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homer
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For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. (Hebrews 8:12)
Jesus died for you and his blood made you free from every single sin.
ENJOY THE FREE GIFT!
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Jesus died for you and his blood made you free from every single sin.
ENJOY THE FREE GIFT!
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Katholikos
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Spokenword,JAY, Yes there is a penalty for all sin. The difference is confessed sin penalty is paid in full by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. The penalty for unconfesed sin is death. I make no such claim being infallable,it is you that says it. If you cannot speak in a spirit of love,then you are not being the light that God called you to be, all we will be is a noisy symbol
Your statements are presented as absolute truth. Therefore, you must believe they are infallible. If you were to preface these statements with “This is what I believe; I could be wrong; this is my opinion (or interpretation)” or something similar, I would understand that you are not claiming that your belief or interpretation is infallible. But when you present statements as absolute facts, and they conflict with the teaching of the 2.000-year-old Catholic Church which learned her doctrines from the Apostles, I take exception to them. For example, your statements quoted above are not qualified but absolute. I naturally concluded that you must think they’re infallible.
Perhaps you see sin as one-dimensional – but the Church taught by the Apostles does not. There is the guilt of sin, and there is also the penalty for sin. The Church agrees with you that even one drop of the precious blood of Christ is sufficient to cover all the repented sins in the entire world. But forgiven sins still carry a penalty. Several great examples to explain the difference have been given on this thread. I forgive you for wrecking my car, but justice demands that you fix it. I forgive you for breaking my window, but justice demands that you replace it. I leave your food in the oven too long and burn it – you forgive me, but justice demands that I buy your dinner. God’s mercy forgives the guilt of our repented sins, but His justice demands restitution – there is always a penalty for violating His laws. Nobody gets away without being punished for his sins either in this life or the next. No good Father would let his children commit an offense without teaching them that actions have consequences.
Sorry if you were offended. I’m very direct. I take the shortest distance between two points when I write. It’s not personal. But I’ll try to mindful of it.
JMJ Jay
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SPOKENWORD
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Kathilikos,Please understand I am not offended in what you say to me. Because of God mercy I believe our confessed sins are forgotten by our Lord as if they never existed. Now to say we have a penalty to pay for our confessed sin is saying that God doesnt forget about it. Please give me some scriptures that says confessed sin carries a penaly that we have to pay for. I will then concede and say I am wrong. Jesus Christ was always right and yet people did not accept his truth.
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jimmy
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spokenword
there is nowhere in the catholic catechism. That mentions a punishment for sins that have been confessed and forgiven. there are only two doctrines about Purgatory.
there is nowhere in the catholic catechism. That mentions a punishment for sins that have been confessed and forgiven. there are only two doctrines about Purgatory.
- It exists.
- Prayers help those who are there.
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SPOKENWORD
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Jimmy,nothing in the catechism,how about in the bible?
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RedGolum
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Luther did not throw out James. While he did think it was an easy book to misunderstand (like Revelations) he did not want to remove it. In fact, he had to DEFEND it to some of the other Reformers.
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hlgomez
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Spoke Word,
You wrote:
Nice reading on this chapter!
Pio
You wrote:
With due respect for Katholikos, I would like to give you one great example in the Bible regarding the above quote. If you will turn with me to the story of King David during the time that he has commited adultery with Batsheba. The prophet Nathan rebuked him, and King David was greatly sorry before the Lord. Bathseba got pregnant with David, but the Lord took away the child’s life. King David pleaded with God to spare the child, but because of his sin he was not heard. That was the penalty that King David got, but his sins were forgiven by the Lord.
Nice reading on this chapter!
Pio
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SPOKENWORD
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Pio, Ill agree with you about King Davids sin
carring a penalty, but what you have to remember is Jesus Christ had not gone to the cross at the time.Christ now pays our debts and remembers them no more.
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hlgomez
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Spoken Word,
Umm…:nope: There is a difference here. At that time, King David will not be able to receive Christ’s full redemptive purpose. Meaning, at the moment that he died and goes to the abode of the dead, he will remain there until Christ’s sacrifice is fulfilled. If all his penalties are paid, then he will enherit the kingdom promised to the faithfull people of God and be able to enter heaven, just like the many others who have been waiting for the Messiah in the abode of the dead (purgatory). Remember what the Bible says?–that Christ, after he died, went to preach to those who are in prison? If Christ went to preach the Good News for those who are in prison, then salvation has also come upon those dead people (spirits) in prison–and this* prison* is certainly not hell. Get it?
Bless you,
Pio
Umm…:nope: There is a difference here. At that time, King David will not be able to receive Christ’s full redemptive purpose. Meaning, at the moment that he died and goes to the abode of the dead, he will remain there until Christ’s sacrifice is fulfilled. If all his penalties are paid, then he will enherit the kingdom promised to the faithfull people of God and be able to enter heaven, just like the many others who have been waiting for the Messiah in the abode of the dead (purgatory). Remember what the Bible says?–that Christ, after he died, went to preach to those who are in prison? If Christ went to preach the Good News for those who are in prison, then salvation has also come upon those dead people (spirits) in prison–and this* prison* is certainly not hell. Get it?
Bless you,
Pio
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SPOKENWORD
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Now, you are saying that Christ will judge those before His death differently then those that came after Christ. I mean Christ can do anything He wishes. The reality is that all will come before Him in judgement and that includes all that have died. Where was this prison? You really dont know,just an assumption.Spoken Word,
Umm…:nope: There is a difference here. At that time, King David will not be able to receive Christ’s full redemptive purpose. Meaning, at the moment that he died and goes to the abode of the dead, he will remain there until Christ’s sacrifice is fulfilled. If all his penalties are paid, then he will enherit the kingdom promised to the faithfull people of God and be able to enter heaven, just like the many others who have been waiting for the Messiah in the abode of the dead (purgatory). Remember what the Bible says?–that Christ, after he died, went to preach to those who are in prison? If Christ went to preach the Good News for those who are in prison, then salvation has also come upon those dead people (spirits) in prison–and this* prison* is certainly not hell. Get it?
Bless you,
Pio
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hlgomez
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Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into HellWhere was this prison? You really dont know,just an assumption.
Oops, this is not an assumption, this is the teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Read the following from the cathecism.
632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.(1 Pet. 3:18-19) [633](javascript:OpenPopupWindow() Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483
635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life,” by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades,” so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487
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SPOKENWORD
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hlgomez said:
Hlgomez, You need to go to post 109 and see you just contridicted what you are saying here. Maybe were both confused?
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1962Missal
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Hebrews 12:1-11Kathilikos,Please understand I am not offended in what you say to me. Because of God mercy I believe our confessed sins are forgotten by our Lord as if they never existed. Now to say we have a penalty to pay for our confessed sin is saying that God doesnt forget about it. Please give me some scriptures that says confessed sin carries a penaly that we have to pay for. I will then concede and say I am wrong. Jesus Christ was always right and yet people did not accept his truth.
Justin
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ralphinal
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At first he wanted to remove both of those (James is an epistle of straw, remember), but he thought better of it. The entire Bible can be difficult to understand, that is why we need help to understand it.
Answer this: Two people are walking down the street. One is totally innocent of any sins, another is about to shoot someone. Anyway, the innocent’s cell phone rings. She answers it then tells the other person a little lie to spare her feelings. The other kills someone in cold blood. Both then get hit a bus unrepentant for their sins. Are they both in hell?
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newby
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bbas 64:
Because they are told they must, therefore they do. We are not required to carry such a yoke, so most of us do not.
That was easy.
Bill
I assume that the “they” in your post is Catholics? If so you are right in that Catholics believe in Tradition, Scripture and the teaching Magestruim…long way to say Authority. As I see it, Protestants reject all authority except their own interpretation of the Bible! Thoughts?
Bless you
Because they are told they must, therefore they do. We are not required to carry such a yoke, so most of us do not.
That was easy.
Bill
I assume that the “they” in your post is Catholics? If so you are right in that Catholics believe in Tradition, Scripture and the teaching Magestruim…long way to say Authority. As I see it, Protestants reject all authority except their own interpretation of the Bible! Thoughts?
Bless you
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jimmy
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spokenword
It doesn’t matter what I say is in the bible you won’t believe it but here it is.
It talks about praying for the dead and Paul recommends it.
and it also says that we will be judged according to our sins.
The Jews believe praying for the dead is important. The Eastern Orthodox believe the same. If there is no Purgatory then there is no purpose in praying for the dead.
It doesn’t matter what I say is in the bible you won’t believe it but here it is.
It talks about praying for the dead and Paul recommends it.
and it also says that we will be judged according to our sins.
The Jews believe praying for the dead is important. The Eastern Orthodox believe the same. If there is no Purgatory then there is no purpose in praying for the dead.
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Katholikos
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RedGolum,
I wish this were not true, but it’s documented history. Luther removed 7 books and parts of Esther and Daniel from the OT. He also removed Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the NT. He put these eleven books and parts of two others in a separate section at the back of his German translation of the Bible with the pages unnumbered to indicate that they were not to be considered part of the inspired (God-breathed) Scriptures. Then he wrote a preface for these writings stating his reasons for rejecting them from the canon. I have posted Luther’s preface to James and Jude on another thread – the “History of the Bible.” Please check it out.
Whatever Luther may have written, said, or done after that, he could not take back his. He had written that these OT writings and Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation were not scripture and excluded them from the inspired Scriptures. It makes no difference that he left them at the back of his Bible. In effect, he created an “appendix” to the inspired scriptures and put these “unscriptural” writings in it. He said they could be read, but that he didn’t consider them Scripture on an equal with the others. That’s rejection from the canon any way you look at it.
The interesting point is that he treated all eleven writings and parts of two others exactly the same. But the OT books he rejected are not in Protestant Bibles, and the four NT writings are. Luther’s followers restored the books of the NT to their proper status, not Luther. But they let stand his rejection of the OT writings. That’s why Protestant Bibles have just 39 OT books and only part of Esther and Daniel instead of the 46 writings and the full text of Esther and Daniel in the original Bible, and why they have all 27 of the NT writings, even though Luther rejected four of them.
To see the spin that one Lutheran website (WELS) puts on these four NT writings, see the thread entitled “The Real Luther.” But no amount of whitewash will cover Luther’s tampering with Sacred Scripture.
Peace be to all who post at Catholic Answers.
JMJ Jay
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Katholikos
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I’ll make you a deal – as soon as you show me where the Bible says that everything man needs to know is in the Bible, I’ll become a Jew. (I could never be Protestant again; it’s too illogical.) But you also have to show me how you know of your own knowledge what the Bible is – i.e., which books belong in it, especially the NTKathilikos,Please understand I am not offended in what you say to me. Because of God mercy I believe our confessed sins are forgotten by our Lord as if they never existed. Now to say we have a penalty to pay for our confessed sin is saying that God doesnt forget about it. Please give me some scriptures that says confessed sin carries a penaly that we have to pay for. I will then concede and say I am wrong. Jesus Christ was always right and yet people did not accept his truth.
. Explain to me how you know The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles and the Epistle of Barnabas are not inspired, and how you know Philemon, a letter to a slave owner, is inspired. Remember, you have to do this of your own knowledge. You can’t just take the Catholic Church’s word for it, as all Protestants do.Oh, and also prove that your Bible is complete, when three of Paul’s letters are missing. Maybe the penalty for sin is mentioned in one of them
.God does forget about the ***sin ***-- but he doesn’t forget about the penalty until the penalty is paid, either in this life or the next.
You read your beliefs into the Bible. Nowhere does it say there is no penalty for sin.
You believe the Bible is an instruction book that contains all that God wants us to know about our salvation.
It isn’t, and it doesn’t.
The relevant question is, what did Christians believe when there was no Bible? The Church had been teaching for about 400 years before she formed the Bible. She taught – then and now – that there is a penalty for every sin. Why? Because the Apostles taught it. And the Church is “the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth” 2 Tim 3:15. She teaches the Truth and nothing but the Truth.
JMJ Jay
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RedGolum
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Luther didn’t like James or Revelation that much, as both books could be easily misunderstood. However he did say that both books were Scripture and needed to be treated as such.
Ok, on to your question. The short answer is that as I am not sure of the status of either of the peoples soul or faith, only God knows.
The long answer is that the person with the cell phone is probably in heaven, as the “little white lie” is a minor sin (I believe the RCC calls them venial (sp)). The one with the desire to murder is a bit tricky. It depends. What was the motive? Was he mentally derainged at the time or was the murder to be a conscious decision? Again, using the little detials you gave me, we can’t know.
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Katholikos
Guest
“The souls of those who die in the state of grace, but with venial faults or temporal penalties not yet satisfied are detained in Purgatory. . .” Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma, Systematic Index XIV.
“The Council of Trent declared against the Reformers, who rejected the fires of Purgatory, that there is a cleansing fire, that the souls held fast in it receive help through the intercessory prayers of the Faithful, above all by the Sacrifice of the Altar, which is pleasing to God” Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 321.
“According to 2 Mach. 12, 12:46 there existed in late Judaism the conviction that those who had died in sin could be helped by prayer and sacrifice of atonement. Purification from sin was ascribed to prayer and sacrifice. The early Christians took over from Judaism belief in the efficacy of intercessory prayer. Paul desired God’s mercy on the day of judgment for his loyal helper Onesiphorus, who, apparently, was no longer among the living at the time of the composition of the Second Epistle to Timothy: “The Lord grant (grace) until him to find mercy of the Lord in that day” (2 Tim. 1:18)” ibid, p. 321.
JMJ Jay
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