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benhur
Guest
Nor by any name. The closest is “judgement”, which is an event not a “state of being”.
Blessings
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Blessings
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benhur
Guest
Any link to the popes points against purgatory ? Thanks
Blessings
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Tomdstone
Guest
Not true according to the book on EWTN Read Me or Rue it:
“WHAT IS PURGATORY?
It is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain.”
…
APPROVAL OF HIS EMINENCE THE CARDINAL PATRIARCH OF LISBON
Cardinal’s Palace, Lisbon March 4, 1936
We approve and recommend with all our heart the beautiful little book Read
Me or Rue It by E. D. M. [These initials used by Fr. O’Sullivan stand for
Engant de Marie, that is, “Child of Mary” Ed.]
Although small, it is destined to do great good among Catholics, many of
whom are incredibly ignorant of the great doctrine of Purgatory. As a
consequence, they do little or nothing to avoid it themselves and little to
help the Poor Souls who are suffering there so intensely, waiting for the
Masses and prayers which should be offered for them.
It is our earnest desire that every Catholic should read this little book
and spread it about as widely as possible.APPROVAL OF HIS EMINENCE THE CARDINAL PATRIARCH OF LISBON
Cardinal’s Palace, Lisbon March 4, 1936
ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT
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benhur
Guest
Hi Kay
Do not follow you. All we know is to live by the Word of God. And of course we are admonished to rightly divide, not to add or detract. We both believe in heaven and hell and they are explicit in the Word and is something quite universal affecting every human. So can you blame someone for questioning purgatory and its relative slim foundation ( compared to heaven and hell), and something so universal and general possibility for all human beings ?
Blessings
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benhur
Guest
Hi Hockey Puck,
Not sure I follow but are you saying "purgatory " word evolved thru in 12 th century ? I did say much evolved and I find it difficult to believe the apostles practiced it the way CC did say 1500 years later. I know it is in Macabbees , but for many that is slim foundation.
Certainly NT and Jesus shed more light on the matter, as he did to many things folks believed in traditionally.
For me, it is not so much the scant light on purgatory but the overwhelming light on the efficacy of Calvary and His shed blood and the many scriptures on perfection and cleansing and righteousness we have in Christ, and His Word. I also think our eventual "judgement’’ has been taken out of context regarding the application of the purgatory doctrine and it eventual practices.
Blessings
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benhur
Guest
Am I correct in continually noting the narrow CC definition of purgatory and the wide application, almost misapplication (as it is “practiced”) ?
Blessings
M
MatthewTrainor
Guest
“Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.” 2 Thes 2:15
(FYI - Denial of oral tradition as a source for doctrine and theology detracts from scripture)
Purgatory is not so much a place as a known process of purification prior to entry into heaven because “nothing unclean will enter it.” Rev 21:27
See Purgatory and The Roots of Purgatory for more detail.
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benhur
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Hi MT
Yes but I would be careful about that quote for the testament writing was not complete. When it was later we have Paul’s buddy Barnabus writing, "It is well, that he who has learned the judgements of the Lord (tradition?), as many as have been written, should walk in them. "
Agreed to the misconception of it being a place (though you must be “somewhere”) and that it is a “state” or as you say process. I think it more scriptural to call it what it is , “judgement” of our christian works (and not to get into heaven for we have been there waiting for the second advent and His Kingly rule ). Hence I agree with those who say it is a place, the Judgement Seat of Christ at end times, and an event (more than process or state) our works being judged, with loss or rewards to follow, even appointments for ruling with Him, as Paul states.
As far as purity, we are cleansed , for God is in us, so see no problem of we being with Him, thru faith in Christ and His cleansing work.
Blessings
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benhur
Guest
Well we are straying but the adding or subtracting if it was in OT then must be about keeping what has been given "pure’ and not that future revelation , in form of writ would be given (unless the admonition is in Malachi-last OT book).
Blessings
Blessings
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CatholicHockey7
Guest
Yes, I was specifically referencing the evolution of the word and not the doctrine. In the same way we do not find words like “trinity” or “communion” or “eucharist” as we understand them today being used in Scripture.
Can you explain what you mean about how our judgement has been taken out of context related to purgatory?
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zz912
Guest
The Bible is NOT the Word of God. It is the word of God.
And Jesus actually tells us to listen to the Church He built. The same Church which tells you which books belong in the word of God.
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zz912
Guest
Abraham’s Bosom, prison, Hades. Lots of names. None of those is an event.
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phil19034
Guest
Ben - let me ask you a question. Do you understand that when someone goes through Purgatory that means they are saved? On your particular day of Judgement you will be sent to Heaven or hell.
Purgatory is a kin to going home to get your hair done (or a hair cut for men), take a shower, and put on a tux or formal dress before going to a ball. Just because we are clean, doesn’t mean that we go to a ball straight form work without taking a shower.
Same thing with going to Heaven. We need to prepare ourselves to share in the beatific vision. We need to bath in the fire of God’s Love for us to become Glorified with Christ before we step through those Pearly Gates. Going to Heaven is a bigger deal than attending the Presidential Inauguration Dinner… If people go a out for that, why wouldn’t we want to be our best when we meet God the Father after Christ’s judgment of us?
God Bless
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phil19034
Guest
Hello Ben,
This post pretty much sums up that you misunderstand the theology of purgatory & prayer for the dead.
First - as a Catholic for 38 years (though I was not a practicing one for part of that), I have never been “manipulated” to pray for anything or anyone. I pray for those I love to be in Heaven. If they are already there great, no harm is done. My prayers are not wasted because my prayers also bring me closer to God.
Praying for the dead has NO impact on anyone’s judgment if God has determined that hell is the destination. However, intercessory prayers MIGHT have a positive effect if God hasn’t made up His mind yet. If many prayers are submitted before someone’s judgement, God may listen to the prayers of the Faithful and consider granting Mercy due to the Love poured out for the sinner. Likewise, the prayers of the Faithful may help a soul in purgatory, the same why a loud cheering, home crowd can often help an exhausted athlete finish the race or game in a strong fashion.
When we pray for one another, it is one of (if not the most) greatest forms of Love. God is Pure Love. And nothing pleases God more than when we love one another, as He loves us.
Finally, the afterlife is outside space and time. Because of this, My prayers today for my Grandfather’s soul can be given to my Grandfather back in 1978, when he died.
For God and the people in Heaven they see Earth’s future, past and present all at the same time. It’s kind of like the scene in Interstellar when the lead character is outside space and time and can see his daughter at different moments in time by simply moving around.
The theory of relativity and quantum mechanics… Proving God’s existence every day, even if the atheists are to blind to realize it.
God Bless
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benhur
Guest
and ? Your catechism says purgatory is not a place, which the above are.
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benhur
Guest
Ok .Thank you.
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benhur
Guest
yes understand thank you. Just that when judgement of a saved person is mentioned as by Paul, it is not a judgement of where we are going, heaven or hell. As I stated before, we will already be in heaven on that Day of Judgement of our works in Christ. The purging of false works takes place at end times, not when we die(unless you die just before Christ’s return).
The preparation you speak of takes place at Calvary, and our new nature is perfect in Christ. Certainly those not believing in purgatory do not think they go into heaven “unpure”, or with uncleansed “sin”.
Blessings
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benhur
Guest
Hi Phi
First of all thanks for sharing on your praying and may I treat it as holy ground. Not sure that God has not made up his mind on some as to there destination. I thought you were going to say you pray to have an impact on there stay in purgatory only. As I posted earlier, is it fair that some get more prayer than others, like a famous person, or like a rich person here might get a little more justice down here on earth ? I thought one reaps what they sow (good and bad). Can you really affect the reaping of what one has already sowed ?
But yes love for the brethren, even in prayer, especially those who are still with us and are still sowing.
I just finished watching Interstellar for the 3rd time (twice at Imax ) and once at home blasting my theater speakers). Did you notice they could effect history but could not change what has already happened ? I believe you can not pray someone into hell heaven or from purgatory once they are deceased.
I think the afterlife still has a time or at least a timeline element, and they do not know or see into the future not yet. Maybe when we have our resurrected bodies and we shall be like HIm.
How about Star wars and when they go into hyper speed and for a moment all the stars turn into almost one big white light. Is that when one approaches the speed of light, is that like approaching God who is “light” and will be our light in the new Jerusalem ?
Blessings
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CatholicHockey7
Guest
Hey Chariot Boy! I’m still waiting for a response to my question above! lol
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phil19034
Guest
In regards to my comment about God having not made up his mind, what I meant is this: some are predestined to Heaven, but no one is predestined to hell. We never know if our last second pray MIGHT help save a sinner. Maybe it doesn’t. People do reap what they sow, especially those who reject God. God doesn’t force us to love Him. The people who put themselves in hell will reap what they sow. But I think SOMETIMES God takes our prayers into consideration. Why? Because the fact that we are praying for that person typically means that maybe they did something right on earth and that they were loved.
In regards to time spent in Purgatory changing or not changing based on our prayers… I think that our prayers for the people in Purgatory are more “emotional” help for the souls in Purgatory. Waiting can be very hard for us. For example, sitting around the shop for for your car to be fixed, waiting at the drivers license place for your new license, waiting for your day in court, waiting for your a decision on an annulment – waiting can be difficult. Now, can you imagine waiting to met God the Father??? Imagine waking up as a kid on Christmas morning at 4AM and seeing all the presents under the tree, but having to wait until 8AM to open them. Now multiple that feeling by infinity. That’s the true suffering of purgatory… the waiting.
On earth, sometimes other people helps us trough the waiting period. Being with others help us to not feel lonely. I think our prayers for the people in purgatory help them more that way, than anything else, letting them know that they are not alone and that we love them.
That’s not to say, that I don’t think sometimes our prayers help shorten someone’s time in purification. I do. I think our prayers help because I believe the fire of Purgatory is the Fire of Love. And God is Love. The more we pray for the dead, the more love they receive, hence the greater and hotter the fire. The hotter the Fire of Love, the faster it burns away the imperfections.
yes, they effect history but they could not change what has already happened. That is exactly correct. My prayer 20 years from now could be used to help my grandfather while in Purgatory 30 years ago. My prayer effects history but doesn’t change what has already happened. I believe it’s the same concept. God can use the prayers you make for the human race and apply them to conversion of someone’s heart 1000 years ago. I’m sure our prayers today and the prayers of future Christians helped the Apostles 2000 years ago.
One thing we know, thanks to Einstein (and God who created him), is that time is relative. I do not think that the souls in Heaven know their future, relative to their positions in Heaven. I believe that they do have a “timeline” that is relative to them. However, their time is not relative to earth. They are outside Earth’s space-time continuum. So if that’s true, perhaps they can see our multiple potential futures and that’s where their intercessory prayer comes in. Perhaps they can intercede on our behalf regarding how things unfold?
I don’t know… right know I’m just spewing a lot of theological theory.
However, I do know this. God loves us infinitely. God also has a thing about fire. Our Sun (a star) is enormous (and it’s just a average size star). There are billions of stars in our galaxy. And there are billions of galaxies. We would not be here without the fire of our Sun. Fire may be cause destructive damage to forests, etc.; but it also cleanses the earth and allows new life to thrive. It’s also interesting that we don’t have light without fire. Perhaps fire truly is the physical manifestation of God’s Love (after all, Moses did talk to a Burning Bush). And maybe, just maybe, God’s Love within us is why we are warm blooded too.
Thanks be to God for He is all Good and all Love. May His Divine Mercy be granted upon us and the whole world. Amen.
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