Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory and Protestants do not?

[Churchmouse]

Veronica Anne:

No, I meant the one by JimG. See my post #329 here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=127906&postcount=329

Originally Posted by JimG
Catholics see sin as having damaged our soul, even though we are forgiven. Like a car that’s been in a wreck, it’s alignment is never quite right afterwards. We’ve been forgiven for the wreck, but we still need to get the dents out and the alignment fixed.

IOW, it’s up to us to get those “dents” out and our wheels “aligned.” I don’t see how the idea of afterlife purgation could possibly do that, considering that only Jesus could do that and while we’re living.

As for who is going to Hell, I am not permitted to judge anyone. At all. Period.

Well, it’s as simple as those who live in sin, regardless of gravity.

However, being unrepentant of sin is a sure-fire way to get there. No matter WHAT the sin is.

Of which I agree. If there are no fruits worthy of repentance than it becomes obvious there is no salvation.

You said that “the innocent one” had no sins. My answer: They’d go to Heaven. However, because there’s most probably still temporal punishment as the result of even the innocent’s forgiven sins, there’ll be some time in Purgatory to cleanse the innocent person of their attachment to that sin.

I don’t know what you mean by “innocent one” or where I said it, but you’re assuming there is a purgatory of which this thread is about. I’m already familiar with the purpose of purgatory, how the Catholic assumes its existence, and what entails a “stay” there, but the purpose of this thread is the validity of its existence, who taught it and when. Of which I assert was a later belief, never an Apostolic teaching, and not in Scripture.

See… there’s forgiveness… and there’s results.

Well, so “you” believe.

Peace,
CM

 

[Anonymous_1]

Well isnt the very idea of purgatory in conflict with what the Bible teaches? The fact is the penalty for sin is death. And justly so. Fact is that anyone who is apart from God is spiritually dead. Thus why Jesus says let the dead bury the dead. So just being born into the human race we are spiritually dead. We are seperated from God. This started at the fall of man in the garden of Eden when sin and death entered into this world. This is a very cool way of how it was explained to me,In the old tesament in Exodus 25 where it explains the “blueprints” for the Lords Tabernacle, it talks about the curtain that seperates the Holy Placew fromt he Holy of Holies. In fact from what i understand the High Priests were not able to enter into this Most Holy Place without making sacrafices and washing or something. They had to be free from all sin to enter into Gods presence(which was in the Tabernacle.) or else they would essentially be struck dead on the spot. Ok, now in Mark 15;37 it says

"Then Jesus uttered another loud cry and breathed his last.And the curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. "
This curtain represents the barrier that was between us and God. It was torn in two. Now Jesus is our High priest, who stands before God on our behalf.
Romans 3;23
“For all have sinned;all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guily. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins. For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God’s anger against us.”
So we have established that the punishment for any and all sin is death. Jesus was perfectly righteous, he didn’t deserve to die as we do. He fulfilled the law. (see the old way of being made right with God, through the law) So Jesus suffers and dies humbly, and is mocked etc,etc, and he is completley silent!Imagine!He willingly and obediently suffered OUR PUNISHMENT. So he died in the flesh, and when he died, the law died with him(for all those who believe in his cross), now if that was the end of the story what hope would we have? But even the grave could not contain him, and he was raised by the power of God through the Holy Spirit.all those who believe in faith in the Lord and the power of the cross are set free from the bondage of sin, the power of sin(sin gets its ‘power’ from the law) Now it is through the Blood of Christ that we are made right with God, see we cant pay for our sins, the “price” for sins is death!!! When we believe in Christ, when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit, we die to our flesh, (are hearts are circumsized, the old nature is cut away) and we are given life through Him(and in Him), through His Spirit. Now it is no longer us living in our flesh but Christ himself living in us! We are no longer under the law, because we have died to our old life. We are forgiven!! God throws our sins as far as the east is from the west and are remembered no more. God dosent want to punish us. So he took our punishment because no sacrafice(remember in the old testement how the had to continually offer sacrafices for sin) was suitable. Christ died once for all time. (read Psalm 103)Praise God!

(continued)

 

[Anonymous_1]

The fact is some of you will probaly try to twist what i have just said and explained. No we cannot do whatever we want and live a life of sin. The fact is stated clearly in 1 John 3;4. “Those who sin are opposed to the law of God, for all sin opposes the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, for there is no sin in him. So if we continue to live in him, we wont sin either. but those who keep on sinning have never known him or understood who he is.”

I think the parable of the scattered seeds explains this. Once you have experienced His Love, His AWESOME Power, Once he lives in you, you cant keep on sinning. He sanctifys you.

Truth is though, i could be wrong, because i am fallible. I am human. I write all this to learn, and to correct those who might be mistaken. Remember we must be united, in mind and Spirit and love. And i quote 1 John 2;26

“I have written these things to you because you need to be aware of those who want to lead you astray. But you have recieved the Holy Spirit(the annointing), and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone tot each you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you all things, and what he teaches is true-it is not a lie. So continue in what he has taught you, and continue to live in Christ”

If anything i have said in this was wrong, please correct me(liqwidstyx@yahoo.com), but what i have written is not knowledge or wisdom of my own. The truth is I am foolish. And no other foundation can be laid except the one that has already been laid. And that is Jesu’s death and glorious ressurection and ascension into heaven.
~Anonymous

By the way the Catholic church could be 100% correct, i could be wrong, i am hoping to be rebuked,repoved and chastened though with the Word.

 

[jimmy]

Anonymous_1:

The fact is some of you will probaly try to twist what i have just said and explained. No we cannot do whatever we want and live a life of sin. The fact is stated clearly in 1 John 3;4. “Those who sin are opposed to the law of God, for all sin opposes the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, for there is no sin in him. So if we continue to live in him, we wont sin either. but those who keep on sinning have never known him or understood who he is.”

The greatest Christians sin. You can not say that once you become a follower of Jesus you will not sin. Peter denied Jesus three times and he is one of the greatest followers of Christ ever. He knew who Christ was.

 

[Anonymous_1]

Corpus Cristi:

From what you’ve said, you probably don’t know what purgatory is, so I suggest you learn the Catholic faith before you argue against it.

what he said actually makes sense.If purgatory was enough to cleanse us of our sins, to purify us of our sins, then why O why did our preacious Lord have to suffer and die?

Besides what is mortal sin, the only sin im aware of that wont be forgiven of men is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit lives in us and gives us life, sanctifying and edfying us. For whatever reason i have a feeling the Catholic church teaches many truths, but some things i am not so certain of. I guess more will be revealed.

 

[Anonymous_1]

Jimmy good point, i was going to quote your reply but i couldnt find it. I wasnt implying that once we are saved we can live a life without sinning. Truth is to get the jist of this idea you have to read the entirety of 1 John. Besides Peter was baptized in the holy spirit after he denied Christ 3 times. Note that Judas Icarius also betrayed Jesus but see the two different outcomes. One PERSEVERED, and turned to God for healing and forgiveness the other gave into the guilt and shame.

This is just my experience. I used to smoke cigerettes. Smoked a pack a day for like 6 years. When i came to know the Lord, i couldnt smoke a cigerette without feeling that spiritual pain.(His law is written on our hearts( I tried ignoring it, heh but as i read the word more and more and grew, i stopped wanting to smoke, but i couldnt stop, so i turned to God in prayer. And i was set free.Praise God! This is THE PERFECT example of how sin controls us. Addiction anyone? And he removes the things in our lives that grieve Him as we read His word and pray and ask for help. Read Romands 7;14 if you would to kind of see this illustration. The Bible is awesome though. It is a living word. Praise God!

 

[jimmy]

Anonymous_1:

Well isnt the very idea of purgatory in conflict with what the Bible teaches? The fact is the penalty for sin is death. And justly so. Fact is that anyone who is apart from God is spiritually dead.

The idea of Purgatory is in no way in contradiction with the scriptures.

There will in no way enter into it anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. Rev21;27

From this quote from revelations you can see that nothing can enter Heaven that is not perfect. This is a support for Purgatory. Now Purgatory has not been defined by the church other than that it exists and that prayers help the people in Purgatory.

You may have the wrong idea of what Purgatory is. When you sin it has a permanent affect on your soul. It kind of destroys the soul. When you lie once you lie again many times. Sin kind of makes you more willing to sin. Purgatory clears the damage away. It is not necisarilly a punishment. It is a cleansing.
The punishment for sin is not always death. The bible even talks about sin that is not unto death. The sin that leads to death is called mortal sin because it is a deliberate act against God and it is a serious matter. Venial sin is sin that may not be deliberately done against God or it may be a small matter. The venial sin is what may lead to Purgatory. Mortal sin leads to death.

We all sin even the best of Christians sin. If there was no Purgatory, according to Revelations we would all go to Hell.

This started at the fall of man in the garden of Eden when sin and death entered into this world. This is a very cool way of how it was explained to me,In the old tesament in Exodus 25 where it explains the “blueprints” for the Lords Tabernacle, it talks about the curtain that seperates the Holy Placew fromt he Holy of Holies. In fact from what i understand the High Priests were not able to enter into this Most Holy Place without making sacrafices and washing or something. They had to be free from all sin to enter into Gods presence(which was in the Tabernacle.) or else they would essentially be struck dead on the spot. Ok, now in Mark 15;37 it says
"Then Jesus uttered another loud cry and breathed his last.And the curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. "

Yes the High Preist had to make sacrifices and to be free from sin. I heard this on the Catholic radio. If they were not free from sin they would drop dead when they were in there. So they would tie a rope around there ankle so that if this happened someone could pull them out without going in. But this does not contradict Purgatory, it just states that you must be completely free from sin in order to enter the presence of God. This supports Purgatory.

 

[jimmy]

This curtain represents the barrier that was between us and God. It was torn in two. Now Jesus is our High priest, who stands before God on our behalf.
Romans 3;23
“For all have sinned;all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guily. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins. For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God’s anger against us.”
So we have established that the punishment for any and all sin is death.

This is not true, not all sin leads to death.

If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for those who sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death. I don’t say that he should make a request concerning this. 1 John 5:16

This further proves the idea of Purgatory. If not all sin leads to death but we need to be perfect in order to enter Heaven then there must be something that takes away this imperfection of sin.

Jesus was perfectly righteous, he didn’t deserve to die as we do. He fulfilled the law. (see the old way of being made right with God, through the law) So Jesus suffers and dies humbly, and is mocked etc,etc, and he is completley silent!Imagine!He willingly and obediently suffered OUR PUNISHMENT. So he died in the flesh, and when he died, the law died with him(for all those who believe in his cross),

This is not true, Jesus did not come to abollish the law, he came to fullfill it. Jesus’ suffering was an incredible sacrifice for us.

now if that was the end of the story what hope would we have? But even the grave could not contain him, and he was raised by the power of God through the Holy Spirit.all those who believe in faith in the Lord and the power of the cross are set free from the bondage of sin, the power of sin(sin gets its ‘power’ from the law) Now it is through the Blood of Christ that we are made right with God, see we cant pay for our sins, the “price” for sins is death!!! When we believe in Christ, when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit, we die to our flesh, (are hearts are circumsized, the old nature is cut away) and we are given life through Him(and in Him), through His Spirit. Now it is no longer us living in our flesh but Christ himself living in us! We are no longer under the law, because we have died to our old life. We are forgiven!! God throws our sins as far as the east is from the west and are remembered no more. God dosent want to punish us. So he took our punishment because no sacrafice(remember in the old testement how the had to continually offer sacrafices for sin) was suitable. Christ died once for all time. (read Psalm 103)Praise God!

This is true, our sin is forgiven, but we still are affected by that sin. The sin degrades and destroys our soul so that we have a greater affinity toward sin. Purgatory helps us to be free from that sin. You say that if we have faith in Christ then we are freed from sin, but this is not true. Even after we find Christ we continue to sin. Paul talks about watching over yourself and making sure that you do not sin. When he said this he he was talking to believers.

 

[jimmy]

Anonymous_1:

The fact is some of you will probaly try to twist what i have just said and explained. No we cannot do whatever we want and live a life of sin. The fact is stated clearly in 1 John 3;4. “Those who sin are opposed to the law of God, for all sin opposes the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, for there is no sin in him. So if we continue to live in him, we wont sin either. but those who keep on sinning have never known him or understood who he is.”

I think the parable of the scattered seeds explains this. Once you have experienced His Love, His AWESOME Power, Once he lives in you, you cant keep on sinning. He sanctifys you.

I agree with you here.

Truth is though, i could be wrong, because i am fallible. I am human. I write all this to learn, and to correct those who might be mistaken. Remember we must be united, in mind and Spirit and love. And i quote 1 John 2;26

I respect your honesty.

“I have written these things to you because you need to be aware of those who want to lead you astray. But you have recieved the Holy Spirit(the annointing), and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone tot each you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you all things, and what he teaches is true-it is not a lie. So continue in what he has taught you, and continue to live in Christ”

I have to disagree because this idea leads to millions of different interpretations. There can not be more than one correct answer. That is the good thing about the church, it helps you to interpret the scriptures.

If anything i have said in this was wrong, please correct me(liqwidstyx@yahoo.com), but what i have written is not knowledge or wisdom of my own. The truth is I am foolish. And no other foundation can be laid except the one that has already been laid. And that is Jesu’s death and glorious ressurection and ascension into heaven.
~Anonymous

By the way the Catholic church could be 100% correct, i could be wrong, i am hoping to be rebuked,repoved and chastened though with the Word.

I respect your honesty once again. We are all fools and all we have is Jesus’ resurection to give us hope.

 

[jimmy]

I will re post it.

The fact is some of you will probaly try to twist what i have just said and explained. No we cannot do whatever we want and live a life of sin. The fact is stated clearly in 1 John 3;4. “Those who sin are opposed to the law of God, for all sin opposes the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, for there is no sin in him. So if we continue to live in him, we wont sin either. but those who keep on sinning have never known him or understood who he is.”

Even though we should not sin we still sin. Even the best Christians sin. Peter denied Christ three times and he is one of the greatest Christians ever.

I tried to re type it but I could not remember all that I said but I hope this helps.

Anonymous_1:

Jimmy good point, i was going to quote your reply but i couldnt find it. I wasnt implying that once we are saved we can live a life without sinning. Truth is to get the jist of this idea you have to read the entirety of 1 John. Besides Peter was baptized in the holy spirit after he denied Christ 3 times. Note that Judas Icarius also betrayed Jesus but see the two different outcomes. One PERSEVERED, and turned to God for healing and forgiveness the other gave into the guilt and shame.

This is just my experience. I used to smoke cigerettes. Smoked a pack a day for like 6 years. When i came to know the Lord, i couldnt smoke a cigerette without feeling that spiritual pain.(His law is written on our hearts( I tried ignoring it, heh but as i read the word more and more and grew, i stopped wanting to smoke, but i couldnt stop, so i turned to God in prayer. And i was set free.Praise God! This is THE PERFECT example of how sin controls us. Addiction anyone? And he removes the things in our lives that grieve Him as we read His word and pray and ask for help. Read Romands 7;14 if you would to kind of see this illustration. The Bible is awesome though. It is a living word. Praise God!

I agree with you 100%. The more youu learn about God and his word, the more guilty you feel for sinning and the less you want to sin. Sin is a vice though and it is tough to break away from it. It holds you.

 

[jimmy]

Anonymous_1:

what he said actually makes sense.If purgatory was enough to cleanse us of our sins, to purify us of our sins, then why O why did our preacious Lord have to suffer and die?

Besides what is mortal sin, the only sin im aware of that wont be forgiven of men is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit lives in us and gives us life, sanctifying and edfying us. For whatever reason i have a feeling the Catholic church teaches many truths, but some things i am not so certain of. I guess more will be revealed.

Purgatory is not a place where you are forgiven of sin. It is a place where you are freed from the effects of sin. Not all sin leads to death as John says

16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. 1John5;16

Mortal sin is a sin that is unto death.
The requirements for mortal sin are

1. Grave matter.
2. Full Knowledge.
3. Full consent

If any of these are not present it is not a mortal sin.

 

[Anonymous_1]

The idea of Purgatory is in no way in contradiction with the scriptures.

Quote:
There will in no way enter into it anything profane, or one who causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. Rev21;27

From this quote from revelations you can see that nothing can enter Heaven that is not perfect. This is a support for Purgatory. Now Purgatory has not been defined by the church other than that it exists and that prayers help the people in Purgatory.

You may have the wrong idea of what Purgatory is. When you sin it has a permanent affect on your soul. It kind of destroys the soul. When you lie once you lie again many times. Sin kind of makes you more willing to sin. Purgatory clears the damage away. It is not necisarilly a punishment. It is a cleansing.
The punishment for sin is not always death. The bible even talks about sin that is not unto death. The sin that leads to death is called mortal sin because it is a deliberate act against God and it is a serious matter. Venial sin is sin that may not be deliberately done against God or it may be a small matter. The venial sin is what may lead to Purgatory. Mortal sin leads to death.

We all sin even the best of Christians sin. If there was no Purgatory, according to Revelations we would all go to Hell.

This is how i understand this
Remember, there is NOTHING redemable about our flesh. We will all die in our flesh. And Christians, we will recieve new heavenly bodies, which will be perfect, but as long as we are in these bodies we are un perfect(profane, sinful, etc) If our flesh was redemable we could goto heaven in these bodies right?. The truth is, before we are born of the Spirit, we are essentially spiritually dead(we have a spirit of the world, which is a spirit of sin, which is a spirit of eath(we inherit this ). We know this because Jesus is the life. in John 1;4 it says “Life itself was in him.” We cannot enter into Heaven in our Earthly bodies. So we will not exist as we do now, and the life that is in those who are born of the Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the life giving Spirit. Ok so we will never enter into Heaven with a Spirit of the world(which is the Spirit that we have before being born again) Basically only those who live in Christ will get into Heaven, but those who live in Christ have died with Christ into baptism of the Spirit.Isnt that what that scripture in Revelation is referring to? Nothing of this world(which is profane, and sinful) will get into Heaven. But what is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is spirit.

(continued)

 

[Anonymous_1]

what i just wrote is clearly illustrated by Paul in Romans 8;9(although this entire illustration is probaly easier understood by reading from Romans 5;12)

in Romans 8;9 it says
“But you are not CONTROLLED by your sinful nature”
(what controls you is your master
“You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you.(And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them are not Christians at all.)”

This is what Jesus is talking about in John 3;3, being born again is a birth/ baptism of the Spirit.

“Since Christ lives within you, even though your body will die because of sin, your spirit is alive because you have been made right with God. The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as he raised Christ from the dead, we will give life to your mortal body by this same life giving spirit.”

Anyway note what 1 John 5;16 says, that
“There is sin that LEADS to death” , which means you must follow it, when we are under the control of sin we are almost forced to continue following the ways of sin, example would be an addiction. But if we turn to God, through Jesus, the chains of our sins can be shattered. And we no longer have to sin, now we have a choice. A dog returns to its vomit, a washed pig returns to the mud.(2 Peter 2;22).

Look at the next line.

1 John 5;18
“We know that those who have become part of God’s family do not make a PRACTICE of sinning, for God’s Son holds them securley, and the evil one cannot get his hands on them.”

I dont know about all this mortal/venial sin stuff. I know that Jesus says in Matthew 12;31 that
“Every sin or blasphemy can be forgiven-except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which can never be forgiven.”

Honestly, we could go back and forth on this all day. I tell you this much, I want to learn. But i dont believe that Purgatory is valid/nor scriptural. And there is no need for endless discussions, I am looking to grow in faith and love, in Spirit and in Truth. Not argue.

“In everything you do, stay away from complaining and arguing.”

Philippians 2;14

Be like salt, make this new life as attractive and tasteful as it is. No need for bitter arguments.

 

[jimmy]

Anonymous_1:

This is how i understand this
Remember, there is NOTHING redemable about our flesh. We will all die in our flesh. And Christians, we will recieve new heavenly bodies, which will be perfect, but as long as we are in these bodies we are un perfect(profane, sinful, etc) If our flesh was redemable we could goto heaven in these bodies right?. The truth is, before we are born of the Spirit, we are essentially spiritually dead(we have a spirit of the world, which is a spirit of sin, which is a spirit of eath(we inherit this ). We know this because Jesus is the life. in John 1;4 it says “Life itself was in him.” We cannot enter into Heaven in our Earthly bodies. So we will not exist as we do now, and the life that is in those who are born of the Spirit is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the life giving Spirit. Ok so we will never enter into Heaven with a Spirit of the world(which is the Spirit that we have before being born again) Basically only those who live in Christ will get into Heaven, but those who live in Christ have died with Christ into baptism of the Spirit.Isnt that what that scripture in Revelation is referring to? Nothing of this world(which is profane, and sinful) will get into Heaven. But what is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is spirit.

(continued)

Anonymous,

Purgatory has nothing to do with the forgiveness of sin. It has to do with the state of the soul. Like I said earlier sin has a degenerativeeffect on the soul. It corrupts the soul. Purgatory is the cleansing of the soul.

You say that sin does not control those who live in Christ but you are incorrect. If that were the case then we would never sin.

Revelations says nothing shall enter Heaven unclean. There is no one who is perfect, even those who live by Christ.

I am not trying to just go back and forth in the name of arguing. I am trying to illustrate the doctrine of Purgatory.

 

[Anonymous_1]

Do you have AOL or AIM? My name is liqwidstyx. I didnt say purgatory has anything to do with forgiveness of sins. I think this is a result of communication problems possibly.
Please leave your screen name.

See i aggree, nothing will enter heaven that is unclean. But when we are born of the Spirit(baptized by the Spirit) we now have the Spirit of Christ living in us.

Truth is you are right, i was raised Catholic and still goto Catholic church regurlary, i am not to familiar with this teaching of purgatory, and if it teaches of purgatory in the Bible, i am more then willing to listen. Please Im me, or e mail me(liqwidstyx@yahoo.com) and let me hear more about purgatory.

From what i understood the doctrine of purgatory is something like, we die with sin that is left unforgiven(from the time we last confessed our sins to the time we die) so we cannot enter Heaven with it on our souls, so we have to temporarily suffer punishment in purgatory. However there are people on earth who offer up there good deeds or days or soemthing to the saints in purgatory, and we pray for them to get out and they pray for us later. Is this more or less correct?

 

[flameburns623]

Liqwidstyx:

From what i understood the doctrine of purgatory is something like, we die with sin that is left unforgiven(from the time we last confessed our sins to the time we die) so we cannot enter Heaven with it on our souls,

No. Per Catholic doctrine, a person who died with unconfessed ‘mortal’ sins would go to hell. Some of us feel this is the ‘DAISY-PICKING’ doctrine of salvation, as opposed to the ‘TULIP’ teaching of Calvinism: “God saves me”. “God saves me not” “God saves me”. “God saves me not”. Of course John 3:15-16 affirms twice that those who believe in Christ HAVE (present, subjunctive, active tense) eternal life, and John 10:28 says that when Christ gives His sheep eternal life, they shall never perish nor shall anyone pluck them from His hand . . .

Purgatory is not about sin so much as about sanctification: in Catholic teaching, all who go to Purgatory are saved but are being made more perfectly holy by their own suffering. Purgatory is not a ‘little hell’: in fact, so far as Purgatory is a place at all, it is probably a part of Heaven, a place where one finishes the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit by one’s own endurance of misery. It might be said that for Catholics, Heaven is the place where God BEATS all of the tears from our eyes, seeing that some Catholics like to employ Luke 12: 46-48 as a prooftext of the doctrine of Purgatory. I am of course contrasting this to Isaiah 25:8 and Revelation 21:4, where God WIPES AWAY all tears and where there is no more sorrow, crying, or pain. .

Protestantism doesn’t place quite the same value upon suffering. Once you get away from the ‘health-and-wealth’ quacks so common on some Protestant TV channels, most of us believe that we WILL suffer to one degree or another in this life, but Protestantism doesn’t necessarily see this as a good or redeeming thing. It is not UNJUST that we suffer (as sinners, it is no less than we deserve), and it is possible that suffering can teach us somewhat of our own limits and of God’s limitlessness. But Protestant theology tends to teach that it is Christ Who is conforming us to His own Image, not we ourselves by means of our suffering.

 

[Funky_Cedars]

Anonymous_1:

…Once you have experienced His Love, His AWESOME Power, Once he lives in you, you cant keep on sinning…

yes i can. if this were true, the world would be nothing like it is now.

why do you think that Daddy would take away your free will? if chrisitans can’t sin, and thus have as much control over their eternal life as a rock, why are they still here? what’s the point of denying them entrance to heaven when they have already attained salvation? seems like a version of the ‘god is a jerk’ theology.

thanks for listening, love and peace, terry

 

[Funky_Cedars]

Anonymous_1:

…Remember, there is NOTHING redemable about our flesh…

sorry, but if this is so, why then did J take on flesh of His own…and then go home with it after He died?

see, instead of needing to get a brand new body, which my family wouldn’t recognize as me, Daddy’s going to make the one He gave me when i was created in His image and likeness pure as new snow, by passing me thru purgatory.

we shouldn’t dis the body, its a temple of the Holy Spirit.

thanks again, love and peace, terry

 

[MariaG]

Purgatory is very Scriptural. There are many Scriptures that Catholics base it off of. But like someone said, you have a mistaken impression of what purgatory is. **Purgatory is not a second chance for UNCONFESSED sin. **Dying with unconfessed mortal sin on our souls will send us straight to Hell. It is where we go to be completely cleansed of the dirt that forgiven sin leaves behind on our soul.

Mt 5:48, Heb 12:14, Jam3:2, rev 21:27, 1 Jn 5:16-17, and many more. You may certainly disagree with Catholic interpretation of Scripture. But I would then ask why your interpretation is more valid than mine?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

MariaG:

Purgatory is very Scriptural… It is where we go to be completely cleansed of the dirt that forgiven sin leaves behind on our soul.

We are back to one of the nitty gritties of this debate.

The Catholic argument for purgatory cannot be sustained without the distinction between eternal (remitted by Christ on the Cross) and temporal (needed to be paid by the individual sinner) punishment due to sin.

Since the Orthodox have no such distinction and since the Orthodox believe that when God forgives, He forgives without any further requirement for punishment (all the punishment for sin was born by our merciful Saviour) then there is simply no need of a purgatory to purge away the supposed temporal punishment. No such type of punishment exists. Ergo, no purgatory.