Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory and Protestants do not?

[jimmy]

Fr Ambrose:

We are back to one of the nitty gritties of this debate.

The Catholic argument for purgatory cannot be sustained without the distinction between eternal (remitted by Christ on the Cross) and temporal (needed to be paid by the individual sinner) punishment due to sin.

Since the Orthodox have no such distinction and since the Orthodox believe that when God forgives, He forgives without any further requirement for punishment (all the punishment for sin was born by our merciful Saviour) then there is simply no need of a purgatory to purge away the supposed temporal punishment. No such type of punishment exists. Ergo, no purgatory.

That temporal punishment is not so that God can punish you though. In catholic theology it is believed that sin has a permanent effect on the soul. That permanent effect must be gotten rid of.

This is what the Catechism says

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

This talks about it as a purification.

FrAmbrose, would you agree that we must be perfect in order to enter Heaven and be in the presence of God?
would you agree that we do not die perfect?

If you agree to both of these, then there must be a time when we recieve the grace that makes us perfect. It does not matter how this is done. What matters is whether it is done. If both of the statements above are true then you can not enter Heaven without recieving grace in some way. That is Purgatory. Purgatory does not necisarily have to be a punishment or anything. The only requirements of the doctrine are that it exists and that our prayers help those in need of grace.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

jimmy:

That temporal punishment is not so that God can punish you though.

Punishment is not punishment?

would you agree that we must be perfect in order to enter Heaven and be in the presence of God?

I am, with all my sins, in the presence of God at this very moment. Yesterday He came to me, defiled and sinful, in Communion and filled my soul and every member of my body.

 

[jimmy]

Fr Ambrose:

Punishment is not punishment?

I was saying that to mean that purgatory is not so that God can punish us. Some people make that statement. Purgatory is a state of cleansing.

I am, with all my sins, in the presence of God at this very moment. Yesterday He came to me, defiled and sinful, in Communion and filled my soul and every member of my body.

You know what I mean though. I am pretty sure that the Orthodox agree with the statement I made, but I want to be sure.

 

[jeffreedy789]

i confess that i have only read about the first half of this thread, so if what i post here has already been said, please forgive.

couple things i’d like to say, as a convert from prot to RCC. btw, i have a degree in baptist theology, so i know more than the average bear.

1. it was said ‘I did not realze that this was a valid theological position from the Protestant perspective.’ i’d like to point out for everyone’s examination that it’s difficult (i’d say more like impossible) to say that ‘so and so’ is ‘a valid position from a prot perspective’. protestants, even of the same denom, even of the same CHURCH, do not agree on everything. in fact, they don’t agree on much. so you might find something that one protestant, or one protestant church, or one protestant denomination, holds to be true, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a valid perspective from a prot perspective. does that make sense?
2. i would say that every thinking Christian in the world, no matter their tradition (by that i mean their denom or if they’re catholic), believes in purgatory. everyone knows we’re still sinful. everyone knows that we will not be sinful in heaven. sometime between now and then we must be purified from sin. the only question, really, is whether purgatory is instantaneous, or whether it takes place ‘experientially’ i.e., we feel it happening, and it ‘takes time’ (although the meaning of ‘it takes time’ is a whole other can of worms).

so - purgatory becomes a question of ‘how long does it take?’ which, i think, is a small matter.

 

[Toni]

Veronica Anne:

One of those books was Maccabees, which talked about praying for folks after they had died.
Sigh.

I have argued this point more than once the problem with the protestant point of view they have the remade version of the bible by King James. So they are missing a few books that contain that information.:yup:

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

jeffreedy789:

i would say that every thinking Christian in the world, no matter their tradition (by that i mean their denom or if they’re catholic),

Some of the critics of Orthodoxy like to say that the Orthodox stopped thinking round about the 8th century. This would confirm your point that only thinking Christians believe in purgatory.

Some western theologians have dismissed Orthodoxy outright. The esteemed 19th century church historian Adolf von Harnack wrote: “The Orthodox Church is in her entire structure alien to the gospel and represents a perversion of the Christian religion, its reduction to the level of pagan antiquity.”

 

[jimmy]

FrAmbrose, do you believe that you must be perfect in order to enter Heaven?

If so, Do you believe that those that enter Heaven are perfect when they die?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

jimmy:

FrAmbrose, do you believe that you must be perfect in order to enter Heaven?

No, I believe that only God is perfect and the only man who is perfect is Jesus Christ the eternal Word of God.

If perfection were the entrance ticket for heaven then there would be no human there.

I suppose this answers your second question also.

 

[Brendan]

Father, bless me, a sinner,

Would not the words of Paul imply that we are to be made perfect at Ressurection?

Philippians 3:10-13

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Many years,

 

[jimmy]

Fr Ambrose:

No, I believe that only God is perfect and the only man who is perfect is Jesus Christ the eternal Word of God.

If perfection were the entrance ticket for heaven then there would be no human there.

I suppose this answers your second question also.

Do the Orthodox have a conclusive idea on this or is this what you believe?

I ask because I was talking to a Greek Orthodox and he said that you must be perfect in order to enter Heaven. He compared it to the wedding where all the guests were required to where white. One person came whereing a different colored robe. He got kicked out because he did not belong there.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

jimmy:

Do the Orthodox have a conclusive idea on this or is this what you believe?

I ask because I was talking to a Greek Orthodox and he said that you must be perfect in order to enter Heaven. He compared it to the wedding where all the guests were required to where white. One person came whereing a different colored robe. He got kicked out because he did not belong there.

I think that people confuse a state of what Orthodox would call dispassion with that of perfection. Only God is perfect, but humans can reach a high level of dispassion (non-attachment to sin).

I would say (but need to check this with the Church Fathers) that the wedding garment is not perfection but it is the characteristics which a soul needs to be fit for paradise.

St. Gregory the Great, Pope of Rome, wrote that the wedding garment symbolizes the virtue of charity, both for God and our neighbour… “These are great precepts,” exclaims St. Gregory, “sublime precepts, and are to many hard to fulfill: nevertheless this is the wedding garment. And whoever sits down at the wedding feast without it, let him watch with fear, for when the King comes in, he shall be cast forth.”

St. Symeon the New Theologian says that the wedding garment is the divinity of Christ: "“No one will enter there without wearing the robe of My divinity,” He uses this saying [in the parable of the wedding feast] to suggest it. St. Paul, too, when he had been taught this by Christ speaking within him, said: “Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven”

Orthodoxy teaches that there is infinite progression for the human soul in heaven (Saint Paul’s “from glory to glory”) and this means that while we are changing and making progress that we cannot be perfect. We never shall be - it is a never-ending journey.

 

[jimmy]

Fr Ambrose:

I think that people confuse a state of what Orthodox would call dispassion with that of perfection. Only God is perfect, but humans can reach a high level of dispassion (non-attachment to sin).

I would say (but need to check this with the Church Fathers) that the wedding garment is not perfection but it is the characteristics which a soul needs to be fit for paradise.

St. Gregory the Great, Pope of Rome, wrote that the wedding garment symbolizes the virtue of charity, both for God and our neighbour… “These are great precepts,” exclaims St. Gregory, “sublime precepts, and are to many hard to fulfill: nevertheless this is the wedding garment. And whoever sits down at the wedding feast without it, let him watch with fear, for when the King comes in, he shall be cast forth.”

St. Symeon the New Theologian says that the wedding garment is the divinity of Christ: "“No one will enter there without wearing the robe of My divinity,” He uses this saying [in the parable of the wedding feast] to suggest it. St. Paul, too, when he had been taught this by Christ speaking within him, said: “Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven”

Orthodoxy teaches that there is infinite progression for the human soul in heaven (Saint Paul’s “from glory to glory”) and this means that while we are changing and making progress that we cannot be perfect. We never shall be - it is a never-ending journey.

I think I finally understand what you are saying.

You say that “humans can reach a high level of dispassion (non-attachment to sin).” And “it is the characteristics which a soul needs to be fit for paradise.”

When we die we are not in this state of “dispassion”. As saint Gregory says, we must be in this state in order to attend the feast. Which means that we must be put in this state or we must be made like this. This does not contradict purgatory.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

jimmy:

When we die we are not in this state of “dispassion”. As saint Gregory says, we must be in this state in order to attend the feast. Which means that we must be put in this state or we must be made like this. This does not contradict purgatory.

I am reminded of the incident from the founder of the Oratorians Philip Neri who was aflicted with a predisposition to anger. One day at prayer he prayed as never before to be purged of it and he rose up from prayer with a new confidence. But, as he walked out of the church a student met him on the steps and his naive questions caused Philp to become angry, and so it went on through the day. If anything Philip experienced more angry times that day than on other days!

At night he knelt again in the church and said: “Lord, I prayed so hard to be free of my anger and I thought that you had answered my prayer.” And the Lord answered from the crucifix: “Philip, I did hear your prayer and all through the day I sent you many oportunities to control your anger.”

Would this be like the Catholic purgatory? A man beset with anger gets opportunities to confront it and overcome it? A man beset with lust would be given opportunities to fall into sin but learns to control it?

 

[jimmy]

Fr Ambrose:

I am reminded of the incident from the founder of the Oratorians Philip Neri who was aflicted with a predisposition to anger. One day at prayer he prayed as never before to be purged of it and he rose up from prayer with a new confidence. But, as he walked out of the church a student met him on the steps and his naive questions caused Philp to become angry, and so it went on through the day. If anything Philip experienced more angry times that day than on other days!

At night he knelt again in the church and said: “Lord, I prayed so hard to be free of my anger and I thought that you had answered my prayer.” And the Lord answered from the crucifix: “Philip, I did hear your prayer and all through the day I sent you many oportunities to control your anger.”

Would this be like the Catholic purgatory? A man beset with anger gets opportunities to confront it and overcome it? A man beset with lust would be given opportunities to fall into sin but learns to control it?

I don’t know what Purgatory is like because I have never been there and no one has been there and come back to tell us of it. But I have a question for you. With your last paragraph are you trying to say all that go to Heaven overcome all there sins by the time they die? You can not overcome all your sins in your lifetime on earth and be free from it.

 

[the_specialist]

One of the arguments they use for not believing was the thief who was present during the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus went on to say “Today, you will be with me in paradise.”

Father Echert beautifully expalined that the crucifixion, which was a terrible form of torture that will lead to death was a form of “purgation” for the said thief. He may have escaped purgatory, but the fact is, he paid for his sins before entering heaven thru crucifixion. Now what about those who didn’t paid yet for their sins when they die? The Catholic Church says–they will go to purgatory for cleansing before they can enter heaven. For nothing defiled can enter heaven.

Pio

And I always thought Jesus paid for our sin debt in full…

 

[the_specialist]

Christianity – which was also known as Catholicism for the first thousand years A.D. – was a natural outgrowth from Judaism. **The Catholic Church was founded by the Jewish Messiah **-- the Christ, the Anointed One – upon Peter, the Rock. His Twelve Apostles, all leaders of the newborn Church, were faithful and observant Jews.

Even after the Crucifixion and Ascension of Our Lord and the birth of His Church, the Apostles continued to attend synagogue services. Then they and their followers – first called Christians at Antioch (Acts 11:26) – who were the Church, gathered together in members’ houses to celebrate the “breaking of the bread” – the Mass (Acts 2:42, 20:7, et al.). Acts documents how intertwined were Christianity and Judaism.

The Jews believed that souls were purified after death, in preparation for their union with God (example: “Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin” (RSV, See 2 Maccabees 12:38-45). They still do. They just don’t call this process “purgatory.” Jews prayed for their dead at the time of Jesus and still do today. The Apostles – all devout Jews – taught the concept of after-death purification to their new Greek-speaking converts, the first Christians.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ for the salvation of the world. Christ taught the Apostles and the Apostles taught the Church. The Church has been teaching the concept of the purification of souls after death (purgatory) for the past 2,000 years because she learned it from the Apostles.

Protestants, basing their faith on Sola Scriptura, not only do not find purgatory in the Scriptures (because they don’t know how to recognize the Truth when they read it), but they are so far removed in time from the beginning of historical Christianity that they have cut themselves off from this knowledge.

The New Testament came out of the Church. The teachings of the Catholic Church are reflected in the NT, not the other way around. Just because there is not a flat statement in the NT that “souls are purified after death in a process called purgatory” does not mean it isn’t there, or that Christ and His Apostles didn’t believe it and teach it.

Latin: purgare (v.) To purify, to cleanse.

There’s much more to be said about purgatory. Comments?

Ave Cor Mariae, Jay

“The Catholic Church was founded by the Jewish Messiah” = incorrect… The Church was founded by Christ. All the Churches in the Bible were named after towns - meaning the church in Ephesus,Smyrna,Pergamum,ect…They were simply called churches and they named the town they were in.The Church was always Christs until Ignatius of Antioch wrote: "Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church - hence the first biggest division by name…Calling it universal …
Sola Scriptura = In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God … The holy spirit allows us to understand scripture to the fullest and only the holy spirit. Sola Scriptura isn’t against authority but we know that authority needs to be in keeping with the word. Absent in body,present with the lord…(not a tortuous place to pay for your own sins.Purification is only by the Holy spirit and as you are raised from the dead,you will be made perfect,within a twinkle of an eye…You Will receive your spiritual body… You must read your bible as you won’t find that the "spirits in prison were in purgatory but only the spirit of God can teach you where those disobedient spirits were… I could maybe tell you too… lol

 

[the_specialist]

I have argued this point more than once the problem with the protestant point of view they have the remade version of the bible by King James. So they are missing a few books that contain that information.:yup:

Catholics will tell you, “You Protestants are missing part of the Bible. We have the rest of it.” This can throw people off, but it no longer has to. These false Catholic additions to the Bible are commonly called the Apocrypha or sometimes the Deuterocanonical books. This is a short treatise on WHY these books are not in the Bible.

What is the Apocrypha anyway?

The Apocrypha is a collection of uninspired, spurious books written by various individuals. The Catholic religion considers these books as scripture just like a Bible-believer believes that our 66 books are the word of God, i.e., Genesis to Revelation. We are going to examine some verses from the Apocrypha later in our discussion.

At the Council of Trent (1546) the Roman Catholic religion pronounced the following apocryphal books sacred. They asserted that the apocryphal books together with unwritten tradition are of God and are to be received and venerated as the Word of God. So now you have the Bible, the Apocrypha and Catholic Tradition as co-equal sources of truth for the Catholic. In reality, the Bible is the last source of truth for Catholics. Catholic doctrine comes primarily from tradition stuck together with a few Bible names. In my reading of Catholic materials, I find notes like this: “You have to keep the Bible in perspective.” Catholics do not believe that the Bible is God’s complete revelation for man.

The Roman Catholic Apocrypha
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch
First and Second Maccabees
Additions to Esther and Daniel

Apocryphal Books rejected by the Catholic Religion:

First and Second Esdras
Prayer of Manasses
Susanna*

*A reader says: “Susanna is in the Roman Catholic canon. It is Daniel 13.”

Why the Apocrypha Isn’t in the Bible.

Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament. All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I’m certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).
The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the “canonical” scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.
The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection. The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:

 

[humble_maid]

And I always thought Jesus paid for our sin debt in full…

Yes Jesus did. What is meant here,in reference to the quote by hlgomez is that the thief CONFESSED his sin and ACCEPTED the LORD JESUS therefore he was saved and Jesus promised him that he will bring him to paradise. The thief’s death was the price he paid as a consequence of his sin. Death is the price of sin( it’s in the bible).
Furthermore, confession is a sacrament in the catholic church which enables the sinner to publicly(in some form) declare his sins. Thereby gaining absolution by the priest (apostolic succession) such as the thief did.
Sola Scriptura=no need for priests? Thereby anyone can attain absolution just by asking Jesus? Then why did Jesus institute the apostlolic church in which He gave them(the apostles) the authority to forgive sins or not to forgive? Is this practiced in Prostestant churches? And if it is practiced, who has authority to absolve them? Is it a sacrament?

 

[Thorwald]

Christianity – which was also known as Catholicism for the first thousand years A.D. – was a natural outgrowth from Judaism. The Catholic Church was founded by the Jewish Messiah – the Christ, the Anointed One – upon Peter, the Rock. His Twelve Apostles, all leaders of the newborn Church, were faithful and observant Jews.

Even after the Crucifixion and Ascension of Our Lord and the birth of His Church, the Apostles continued to attend synagogue services. Then they and their followers – first called Christians at Antioch (Acts 11:26) – who were the Church, gathered together in members’ houses to celebrate the “breaking of the bread” – the Mass (Acts 2:42, 20:7, et al.). Acts documents how intertwined were Christianity and Judaism.

The Jews believed that souls were purified after death, in preparation for their union with God (example: “Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin” (RSV, See 2 Maccabees 12:38-45). They still do. They just don’t call this process “purgatory.” Jews prayed for their dead at the time of Jesus and still do today. The Apostles – all devout Jews – taught the concept of after-death purification to their new Greek-speaking converts, the first Christians.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ for the salvation of the world. Christ taught the Apostles and the Apostles taught the Church. The Church has been teaching the concept of the purification of souls after death (purgatory) for the past 2,000 years because she learned it from the Apostles.

Protestants, basing their faith on Sola Scriptura, not only do not find purgatory in the Scriptures (because they don’t know how to recognize the Truth when they read it), but they are so far removed in time from the beginning of historical Christianity that they have cut themselves off from this knowledge.

The New Testament came out of the Church. The teachings of the Catholic Church are reflected in the NT, not the other way around. Just because there is not a flat statement in the NT that “souls are purified after death in a process called purgatory” does not mean it isn’t there, or that Christ and His Apostles didn’t believe it and teach it.

Latin: purgare (v.) To purify, to cleanse.

There’s much more to be said about purgatory. Comments?

Ave Cor Mariae, Jay

The Catholic Church has ‘taken possession’ (ownership) of God’s Word. Even prophets only know ‘in part’. Catholics have assumed, that God only talks to them. They also assume, that they only are the source of wisdom from God. There is a lot of scripture, that not only disputes this, but warns us of this ‘high-headedness’. This is very dangerous.

The Word of God has always come by way of annointed people (disciples/apostles/prophets…and of course, Jesus) who were chosen from His annointed people, the Israelites. He in fact, called these people, ‘Gods’.

If you are a ‘gentile’, why would you assume, that you are favoured by God, above His chosen people? Why do you assume, that He needs you to teach His chosen people? The N/T teaches us, that **All Israel **shall be saved. Gentiles are not Israelites, There is no such statement made, covering gentiles.

Roman Catholics keep telling the world, that the apostles have selected ‘them only’ in order to provide them with original scriptures (witnessed by Jesus and The Holy Ghost), and then allowed them to ‘add’ non-scriptural doctrines and practices (not witnessed) to this Holy Scripture. Why should I believe you? God has not instructed me to do so.

 

[the_specialist]

Yes Jesus did. What is meant here,in reference to the quote by hlgomez is that the thief CONFESSED his sin and ACCEPTED the LORD JESUS therefore he was saved and Jesus promised him that he will bring him to paradise. The thief’s death was the price he paid as a consequence of his sin. Death is the price of sin( it’s in the bible).
Furthermore, confession is a sacrament in the catholic church which enables the sinner to publicly(in some form) declare his sins. Thereby gaining absolution by the priest (apostolic succession) such as the thief did.
Sola Scriptura=no need for priests? Thereby anyone can attain absolution just by asking Jesus? Then why did Jesus institute the apostlolic church in which He gave them(the apostles) the authority to forgive sins or not to forgive? Is this practiced in Prostestant churches? And if it is practiced, who has authority to absolve them? Is it a sacrament?

The Holy spirit… The same spirit that cleanses all of our sins.The original disciples did what Christ told them to do and thank God for it because it is the way the word has been brought to us through Christ…I love every Church that does not lean into their own understanding.This is the Idea that I believe the catholics have,that the holy spirit only lives in the priest and only those that partake of it through the catholic church.This is completely wrong to think that one cannot partake of the Holy spirit unless one it touched by the hands of the catholic…No ? Please correct me where I may be wrong.

I will ask you this question and mean no disrespect as I have been talking to a whole hearted Catholic and have no doubt that he is a true man of God as he is sharp and I have learned from him,Praise the Lord !!! Here is my question as I feel it is a good one about the apostolic succession.

Since Jesus gave the disciples the authority and power to heal and preach throughout the land that we all may except him.Put it this way:**If the ‘Apostolic’ tradition is such a close link to God and Jesus, then why are there Catholic hospitals that are full of sick people? **Or even hospitals in general ?

Matthew 10
6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

What happened to that passage of Apostolic Authority?

( Sola Scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God. I am a protestant that believes that ministers and priests need to be corrected by by the Bible as it is so east for any and everyone to lean into their own interpretation Of the word of God…