Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory and Protestants do not?

[ralphinal]

Calvin:

My argument with Katholicos is a historical one. When Luther rejected the deuterocanonicals it wasn’t an arbitrary decision like “oh these books don’t agree with my theology so I’m gonna chuck 'em!” It was because he decided the Palestinian canon was preferable to the Alexandrian canon. All I’m trying to say is that there was a method to Luther’s madness.

Now, in fairness, there are some Protestant scholars (Fundamentalists actually) who think that Jesus may have spoken Greek. But according to Josephus, the canon that was used in Judea is not the same as the LXX. So it is important to remember that much of this is speculation. I think Luther is not WAY off base if he concluded (like many other scholars) that Jesus, Himself, used the Palestinian canon.

We have to remember (Catholic and Protestant scholars should agree with this) that there is a difference between the words spoken by Jesus and the words recorded by the Gospel writers. The Gospels are not transcripts. Katholicos and I would agree that they are Catholic documents written to a Catholic audience. And this is where it is important to note: the Catholic audience outside of Judea would have used the LXX not the Palestinian canon. So many of the quotes in the Gospels were cited in Greek to be familiar to a Greek audience.

In a similar manner, in some of my other posts I have quoted from the New American, Douay-Rheims, or Vulgate Bibles even though those are not what I use in personal devotion or study. Those are the versions I know this audience uses so I quote from them.

-C

P.S. This was like 400 years after the Babylonian exile and the Babylonians didn’t speak Greek so I’m not sure what that reference was all about.

Actually, I only feel that Luther wanted to trash one book because of Theology: James. I agree with you on the OT Books in his respect. Be careful saying that the quotes in the Gospels may have been “Greeked” for their audiance. I have no issue with that, but there are some that will, probably your fellow protestants. Overall, I think we have much common ground on this topic. As far as the Exile goes, yes the points you raise are correct, but after they returned, slowly Jews that were in places other than Babylon came home, bringing with them different languages and even customs. Couple that with the fact that the Greeks had held a good part of Palestine before the Romans, and there you have Greek spoken. IN fact, one charge against the Passion film is that Jesus and Pilot probably would have spoken in Greek as that was the dominant Language in use in that part of the Empire. I disagree because we know that Romans could have cared less what the oppressed wanted.

 

[Contarini]

:However, some believe we enter Heaven with sins forgiven, but impurity intact; only covered with bright garments (figuratively speaking I presume).:

Who believes this? Can you give me a reference? Otherwise, you are bearing false witness against your brothers and sisters in Christ, which is not a very good idea. (Sorry if that seems harsh–I’m just pointing out that making claims about what other Christians believe is a serious thing and you shouldn’t do it unless you have very solid evidence.)

: Like Martin Luther said, “Dung heaps covered in snow.” Although, I don’t know if he was referring specifically to man Heaven.:

He most certainly was not–he believed that we remain to some extent sinful as long as we are in this body but there would be no reason why he would think that we would remain sinful in heaven.

Indeed, I have yet to see solid evidence that Luther made the infamous “dung heap” remark at all. I’m not saying he didn’t–only that I don’t know where he said it and it is generally repeated without any citation. If I have seen a citation at some point I’ve forgotten. Admittedly, it sounds like the sort of thing he might say–he liked scatological metaphors and he did believe that our remaining sinfulness is not counted against us because of our union with Christ by faith.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Genuflecter]

:However, some believe we enter Heaven with sins forgiven, but impurity intact; only covered with bright garments (figuratively speaking I presume).:

Who believes this? Can you give me a reference? Otherwise, you are bearing false witness against your brothers and sisters in Christ, which is not a very good idea. (Sorry if that seems harsh–I’m just pointing out that making claims about what other Christians believe is a serious thing and you shouldn’t do it unless you have very solid evidence.)

You should know I do have Protestants friends and we do talk. I am only stating what others have taught me. I would expect that they at least know what they believe, right or wrong. You seem to be under the impression that everything every Protestants believes falls under some kind of denomination profession of faith. How could I critique what a Protestant Magisterium teaches if no such office exists?

Just some friendly advice: please don’t be so quick to be harsh.

Peace,
J

 

[jimmy]

The catholic church only has two dogmas about purgatory.

1. That it exists.
2. Prayers are good for people in purgatory.

The rest is all personal interpretation and personal beliefs of what it is.

 

[jimmy]

There are places in the bible that state that we will be judged according to our sins. This implies that there are more than two(Heaven or Hell) verdicts. If you go to Purgatory you will end up in Heaven.

There are also instances where praying for the dead is recommended. Why would you pray for the dead if it would not help? If a soul is going to Hell then there is nothing you can do for them. If they are going to Heaven then there is no reason to pray for them because they are allready there. So this proves Purgatory.

Purgatory is also an act of mercy by God. If there were no Purgatory then there would be many more people in Hell because in order to get to Heaven you must be perfect. You would go to Hell if you had the smallest sin on your soul, for example a little white lie. By denying that there is a Purgatory you are denying Gods Mercy.

I think that protestants don’t believe in Purgatory because they are not taught about it and the scriptures that support it. They also just assume that the Catholic church is wrong because that is what they have been taught.

 

[jimmy]

The Acts of Paul and Thecla

“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’” (*Acts of Paul and Thecla *[A.D. 160]).

Abercius

“The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius” (*Epitaph of Abercius *[A.D. 190]).

The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity

“[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and * knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment” (*The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).

 

[jimmy]

Tertullian

“[T]hat allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25–26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge . . . and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?” (*The Soul *35 [A.D. 210]).

“We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]” (*The Crown *3:3 [A.D. 211]).

“A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice” (*Monogamy *10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).

Cyprian of Carthage

“The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace * is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord” (*Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

 

[jimmy]

Lactantius

“But also, when God will judge the just, it is likewise in fire that he will try them. At that time, they whose sins are uppermost, either because of their gravity or their number, will be drawn together by the fire and will be burned. Those, however, who have been imbued with full justice and maturity of virtue, will not feel that fire; for they have something of God in them which will repel and turn back the strength of the flame” (*Divine Institutes *7:21:6 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out” (*Catechetical Lectures *23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).

Gregory of Nyssa

“If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire” (*Sermon on the Dead *[A.D. 382]).

 

[jimmy]

John Chrysostom

“Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them” (*Homilies on First Corinthians *41:5 [A.D. 392]).

“Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them to the extent of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf” (*Homilies on Philippians *3:9–10 [A.D. 402]).

 

[jimmy]

Augustine

“There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended” (*Sermons *159:1 [A.D. 411]).

“But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death” (ibid., 172:2).

“Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment” (*The City of God *21:13 [A.D. 419]).

“That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire” (*Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity *18:69 [A.D. 421]).

“The time which interposes between the death of a man and the final resurrection holds souls in hidden retreats, accordingly as each is deserving of rest or of hardship, in view of what it merited when it was living in the flesh. Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator [Mass] is offered for them, or when alms are given in the Church. But these things are of profit to those who, when they were alive, merited that they might afterward be able to be helped by these things. There is a certain manner of living, neither so good that there is no need of these helps after death, nor yet so wicked that these helps are of no avail after death” (ibid., 29:109).

 

[jimmy]

Here are some links.

catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

 

[SPOKENWORD]

jimmy:

There are places in the bible that state that we will be judged according to our sins. This implies that there are more than two(Heaven or Hell) verdicts. If you go to Purgatory you will end up in Heaven.

There are also instances where praying for the dead is recommended. Why would you pray for the dead if it would not help? If a soul is going to Hell then there is nothing you can do for them. If they are going to Heaven then there is no reason to pray for them because they are allready there. So this proves Purgatory.

Purgatory is also an act of mercy by God. If there were no Purgatory then there would be many more people in Hell because in order to get to Heaven you must be perfect. You would go to Hell if you had the smallest sin on your soul, for example a little white lie. By denying that there is a Purgatory you are denying Gods Mercy.

I think that protestants don’t believe in Purgatory because they are not taught about it and the scriptures that support it. They also just assume that the Catholic church is wrong because that is what they have been taught.

Jimmy, The judgements you are talking about is for non believers. There are 5 judgement before our Lord Jesus Christ. Many of the statements you make are also assumptions either by you or the RCC.

 

[RNRobert]

Becky:

I was hoping for a direct source, not a customer
review from Amazon. Thanks

I’m a great fan of C.S. Lewis, and have almost all his books, including* Letters to Malcolm.* Here are a couple of quotes:

“Though even in heaven some perpetual increase of beatitude, reached by a continually more ecstatic self-surrender, without the possiblity of failure but without it’s own ardours and exertions- for delight also has it’s severities and steep ascents as lovers know -might be supposed. But I won’t press, or guess, that side for the moment. I believe in purgatory.”

"Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy?” Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.” “It may hurt, you know” “Even so, sir.” "

"I assume that the process purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it.’

Hope this post has been of some help.

 

[jimmy]

None of my statements were assumptions except maybe why the protestants don’t believe in purgatory.
There really are places that recommend praying for the dead.
It does say we will be judged according to our sins.
The only other assumption that I make is that scripture is true.

 

[dfhauer]

SPOKENWORD:

Really what you are saying is yes Jesus forgives of our sins,but somehow we have to do something else to have them purified. The blood of Christ was not enough and that Christ is going to purify our sins through our works or suffering.Doesnt make any sense. You are making a judgement that only Christ knows and assuming that we have a penalty to pay. Has any saint ever come back to this earth to verify your belief?. I know that when I come before the throne as a christian my sins are forgotten as though they never existed. I say that because thats what the Word of God says. Im not going to dwell on speculation. God Bless.

Actually, that is not what I am saying, or said, at all. It has nothing to do with purification. There is a difference between purification and sanctification. I can purify water but that doesn’t make it holy. I can have my soul purified and cleansed, but that doesn’t make me holy. The idea of purgatory is one of sanctification, not purification. Only what is holy can enter into the presence of God. Christ’s death cleanses our sins, but I must strive for holiness. The striving and desire for holiness is still coming from grace from God, but I must work out my salvation with fear and trembling. So, I know that when/if I reach heaven that I will still not truly be holy as God is holy, so I will choose to undergo a cleansing fire to sanctify my soul.

Does that help at all?

in pacem Christi,
df

 

[Katholikos]

Calvin:

. The authority behind the Alexandrian canon is the Catholic Church. The authority behind the Palestinian canon is the Reformation. You decide which authority you wish to accept.-C

QUOTE: The Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, Second Edition, Everett Ferguson, editor, Garland Publishing, 1998

Septuagint (LXX) - pp 1048-1049

"The Septuagint was the Bible of the earliest church. The parting of the church from the synagogue was a bitter one. The Septuagint had been regarded as the inspired Word of God; . . . the synagogue rejected the Septuagint [c. 90-100] . . . the Church spread the Septuagint, together with its own writings contained in the New Testament, throughout the world in its missionary activities. The Greek Bible was translated into Latin, Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopic, Armenian, Georgian, Arabic and other languages. . . [so much for the false charges against the Church of keeping the Bible out of the people’s hands]. Until the Protestant Reformation, the canon of the Church was the larger canon of the Septuagint.

The Septuagint has traditionally been used to restore the text of the Hebrew Bible where the latter is corrupt . . . END QUOTE (emphasis added)

The authority behind the Septuagint is Jesus, the Apostles, the Sacred Writers of the NT (about 86% of the OT quotes in the NT are from the Septuagint), and the first Christians. The writers of NT regarded both the Hebrew and the Greek texts as Scripture, but clearly preferred the Greek.

The authority behind the Palestinian canon is the Palestinian rabbis who rejected Jesus and the Scriptures the Church inherited from Him and the Apostles – and Martin Luther and his followers.

Jesus quotes the LXX - Luke 4:14-21. This passage ends with Jesus saying: “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” Jesus was in the synagogue in Nazareth reading from a scroll of the LXX Isaiah. This is proof positive that the LXX was used both in the synagogues of the Diaspora and in Palestine.

There are other examples.

JMJ Jay

 

[Little_Mary]

SPOKENWORD:

Jimmy, The judgements you are talking about is for non believers. There are 5 judgement before our Lord Jesus Christ. Many of the statements you make are also assumptions either by you or the RCC.

The Catholic church does not make assumptions. That is an assumption on your part.

 

[1962Missal]

SPOKENWORD:

Jimmy, The judgements you are talking about is for non believers. There are 5 judgement before our Lord Jesus Christ. Many of the statements you make are also assumptions either by you or the RCC.

When you speak of assumptions on the part of the Church, you are making assumptions yourself. One is that with the closure of Divine Revelation, the fullness of its meaning would have been evident to true believers or that anything not immediately evident on the face of the Word of God would be consigned to the realm of “speculation”. This, in turn, in based on your belief that the Holy Spirit, with the ending of general revelation, had done all the work except for leading the individual to understanding. You exclude the possibility of an ongoing, authoritative, Spirit-directed development in the understanding of the once-for-all revealed truth.

 

[Katholikos]

II Paradox II:

Katholicos -

The name “Christian” was used very early according to Acts 11:26 (I think you are saying that the term wasn’t used until later… disregard this if you aren’t arguing that).

“And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”

ken

Hi, Ken

Luke/Acts was written during the last third of the first century (RSV). The NAB assigns it to 80 - 90. *Acts *11:26 says they [the followers of Jesus] were first called Christian in Antioch. Ignatius of Antioch writing 107 - 110, called the Church by the name Catholic (Greek for ‘universal’) for the first time in writing (Letter to the Smyrnaeans), but he may have heard it from the Apostles. Polycarp was known as the bishop of the Catholic Church at Smyrna according to Church historian, Eusebius, History of the Church, 314-324 A.D. The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp [c. 155] begins: The Church of God which resides as a stranger at Smyrna, to the Church of God residing at Philomelium, and to all the communities of the holy Catholic Church residing in any place . . . So the name rapidly came into use. Members of the Catholic Church (which was the only Church) were, of course, called Catholics.

Please forgive me if I’m telling you something you already know, but I think others may not.

May I ask, what translation are you quoting? Interesting wording.

JMJ Jay

 

[jimmy]

spokenword

How can you talk about anyone making assumptions? You protestants assume that Jesus was not being litteral when he said you must eat his body, which it says nowhere in the bible thwat he isn’t being litteral. You protestants are assuming that you are saved by faith alone, when infact in the bible it says that you are not saved by faith alone. You are assuming that the catholic church screwed up in the first thirty years of christian history when you have no proof at all. How can you ever say that the catholic church s wrong? Do you know the bible better than St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. Ambrose and all the other catholic saints and apostles in history? The bible does not contradict any catholic belief. I dare you to search for proof. Use honest sources though and not the anti-catholic sources.