Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory?

[chesterlab]

I agree with your assessment on purgatory. It took me a long time to come to terms with it as I came out of an evangelical Anglican background, but I am at peace with it now and your depiction of purgatory is what I was taught at RCIA by our wonderful canon, who chose to teach our class rather than lay people. It was an honor and we had countless hours of discussion of doctrine and Christian history. I was very lucky to have the best so I could pick his brain and he loved it because some of us actually showed interest

 

[Gorgias]

Ok That is what confused me with limbo was the child one. So do you still say limbo for limbus patrum, or not ? or if you do qualify it as for patriarchs as you say ?

When referring to the “limbus patrum”, I’d never call it ‘limbo’, since that would cause confusion. So, usually, unless I was describing the whole ‘limbo’ thing, I’d just call it “Abraham’s Bosom”…

 

[Gorgias]

Nobody can be saved without the Catholic faith!

If a Buddhist does not willfully reject the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but is compelled to do His will in deed, then they have saving Catholic faith.

The way that this is usually expressed is in terms of ‘explicit’ or ‘implicit’ acceptance of God. A Buddhist (who has never been exposed to Christian doctrine) cannot be said to have accepted ‘Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ per se, so cannot be said to have willfully accepted or rejected the Trinity. On the other hand, the question is really whether he accepts God as he understands Him.

What we fall short of accepting of the Catholic faith in deed here in this world yet is not worthy of damnation from Christ the judge, will be forces upon our soul during our judgment from Him.

I think you meant to write “what we fall short of accepting… in this world… will be forced upon our soul during our judgment from [Christ].” That’s not what the Church teaches. There is no ‘forcing’ of acceptance of God, either during this life or after it.

 

[rcwitness]

The way that this is usually expressed is in terms of ‘explicit’ or ‘implicit’ acceptance of God. A Buddhist (who has never been exposed to Christian doctrine) cannot be said to have accepted ‘Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ per se, so cannot be said to have willfully accepted or rejected the Trinity. On the other hand, the question is really whether he accepts God as he understands Him.

No arguments. I think i wrote in a hurry and did not articulate myself very well.

I think you meant to write “what we fall short of accepting… in this world… will be forced upon our soul during our judgment from [Christ].” That’s not what the Church teaches. There is no ‘forcing’ of acceptance of God, either during this life or after it.

I didn’t mean ‘forcing’ as God disregarding our wills, but rather that We will be forced to confront God because He will confront us. We will be drawn to His perfection while our “sins” and “shortcomings” and “resistance” will be “exposed” and “revealed”. In This way, i meant we will be forced to acknowledge our faults and their consequences.

I sometimes imagine what it would have been like if Peter would have died after denying Jesus. He would have an experience of great purging because he did not have his time of Reconciliation and bitter remorse in this world.

 

[benhur]

When referring to the “limbus patrum”, I’d never call it ‘limbo’, since that would cause confusion. So, usually, unless I was describing the whole ‘limbo’ thing, I’d just call it “Abraham’s Bosom”…

Ok.i prefer purgatory .Abraham’s Bosom is too fixed for me,easir to understand . No where do we see any suffering there. Maybe the CC means it was vacated with Jesus taking them to heaven , and God turned it into purgatory, borrowed some of the fires" from hell/gehenna ? Help me, do not recall what article said.Thanks

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Purgatory is to purge us of any imperfection that stops us from entering heaven.

How do you know imperfect nature is left behind at the grave? How does that happen? Are you, right now at this very instant, perfect? If you were to die right now, how do your imperfections get “left behind at the grave”? Can you quote me scripture to support this idea?

Well, you seem to agree here there is a need for purgation, but you’re still not clear on exactly when and how this happens.

So at the Final Judgment we suffer loss for bad? After we’re in heaven? Doesn’t sound like a perfect heaven to me if we can suffer there.

Please go into detail how Revelation 22 shows this judgment “takes place at end times, not at death of believer.” I don’t see anything whatsoever in that chapter that says so.

“In Your Life Is Worth Living Fulton Sheen expands this idea better, but the long and the short is that the Catholic understanding is that there is a double judgement. The first is the private judgement, from there you go to heaven, hell, or purgatory where you await the final judgement. It is at the final, public judgement that we will see the old order finally pass away and only after that will we truly enter eternity.”

“For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee”.2COR 5

Just a few things I found. The latter shows that it is more about His life swallowing us up ,and not further dying beyond baptism, and at death. Also our “spirits” go up to heaven, and to me that is the revived, reborn, new man, not the old man/flesh.

 

[opulumpu]

Nobody had been to Heaven until Jesus ascended and opened Its gates. Where were Moses and Elijah before they appeared with Jesus in His Transfiguration. They could not have been in hell otherwise Jesus would have nothing to do with them. They could not have been in Heaven because the gates were not open. Where were they?

They were in PURGATORY!!. Believe and accept the teachings of the Church.

 

[Kay_Cee]

“In Your Life Is Worth Living Fulton Sheen expands this idea better, but the long and the short is that the Catholic understanding is that there is a double judgement. The first is the private judgement, from there you go to heaven, hell, or purgatory where you await the final judgement. It is at the final, public judgement that we will see the old order finally pass away and only after that will we truly enter eternity.”

Would you please post the exact quote from Bishop Sheen? I highly doubt he said all those in Purgatory will wait until the Final Judgment before entering heaven, which is what you imply here.

“For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee”.2COR 5

Just a few things I found. The latter shows that it is more about His life swallowing us up ,and not further dying beyond baptism, and at death. Also our “spirits” go up to heaven, and to me that is the revived, reborn, new man, not the old man/flesh.

Now I’m very confused. First you imply there’s a cleansing at the moment of death (for which I asked scriptural support that you did not provide) and then you implied there’s punishment in heaven.

Why don’t we do this? Why don’t you walk me through the process? Let’s say there’s a guy name Joe, and although he’s not perfect, he’s a Christian who is trying to please God. Let’s say one day Joe is crossing the street and gets hit by a bus. Let’s also say for the sake of argument that Joe is definitely not going to Hell.

What exactly happens when Joe dies? Would you go through this in order, please? Like this:

1. Joe dies
2. What happens to Joe next
3. And so forth

Then maybe this will all be clear to me.

Thanks!

P.S. I’m going to be incredibly busy the next two weeks, so please excuse me if I can’t get back to you right away.

 

[benhur]

Would you please post the exact quote from Bishop Sheen? I highly doubt he said all those in Purgatory will wait until the Final Judgment before entering heaven, which is what you imply here.

 

[benhur]

Nobody had been to Heaven until Jesus ascended and opened Its gates. Where were Moses and Elijah before they appeared with Jesus in His Transfiguration. They could not have been in hell otherwise Jesus would have nothing to do with them. They could not have been in Heaven because the gates were not open. Where were they?

They were in PURGATORY!!. Believe and accept the teachings of the Church.

Hi

Well, just that nobody called it purgatory for a thousand years. It was scripturally called Paradise or Abraham’s Bosom. Agree, that was not heaven , as you suggest the gates still being closed. (Yet Enoch and maybe Elijah were up there ?)

Hades, sheol and hell can be referred to as the common "grave’’. Jesus descended into “hell”. I find it difficult to say He did not preach to all there both in torment and those comforted. That is, your “purgatory” , Abraham’s Bosom or Paradise, were in hell/hades/sheol. Within hell was gehenna, the place of torment. There was a “gulf” between the two places (the good place and the bad place) as per Lazarus/rich man story.

Blessings

 

[Gorgias]

Nobody had been to Heaven until Jesus ascended and opened Its gates. Where were Moses and Elijah before they appeared with Jesus in His Transfiguration. They could not have been in hell otherwise Jesus would have nothing to do with them. They could not have been in Heaven because the gates were not open. Where were they?

They were in PURGATORY!!. Believe and accept the teachings of the Church.

No, that’s not what the Church teaches; she teaches that they were in “Abraham’s Bosom”, where the righteous dead awaited the coming of Christ.

 

[steve_b]

benhur,

Thanks for the suggestion.

I took your suggestion and brought the following post over to this thread #105

 

[zz912]

Kay Cee;13203117:

The quote is kind of straightforward .The bishop is saying there are two judgements for us all. He states that after death we (immediately) either go to hell, purgatory, or eventually or maybe right away heaven. Then later at the end times there will be the great white throne judgement for non believers, and the judgement seat of Christ or what the bishop refers to the final judgement(s). He does not mean that those in purgatory have to wait to get to heaven till the final judgement.

I think this is important to understand the two judgements. Then you might understand where I and others have a slight scriptural connection to what you say might be purgatory. That is, some of the scriptures folks use for purgatory might really be referring to the "final’ judgement " that is by fire. Another words we may say there is not purgatory, only heaven or hell immediately after we die, but their is the “final judgement”, as if by fire, at end times.

catholic.com/quickquestions/how-can-there-be-a-general-judgment-and-a-particular-judgment

The purpose of the general judgment is not to redetermine one’s standing with God but to reveal the full ramifications of all our good and bad deeds in relation to other people. Although we will know instantly all the good and the bad we have done at our particular judgment, only at the general judgment will we see what effect the way we lived had on others and thus truly understand the ultimate significance of our moral acts.

catholic.com/encyclopedia/divine-judgment

 

[benhur]

Hi steve, thanks for the switch over to this thread.

Even though Jews knew about hell and heaven, it was in types and shadows. Jews didn’t have the full understanding…yet. But they did know that praying for the dead is a good thing. So they knew, somehow the dead benefited from prayer.

Ok. I will boomerang off that. Maybe they did not have as full of understanding as we. But for sure they had more light on praying for those still on this side of life, with very few examples of praying for dead. Honoring them yes, but praying for ? I know it is in Mac2 . I know they had funeral prayers and yearly "honoring’ in their tradition later on.

Before the NT was written, when Jesus referred to “it is written”, He’s speaking of the OT. So Jesus is speaking of what His hearers would know based on what they knew was written.

Does Jesus mention purgatory or praying for dead ? Or on the contrary, in his best story of life on the other side He makes it clear now is the day to live righteously or or not, and what you reap you shall sow, and folks on this side can not help you on the other side.

Jews knew about gehenna and they knew about paradise. Put simply, both are permanent.

Well not sure if paradise is still there or is it “empty” Or I think CC teaches it became or is or always was “purgatory” though Abraham was quite comfortable.

So why pray for the dead? Who is it that they think benefits from prayer? Malachi 3 describes a process of one being purified, that is temporary but after the process, they are clearly purified . It doesn’t say “purgatory” but it sure sounds like it

Yes, it might seem that way but it is not . As the Bishop Sheen quote some posts above shows, there is the "final public "judgement at end times (and not the private judgement that immediately sends us to hell, purgatory, or heaven).We call it the judgement seat of Christ , where our works in Christ will be judged, and we will be rewarded accordingly and our chaff burned away.

" Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is." 1Cor, 3:11

So apparently according to CC you may go thru two fires, two judgements

A person who dies but has baggage… not mortal sin on their soul mind you, but a person who dies in the state of grace, but needs purification, since nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Revelation 21:27

Yes this ties into the temple and having to be "purified’’. Again a reference to the judgement seat of Christ perhaps and not purgatory. Rev. says nothing about purification by fire but says that you must be written in book of life and you will not lie or abominate etc. . Your carnal flesh, nature , that has been crucified with Christ will not be there. The new man will be swallowed up in Christ , and we will be like Him and we shall enter the temple

1 Cor 3: 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day** will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Paul does NOT describe a soul that is condemned. A soul going to hell won’t go through that. A soul who dies in mortal sin goes straight to hell. There is no 2nd chance. And purgatory is not a 2nd chance

Correct. It is for believers and some say ''leaders" as those building upon apostles work (even your Malachi quote says the Levis, leaders, will be judged in such fashion. Yet I would say we all build and are part of the building and are priests, so i think it is for all believers).

The mortal sin thing is why i think Mac 2 is bad example, for they prayed for those who dies in mortal sin, for a better resurrection.

Paul describes a process that only the soul who is already saved goes through. They are going to heaven after this process but not before this process of purification takes place.

There is no indication from Paul that this takes place before heaven . The “day” most say is the final judgement day ,often referred to as that great day , or that day etc… He twice refers to the judgement seat of Christ.

Also rev 22:12 says Christ at end times will come with His rewards,and they have nothing to do with "destination, Those in hell remain,those in heaven remain,then come the rewards.

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be”.

See the rewards both in Paul’s quote and Rev.

Blessings**

 

[opulumpu]

No, that’s not what the Church teaches; she teaches that they were in “Abraham’s Bosom”, where the righteous dead awaited the coming of Christ.

What is “Abraham’s Bossom” …a place, a condition or really Abraham’s Bossom. Does righteous mean not having any stain on their souls, completely purified. If they had a little stain on their souls, were they purified before going into Abraham’s Bossom and if they were purified before going into Abraham’s Bossom, where were they purified. Will sure like to know what the Church means and teaches by Abraham’s Bossom.

And what about the righteous that died before Abraham; where were they staying before Abraham’s Bossom became available.

 

[steve_b]

Ok. I will boomerang off that. Maybe they did not have as full of understanding as we. But for sure they had more light on praying for those still on this side of life, with very few examples of praying for dead. Honoring them yes, but praying for ? I know it is in Mac2 .

Does Jesus mention purgatory or praying for dead ?

When Paul wrote
1 Cor 3: 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day**(“1 - - Bible Gateway Corinthians+3&version=RSVCE#fen-RSVCE-32582b”)] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

• The HS taught that to Paul John 14:25-26 .
• The HS got that from Jesus. John 16:12-15 .

This shows Jesus taught of purification after death but before heaven. Catholics call that purgatory

BTW, That process only happens for one judged as saved.
bh:

Or on the contrary, in his best story of life on the other side He makes it clear now is the day to live righteously or or not, and what you reap you shall sow, and folks on this side can not help you on the other side.

Re: the rich man and hell, that’s true. It’s useless to pray for those in hell
That particular story didn’t include any purification process. So that’s not the story I would use for understanding purgatory
bh:

Well not sure if paradise is still there or is it “empty” Or I think CC teaches it became or is or always was “purgatory” though Abraham was quite comfortable.

The intent of that story was to show

• Abraham’s bosom is a place of rest,
• the rich man is in torment. i/e gehenna

it’s not meant to show purgatory
bh:

Yes, it might seem that way but it is not . As the Bishop Sheen quote some posts above shows, there is the "final public "judgement at end times (and not the private judgement that immediately sends us to hell, purgatory, or heaven).

Bp Sheen does not deny that when we die we are immediately judged. We don’t have to wait for the final judgment to know where we will spend eternity.
bh:

" Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is." 1Cor, 3:11

So apparently according to CC you may go thru two fires, two judgements

that shows the soul who is judged to be saved but goes through purification. The soul who is damned goes straight to hell
bh:

Yes this ties into the temple and having to be "purified’’. Again a reference to the judgement seat of Christ perhaps and not purgatory.

**WE **are the temple spoken of there [3.16](1 - - Bible Gateway Corinthians+3&version=RSVCE#en-RSVCE-32585) ]
bh:

Rev. says nothing about purification by fire but says that you must be written in book of life and you will not lie or abominate etc. .

Rev: is clear. the unclean won’t enter heaven.
bh:

Your carnal flesh, nature , that has been crucified with Christ will not be there. The new man will be swallowed up in Christ , and we will be like Him and we shall enter the temple

The soul is immortal from conception. It does not die, it doesn’t sleep, It lives forever. The question is for everyone, where will they be at the instant of their death of the body.
bh:

1 Cor 3: 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day** will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. **15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Correct. It is for believers and some say ''leaders" as those building upon apostles work (even your Malachi quote says the Levis, leaders, will be judged in such fashion. Yet I would say we all build and are part of the building and are priests, so i think it is for all believers).

The quote from Corinthians talks only of the one who is judged to be saved and goes through purification. It does NOT talk of the one who is damned
bh:

There is no indication from Paul that this takes place before heaven

. The “day” most say is the final judgement day ,often referred to as that great day , or that day etc… He twice refers to the judgement seat of Christ.

It most certainly takes place before heaven

(1 - - Bible Gateway Corinthians+3&version=RSVCE#fen-RSVCE-32582b)] = [3.13](1 - - Bible Gateway Corinthians+3&version=RSVCE#en-RSVCE-32582) the Day: i.e., the day of the Lord: God’s searching judgment, i.e. the day we die and are judged by Jesus

Blessings in return

 

[IGotQuestions]

Great answers folks.
Thanks!

 

[eazyduzit]

I have not read all the responses so forgive me if I derail the thread a bit, but I wanted to share my understanding and rationalization of purgatory.

Our Father in Heaven is perfect. No unclean or imperfect thing can dwell with Him in heaven. But, Jesus died for our sins and paid the penalty for any and all sins which, as imperfect humans, we cannot do for ourselves. However, while the penalty of sin, death, has been paid once we accept it, we are NOT cleansed of the desire to sin.
This is why the ‘once saved, always saved’ system breaks down. Yes, I am a sinner. Yes, Jesus paid for my sins, but guess what. I am STILL a sinner. I can’t go to heaven until my heart toward is so pure that 1) I don’t want to sin, ever, even for the tiny eensy little sins I think, but don’t say or do, and 2) I can’t even commit a sin by accident. That means even when someone cuts me off on the highway or I stub my toe, I am incapable of even thinking of uttering a curse.
I recon that very few have achieved that level of perfection while on earth. Yet we are promised heaven for our faith in Christ. Enter purgatory, a way station to cleanse our souls of the slightest bit of sinfulness to perfect us to be in His presence for all eternity. God is so faithful that He will take all the time that is necessary to get us to Him.

Sorry that i am only now getting back to review this thread. I’m learning a lot about why people want to believe in purgatory. (It’s not only Catholics) . Here are some misconceptions.

1. If you have been born again, then you are not a sinner anymore. You have a new spirit. You are a member of the body of Christ in which there can be no sin.
   Salvation includes much more than just forgiveness.

2.The qualification for heaven is not about sins, but about faith in Christ.

1. When we die,it is our spirit that departs, not the flesh. But it was the flesh that did the sinning. The Bible states that there are three ways in which we sin. Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life. These are plainly things of the flesh. How are you going to fix it in the spirit? I hope you will agree that is absurd.

 

[zz912]

1. If you have been born again, then you are not a sinner anymore. You have a new spirit. You are a member of the body of Christ in which there can be no sin.
   Salvation includes much more than just forgiveness.

I’m sorry, but this is just wrong. Jesus’ parable of the true vine destroys this personal theology you have created. Jesus commands His true believers to REMAIN in Him.

Your personal theology claims that a person cannot leave Him, which Jesus obviously disagrees with.

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 **You are already clean **because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches.** If **you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 **If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. **7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[Techno2000]

1. When we die,it is our spirit that departs, not the flesh. But it was the flesh that did the sinning. The Bible states that there are three ways in which we sin. Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life. These are plainly things of the flesh. How are you going to fix it in the spirit? I hope you will agree that is absurd.

How can a soul burn?

By a just and express permission of God, the soul which is the real culprit (for the body only obeys the soul) suffers as if the body were suffering. Have you ever seen any evil committed by a dead body?
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6253