comes from an old friend of mine, who is in her 70s, and who was raised in Detroit (very Catholic) with the Latin Mass. She said that in the Latin Mass, the nuns shushed the children from singing, and that singing with a full voice was never appropriate for the congregation during the Latin Mass. In other words, she and millions of other Catholics were taught NOT to sing during the Mass.

In the Early Church, which was Catholic, Catholics sang together. We need to get back to that.

Cat, hope you don’t mind me cutting your quote but I think I left enough for understanding.

It hasn’t been that long that I’ve been attending a Catholic Church and I have been frustrated by the lack of singing. Unlike Blacksword, I don’t have years of training and probably sound more like the four year old. However, I love to sing and sing I will. I guess being raised in the Baptist church made me that way.

Blacksword mentions the “mega churches”. My wife is a member of one of those and I’m more frustrated with them. The music from their professional musicians is so loud that it’s disorienting and they change the rhythms of the original songs making it more than difficult to sing along. Why would anyone change the rhythm of a well known Christmas Carole by adding synchronizations that the congregation can’t follow?

Anyway, I sing loudly and proudly off key during the mass. No one has complained but I have seen some snickers.

 

[speakttruth]

Drives me crazy too, I wanna tear my hair out! :sad_yes: They followed with this statement “I’m a follower of Christ”.

I agree. How can they call themselves Christians, when they have been PROTEST- ANTS of the Catholic Teachings? They are not followers of Christ, but followers of the Lutheran and whatever they call the remaining because they broke away from Christ’s church. Christ established one church, not churches, so who was there for 1500 years before the Protesting happened? The Catholic Church. They must called Jesus a liar then because he wouldn’t leave his church with error for 1500 years that he promised not to. They shouldn’t call it the reformation, because the Catholic church itself was trying to reform some things that were bad. We were in reformation for our own problems and still are. Instead of helping with that they took the bath water out with the baby when they left. The protestants didn’t reform anything because they all split up to all different churches and opinions which is why they are called protest- ants. There are over 33,000 different Protestant churches, protesting with each other. Who is right among them?
None, because there is only one Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that stands firm in the truth for 2000 years. The one truth faith. The gates of hell will not prevail on our Church, promises our Lord.
GB

 

[Brandall]

I agree. How can they call themselves Christians, when they have been PROTEST- ANTS of the Catholic Teachings? They are not followers of Christ, but followers of the Lutheran and whatever they call the remaining because they broke away from Christ’s church. Christ established one church, not churches, so who was there for 1500 years before the Protesting happened? The Catholic Church. They must called Jesus a liar then because he wouldn’t leave his church with error for 1500 years that he promised not to. They shouldn’t call it the reformation, because the Catholic church itself was trying to reform some things that were bad. We were in reformation for our own problems and still are. Instead of helping with that they took the bath water out with the baby when they left. The protestants didn’t reform anything because they all split up to all different churches and opinions which is why they are called protest- ants. There are over 33,000 different Protestant churches, protesting with each other. Who is right among them?
None, because there is only one Holy Apostolic Catholic Church that stands firm in the truth for 2000 years. The one truth faith. The gates of hell will not prevail on our Church, promises our Lord.
GB

I’m guessing you aren’t on the welcoming committee for your church.

 

[Bookcat]

While the author at the mission board there demonstrated that some lack of understanding of just what the Catholic Church teaches (about it being “possible” for non -Christians to be saved…)

But in explanation of their beliefs it is to be noted that his particular Baptist community is not that “Catholics are not Christians” but that one is not a Christian in their view simply by being a Catholic …anymore than joining a Baptist community simply makes one a Christian. (I am seeking to express their view here…I am Catholic Christian …so I hold fast to the Catholic Faith)

The Baptist author states:

"First, there are genuine Christians in the Roman Catholic Church. If they truly trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior, then they are Christians and will be saved. Salvation is not dependent on being a member of an “approved” denomination.

Second, though, there are unfortunately many people in the Catholic Church who are not trusting Christ as Savior and who need to hear the gospel. This is true to some extent in all denominations (including Southern Baptists!), but it tends to be more of a widespread problem in some denominations than it is in others."

So you see that it is not their view that Catholics are not Christians per se.

One will find among their authors various misconceptions as to what we believe. I can assume that they are trying to understand and find out what we believe but that does not always happen. WE too must take care discussing what our fellow Christians believe --We too need to avoid misreading what they state…We need to understand what they hold from their understanding (even if we do not agree with everything they hold) just as their authors need to understand what we believe and rightly relate it.

Now some communities of Baptists (there are various types and many different smaller communities) may take the view that Catholics are not Christians but such is not per se a Southern Baptist view from what I read -much less the view of “all Baptists”.

 

[Blacksword]

Cat, hope you don’t mind me cutting your quote but I think I left enough for understanding.

It hasn’t been that long that I’ve been attending a Catholic Church and I have been frustrated by the lack of singing. Unlike Blacksword, I don’t have years of training and probably sound more like the four year old. However, I love to sing and sing I will. I guess being raised in the Baptist church made me that way.

Blacksword mentions the “mega churches”. My wife is a member of one of those and I’m more frustrated with them. The music from their professional musicians is so loud that it’s disorienting and they change the rhythms of the original songs making it more than difficult to sing along. Why would anyone change the rhythm of a well known Christmas Carole by adding synchronizations that the congregation can’t follow?

Anyway, I sing loudly and proudly off key during the mass. No one has complained but I have seen some snickers.

I’m glad to hear you are attending Mass, and that you are singing. Keep doing it and don’t worry about what anyone says I say! You just remember St. Augustine said “He who sings prays twice” and keep pushing on. One thing I’ve noticed is also that if one person sings out often times at least a few more around them will sing more too, like they gain courage to do so from that person. And I agree about the rock stylization of everything in many mega-church type places today. “O Come All Ye Faithful” is just not the same with a rock beat rhythm and electric guitars, yuck!. I hope you keep searching things out, no matter what, having Christ there in the Tabernacle is priceless above all the rest.

 

[Bookcat]

While the author at the mission board there demonstrated that some lack of understanding of just what the Catholic Church teaches (about it being “possible” for non -Christians to be saved…)

But in explanation of their beliefs it is to be noted that his particular Baptist community is not that “Catholics are not Christians” but that one is not a Christian in their view simply by being a Catholic …anymore than joining a Baptist community simply makes one a Christian. (I am seeking to express their view here…I am Catholic Christian …so I hold fast to the Catholic Faith)

The Baptist author states:

"First, there are genuine Christians in the Roman Catholic Church. If they truly trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior, then they are Christians and will be saved. Salvation is not dependent on being a member of an “approved” denomination.

Second, though, there are unfortunately many people in the Catholic Church who are not trusting Christ as Savior and who need to hear the gospel. This is true to some extent in all denominations (including Southern Baptists!), but it tends to be more of a widespread problem in some denominations than it is in others."

So you see that it is not their view that Catholics are not Christians per se.

One will find among their authors various misconceptions as to what we believe. I can assume that they are trying to understand and find out what we believe but that does not always happen. WE too must take care discussing what our fellow Christians believe --We too need to avoid misreading what they state…We need to understand what they hold from their understanding (even if we do not agree with everything they hold) just as their authors need to understand what we believe and rightly relate it.

Now some communities of Baptists or members of them (there are various types and many different smaller communities) may take the view that Catholics are not Christians but such is not per se a Southern Baptist view from what I read -much less the view of “all Baptists”.

 

[Porknpie]

The Protestant ban on all Alcohol not biblically grounded. Christ drank wine; the Most holy Eucharist is cinfected from Transubstantiated bread and wine.

Like Gluttony; it is the OVER consumption that is sinful

PJM,

Absolutely true. To ban alcohol, including wine is not biblical. This is man-made tradition completely of recent times.

Scriptures of note:

Genesis 27 (JACOB drank wine)
25 Then he said, “Bring it to me, that I may eat of my son’s game and bless you.” So he brought it to him, and he ate; and he brought him wine, and he drank.

Luke 7 (JESUS DRANK WINE)
33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon’; 34 the Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 Nevertheless, wisdom is vindicated by all her children.”

Lot’s of traditions out there from those who say that they don’t follow man made tradition(s)…only the bible.

 

[johnnyc176]

I’m guessing you aren’t on the welcoming committee for your church.

Why…because your judging a posters tone on a forum? He/she is speaking the truth. Hopefully he/she is teaching RCIA.

 

[Brandall]

Why…because your judging a posters tone on a forum? He/she is speaking the truth. Hopefully he/she is teaching RCIA.

I can only assume that you think prospective converts find the Catholic Chest Thumping attractive. More power to you.

 

[johnnyc176]

I can only assume that you think prospective converts find the Catholic Chest Thumping attractive. More power to you.

Assume away. I call it searching for the fullness of truth. I will give you that the truth can be polarizing.

Anyway…interesting article here as it also concerns Baptists. Interesting comments also.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=782057

 

[RileyG]

I especially don’t like it when “Catholic or Christian” is said, in place of the proper “Catholic or Protestant”.

Exactly. I know some sincerely don’t know, but when someone says “What’s the difference between Catholic and Christian?” I get slightly irritated.

 

[RileyG]

PJM,

Absolutely true. To ban alcohol, including wine is not biblical. This is man-made tradition completely of recent times.

Scriptures of note:

Genesis 27 (JACOB drank wine)
25 Then he said, “Bring it to me, that I may eat of my son’s game and bless you.” So he brought it to him, and he ate; and he brought him wine, and he drank.

Luke 7 (JESUS DRANK WINE)
33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon’; 34 the Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 Nevertheless, wisdom is vindicated by all her children.”

Lot’s of traditions out there from those who say that they don’t follow man made tradition(s)…only the bible.

Yep. I always wondered why some Protestants completely abstain from alcohol. (Or use grape juice for communion, etc)