Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory?

[Kay_Cee]

Hi KC,

Scripture is not the only source for doctrine yet all doctrine is scriptural, even according to the CC. Even when “new” doctrine was first formulated at Jerusalem council it was “scriptural” as noted by James, and as articulated thru God via dream/vision /HS inspiration, of which then became “writ”/recorded.

Whether the only source or not and back to Paul , scripture can *perfectly and thoroughly *equip the believer for good works.

Of course heaven is perfect.

And let me ask you, did you not die in baptism and now are alive in Christ in the new women, and seated in heavenly places, now ? Does He not now, the perfect Godhead find residence in this new person, as in a temple , even a monstrance ?

Of course we still war with the old nature, but he will finally die at our death, and the the new woman goes onto heaven. And yes she will be judged for her works in Christ, but at the end times, at the Judgement Seat of Christ. And that may be what we refer to as purging or shedding hay and stubble.

Blessings

I’m unsure what you’re saying here. You seem to be implying God just steps in and purifies us in an instant at the moment of death.

Please clarify. Exactly what do you think happens at the moment of physical death?

.

 

[zz912]

By the way any place can ascribe to a certain state of being. That is why I like to think of purgatory as more of an event, even the judgement, that takes place for all Christians and before the Lord’s judgement seat.

As long as this is not actually in Heaven, then this understanding I believe conforms to Catholic understanding. Is it your contention that this judgment couldn’t also include some purification of us before entering Heaven?

 

[zz912]

Quote:
Originally Posted by benhur View Post
Quote:
*Originally Posted by zz912 View Post
Abraham’s Bosom, prison, Hades. Lots of names. None of those is an event. *

No but it takes a judgement to get into the for the latter two permanently (Great White Throne Judgement). And believers have the Judgement Seat of Christ where we answer to our Lord for the things we have done in Him.

*What judgment had been given those in “prison” that Jesus went to preach to? Does Jesus preach many messages to those He’s already judged?

And where do you find this teaching that prison and Hades are permanent? The Bible says differently.*

That is a not so explicit scripture as to just what is meant by His “preaching” to those in the underworld/hades/grave/sheol. It is not clear that it was an “altar call” or place of decision

Have no idea what you think I meant. There is another thread dealing with whether hell/hades/fire is forever, if that what you are getting at. I think "hell’ is forever.

You state that those in underworld/hades/sheol are already judged. So why does Jesus preach to them? What is he preaching? Does He preach to those in Heaven or hell?

You state that you have to be judged to get into them permanently. Scripture is clear that Hades is not permanent. So I’m asking for clarification.

 

[JonNC]

I’m unsure what you’re saying here. You seem to be implying God just steps in and purifies us in an instant at the moment of death.

Please clarify. Exactly what do you think happens at the moment of physical death?
.

That’s the way some Catholics express it.

Father Tavard showed how purgatory has been understood by Catholics as both a place of punishment and a state of cleansing, **perhaps even momentary, at the time of death. **Among the mystics, the latter image has greater prominence inasmuch as final purgation means an encounter with the “fire” of divine love which removes the effects of sin on the human person.

usccb.org/news/2006/06-212.cfm

“It is clear that we cannot calculate the ‘duration’ of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming ‘moment’ of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning — it is theheart’s time, it is the time of ‘passage’ to communion with God in the Body of Christ.” - Pope Benedict XIV

forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13190397

Jon

 

[jas84173]

I believe it is spoken of in 2 Maccabees. Reformers didn’t like the book so dubbed it not inspired, thus it isn’t in your Jewish Bible.

 

[benhur]

I’m unsure what you’re saying here. You seem to be implying God just steps in and purifies us in an instant at the moment of death.

Please clarify. Exactly what do you think happens at the moment of physical death?

.

Hi KC,

Well, I do believe God purifies instantly when we are born again, when He enters us, and we die in that water baptism. What happens at death is the final stamp on what happened at baptism…You do not purify that which died at water baptism. You do not purify the old nature. The new nature has the righteousness of Christ imputed to it. You can not purify Christ’s righteousness.

At death this new nature, the new you goes to be with the Lord, as you are with Him now, in the spirit. Now under His covering you still need to be judged/ purged of hay and stubble ( as he also does now), and I believe that happens also later one final time , after death, after being in heaven and just before our “marriage”.

Again, is not the kingdom of God here and now besides being in heaven also ,and within us, even with hay and stubble ?

I hope that helps. Maybe our difference is Christ’s righteousness being imputed to us, for I think the CC church puts it differently.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

As long as this is not actually in Heaven, then this understanding I believe conforms to Catholic understanding. Is it your contention that this judgment couldn’t also include some purification of us before entering Heaven?

Well I think it takes place in heaven or wherever John had his revelation or was taken to.
No I do not think the purification spoken of (seat of Christ) takes place before “entry” but takes place just before the Marriage (just as a bride is purified just before wedding).

Blessings

 

[benhur]

You state that those in underworld/hades/sheol are already judged.

Yes

So why does Jesus preach to them? What is he preaching?

Not sure,would have to reread etc.

You state that you have to be judged to get into them permanently. Scripture is clear that Hades is not permanent. So I’m asking for clarification.

The only thing that has changed is that Paradise,or Abraham’s Bosom "moved’, was taken captive by the Lord after His resurrection and took them up to heaven as the gates were now open. What remained was the place of torment, gehenna/hell and will be cast into lake of fire,which may be the same thing.

Blessings

 

[Gorgias]

Yes Not sure,would have to reread etc.

Actually, the word in Greek (ἐκήρυξεν) doesn’t mean ‘preach’ in the way that ministers preach in churches and on streetcorners. In our common experience of preaching, the preacher is trying to convince and convert his audience.

The word in Greek comes closer to meaning ‘to herald’ or ‘to proclaim the good news’. In other words, Christ came to the virtuous dead and simply proclaimed that their salvation had been won, and took them to heaven.

The only thing that has changed is that Paradise,or Abraham’s Bosom "moved’, was taken captive by the Lord after His resurrection and took them up to heaven as the gates were now open.

Hold on a second: are you talking about a state of existence or about souls in that state of existence? If the latter, then we’re good. If the former, can you show any teaching that substantiates that claim?

 

[benhur]

Actually, the word in Greek (ἐκήρυξεν) doesn’t mean ‘preach’ in the way that ministers preach in churches and on streetcorners. In our common experience of preaching, the preacher is trying to convince and convert his audience.

The word in Greek comes closer to meaning ‘to herald’ or ‘to proclaim the good news’. In other words, Christ came to the virtuous dead and simply proclaimed that their salvation had been won, and took them to heaven.

Hold on a second: are you talking about a state of existence or about souls in that state of existence? If the latter, then we’re good. If the former, can you show any teaching that substantiates that claim?

Hi G

Thank you for clarifying what" preaching" meant in that verse.I do now recall that being said.

As far as Paradise, of course Jesus took the souls out of the underworld to heaven. Not really sure that He took the place, like what for. However, is there just a void there now, does it still exist ? Not sure. I would think it does not exist anymore for certainly no one is there any more. Paradise/Abraham’s Bosom has been vacated. The gehenna/hell part remains with its lost,unrighteous souls.

Blessings

 

[JonNC]

I believe it is spoken of in 2 Maccabees. Reformers didn’t like the book so dubbed it not inspired, thus it isn’t in your Jewish Bible.

Source, please.

Here is what Luther says about 2 Maccabees.

This book is called, and is supposed to be, the second book of Maccabees, as the title indicates. Yet this cannot be true, because it reports several incidents that happened before those reported in the first book, and it does not proceed any further than Judas Maccabaeus, that is, chapter 7 of the first book. It would be better to call this the first instead of the second book, unless one were to call it simply a second book and not the second book of Maccabees—another or different, certainly, but not second. But we include it anyway, for the sake of the good story of the seven Maccabean martyrs and their mother, and other things as well.

It appears, however, that the book has no single author, but was pieced together out of many books. It also presents a knotty problem in chapter 14:41–46] where Razis commits suicide, something which also troubles St. Augustine and the ancient fathers. Such an example is good for nothing and should not be praised, even though it may be tolerated and perhaps explained. So also in chapter 1 this book describes the death of Antiochus quite differently than does First Maccabees [6:1–16].

To sum up: just as it is proper for the first book to be included among the sacred Scriptures, so it is proper that this second book should be thrown out, even though it contains some good things. However the whole thing is left and referred to the pious reader to judge and to decide.

No mention of Purgatory. Luther references the early Fathers and their concerns. He mentions his concerns about its factual-ness, when compared to 1 Macc.
Luther’s point about Purgatory is not, Purgatory is found in 2 Macc, so throw it out. On the contrary, his point is the disputed nature of 2 Macc requires support from the universally attested books in order to require the binding of the conscience of believers to it.

I have the Lutheran edition of the DC books, and for the life of me, I can’t find a specific reference to Purgatory.

Jon

 

[Gorgias]

However, is there just a void there now, does it still exist ? Not sure. I would think it does not exist anymore for certainly no one is there any more. Paradise/Abraham’s Bosom has been vacated.

Correct; the raison d’etre of “Abraham’s Bosom” (a.k.a. the ‘limbus patrum’) no longer exists. It was, but it is no longer.

The gehenna/hell part remains with its lost,unrighteous souls.

Quite right: that state of existence continues.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Hi KC,

Well, I do believe God purifies instantly when we are born again, when He enters us, and we die in that water baptism. What happens at death is the final stamp on what happened at baptism…You do not purify that which died at water baptism. You do not purify the old nature. The new nature has the righteousness of Christ imputed to it. You can not purify Christ’s righteousness.

At death this new nature, the new you goes to be with the Lord, as you are with Him now, in the spirit. Now under His covering you still need to be judged/ purged of hay and stubble ( as he also does now), and I believe that happens also later one final time , after death, after being in heaven and just before our “marriage”.

Okay, hold everything. We’re purified after being in heaven? Have I understood you correctly on that?

 

[zz912]

Well I think it takes place in heaven or wherever John had his revelation or was taken to.
No I do not think the purification spoken of (seat of Christ) takes place before “entry” but takes place just before the Marriage (just as a bride is purified just before wedding).

Blessings

This is completely unbiblical. Scripture is explicit. Nothing unclean can enter Heaven. It’s impossible to be purified in Heaven. Purification must happen before we enter Heaven.

 

[zz912]

Yes Not sure,would have to reread etc.

This seems to be an important point. Please follow up when you can.

The only thing that has changed is that Paradise,or Abraham’s Bosom "moved’, was taken captive by the Lord after His resurrection and took them up to heaven as the gates were now open. What remained was the place of torment, gehenna/hell and will be cast into lake of fire,which may be the same thing.

In Revelation, Hades is thrown into hell at the Second Coming.

 

[benhur]

Correct; the raison d’etre of “Abraham’s Bosom” (a.k.a. the ‘limbus patrum’) no longer exists. It was, but it is no longer.

Quite right: that state of existence continues.

Cool, we agree.Thanks

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Okay, hold everything. We’re purified after being in heaven? Have I understood you correctly on that?

Yes and no. We are pure in Christ (now) , yet we go through judgement seat of Christ after we are in heaven (purged of hay and stubble and rewarded accordingly for good and bad), just before marriage and His reign on the earth, and I think after our resurrection.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

This is completely unbiblical. Scripture is explicit. Nothing unclean can enter Heaven. It’s impossible to be purified in Heaven. Purification must happen before we enter Heaven.

Correct, nothing unclean enters, and call not unclean what God has cleaned, and that by His blood and washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit.That is scriptural . Do you have a problem with Christ’s righteousness being imputed to you ?

It seems clear to me that the judgement seat of Christ for believers, that Day, does not take place and has not been taking place forthe past 2000 years upon a believers death, His rewards/loss for us have not been given out yet.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

This seems to be an important point. Please follow up when you can.

I think Gorgias cleared it up in a few posts before this, that preaching is not typical understamnding here but means more a heralding.

Yes hades is cast into the lake of fire. Does it mean that hell is cast into hell, or that the pershed souls from hades are cast into (back into?) the lake of fire ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I believe it is spoken of in 2 Maccabees. Reformers didn’t like the book so dubbed it not inspired, thus it isn’t in your Jewish Bible.

There are many things spoken of by Jewish leaders in the bible (anyones0 that are not to be taken as doctrine, or that were clrified by our Lord. Not sure you can make much of Mac 2 and purgatory correctly, even if you think the leaders did at that time.The trouble is the fallen committed a major offense in mac 2, and were presumably punished by God harshly with defeat and death, for possessing idols etc. That would be like saying mortal sin may not stop ones positive judgement on that Day (that mortal sin can be expunged in purgatory).

blessings