Why do Catholics believe in Purgatory?

[Kay_Cee]

Hi Kay

Do not follow you. All we know is to live by the Word of God. And of course we are admonished to rightly divide, not to add or detract. We both believe in heaven and hell and they are explicit in the Word and is something quite universal affecting every human. So can you blame someone for questioning purgatory and its relative slim foundation ( compared to heaven and hell), and something so universal and general possibility for all human beings ?

Blessings

Of course I don’t have a problem with you questioning anything.

However, you seem to believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that the Word of God is limited to the Bible. If that is the case, I have to ask you where the Bible states that the Word of God is limited to the Bible. (Please provide book, chapter, and verse.) If the Bible doesn’t say the Word of God is limited to the Bible, where do you get the belief that it is? Wouldn’t that be adding a belief that is not in the Bible, something you seem to condemn yourself? (Quote: “And of course we are admonished to rightly divide, not to add or detract.”)

You don’t seem to see that your statement doesn’t fit its own criterion. You have a problem with Purgatory not being explicit in the Bible, but your own belief that a doctrine should be explicit in the Bible is itself not explicit in the Bible.

Follow me now?

 

[zz912]

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz912 View Post
Abraham’s Bosom, prison, Hades. Lots of names. None of those is an event.

and ? Your catechism says purgatory is not a place, which the above are.

They are a place? Could you give me directions to any of these places? Can we visit them?

 

[benhur]

Hey Chariot Boy! I’m still waiting for a response to my question above! lol

I think the judgement seat of Christ is the closest thing to “purgatory”. Below is a radio clip dealing with it. Blessings

moodymedia.org/radio-programs/running-to-win-25/the-king-judges-us-part-1/#.VcZuaRjB1zI

 

[benhur]

The Bible is NOT the Word of God. It is the word of God.

And Jesus actually tells us to listen to the Church He built. The same Church which tells you which books belong in the word of God.

Of course the bible is not the only word of God, but it is still the Word of God. I do not rule out prophets, or prophecy, or a Rhema word, nor oral transmission.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Abraham’s Bosom, prison, Hades. Lots of names. None of those is an event.

No but it takes a judgement to get into the for the latter two permanently (Great White Throne Judgement). And believers have the Judgement Seat of Christ where we answer to our Lord for the things we have done in Him.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

They are a place? Could you give me directions to any of these places? Can we visit them?

Are you saying the CC does not say Hades, and paradise are (were for paradise) not real places ?

 

[benhur]

You don’t seem to see that your statement doesn’t fit its own criterion. You have a problem with Purgatory not being explicit in the Bible, but your own belief that a doctrine should be explicit in the Bible is itself not explicit in the Bible.

Follow me now?

Not sure, but Paul was telling the truth when he said scripture is profitable for doctrine.

 

[benhur]

In regards to time spent in Purgatory changing or not changing based on our prayers… I think that our prayers for the people in Purgatory are more “emotional” help for the souls in Purgatory. Waiting can be very hard for us. For example, sitting around the shop for for your car to be fixed, waiting at the drivers license place for your new license, waiting for your day in court, waiting for your a decision on an annulment – waiting can be difficult. Now, can you imagine waiting to met God the Father??? Imagine waking up as a kid on Christmas morning at 4AM and seeing all the presents under the tree, but having to wait until 8AM to open them. Now multiple that feeling by infinity. That’s the true suffering of purgatory… the waiting.

I would think,taking your car repair shop analogy, yes the waiting for diagnosis is anxious but the real suffering comes when they tell you what is wrong with your car. Beyond that do not know of any waiting.

Gotta go , blessings,finish later

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

cause he mentions it a million other places ?

Apparently you haven’t been reading the Bible.

James 2:26

As a body without spirit is dead, thus FAITH without GOOD WORKS is DEAD.

 

[benhur]

Apparently you haven’t been reading the Bible.

James 2:26

As a body without spirit is dead, thus FAITH without GOOD WORKS is DEAD.

Thanks JB

Not an issue here about faith and works for both are mentioned in one place or another, sometimes together and sometimes not. But what do we do if only one is mentioned or mentioned explicitly, again, in the context of this thread, of heaven and hell mentioned explicitly many times and purgatory not at all explicitly ?

Blessings

 

[KjetilK]

The Bible proclaims there is only Heaven and Hell.

I’m pretty sure the Bible also proclaims the existence of dogs.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Not sure, but Paul was telling the truth when he said scripture is profitable for doctrine.

Profitable, yes. But is it the only source? Does scripture claim it is the only source?

Let me ask you a question. Is heaven 100% perfect?

 

[zz912]

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz912 View Post
Abraham’s Bosom, prison, Hades. Lots of names. None of those is an event.

No but it takes a judgement to get into the for the latter two permanently (Great White Throne Judgement). And believers have the Judgement Seat of Christ where we answer to our Lord for the things we have done in Him.

Blessings

What judgment had been given those in “prison” that Jesus went to preach to? Does Jesus preach many messages to those He’s already judged?

And where do you find this teaching that prison and Hades are permanent? The Bible says differently.

And could you spell out more where this teaching of a throne and a judging seat is in the Bible?

 

[zz912]

Thanks JB

Not an issue here about faith and works for both are mentioned in one place or another, sometimes together and sometimes not. But what do we do if only one is mentioned or mentioned explicitly, again, in the context of this thread, of heaven and hell mentioned explicitly many times and purgatory not at all explicitly ?

Blessings

Abraham’s Bosom, prison, and Hades are all mentioned explicitly. The premise of your argument is invalid.

 

[zz912]

Quote:
Originally Posted by benhur View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zz912 View Post
Abraham’s Bosom, prison, Hades. Lots of names. None of those is an event
.

and ? Your catechism says purgatory is not a place, which the above are.

They are a place? Could you give me directions to any of these places? Can we visit them?

Are you saying the CC does not say Hades, and paradise are (were for paradise) not real places ?

Don’t respond to my question with a deflection question of your own. Please answer my question. You claim they are a place. Please answer.

 

[benhur]

Profitable, yes. But is it the only source? Does scripture claim it is the only source?

Let me ask you a question. Is heaven 100% perfect?

Hi KC,

Scripture is not the only source for doctrine yet all doctrine is scriptural, even according to the CC. Even when “new” doctrine was first formulated at Jerusalem council it was “scriptural” as noted by James, and as articulated thru God via dream/vision /HS inspiration, of which then became “writ”/recorded.

Whether the only source or not and back to Paul , scripture can *perfectly and thoroughly *equip the believer for good works.

Of course heaven is perfect.

And let me ask you, did you not die in baptism and now are alive in Christ in the new women, and seated in heavenly places, now ? Does He not now, the perfect Godhead find residence in this new person, as in a temple , even a monstrance ?

Of course we still war with the old nature, but he will finally die at our death, and the the new woman goes onto heaven. And yes she will be judged for her works in Christ, but at the end times, at the Judgement Seat of Christ. And that may be what we refer to as purging or shedding hay and stubble.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Don’t respond to my question with a deflection question of your own. Please answer my question. You claim they are a place. Please answer.

Hi zz

Sorry, I thought you could infer that I believe that heaven and hell and paradise and Abraham’s Bosom were and are real places. I will also state I believe that is CC doctrine also.

Only purgatory is not a place, according to CC. I only stated the purging/judgement has to take place somewhere. Many call it the Judgement Seat of Christ.

Hope that is an accurate recap, though I am still wondering if you are questioning the existence of heaven /hell/ Paradise as place, or maybe I misundertsood you.

Blessings

 

[zz912]

Hi zz

Sorry, I thought you could infer that I believe that heaven and hell and paradise and Abraham’s Bosom were and are real places. I will also state I believe that is CC doctrine also.

Only purgatory is not a place, according to CC. I only stated the purging/judgement has to take place somewhere. Many call it the Judgement Seat of Christ.

Hope that is an accurate recap, though I am still wondering if you are questioning the existence of heaven /hell/ Paradise as place, or maybe I misundertsood you.

Blessings

Maybe you are misunderstanding what the CC means by a “real place”. Purgatory is real, but it is not some “place” in this universe. You can’t visit it. Neither can you visit Abraham’s Bosom. They are states of existence.

 

[benhur]

What judgment had been given those in “prison” that Jesus went to preach to? Does Jesus preach many messages to those He’s already judged?

That is a not so explicit scripture as to just what is meant by His “preaching” to those in the underworld/hades/grave/sheol. It is not clear that it was an “altar call” or place of decision

And where do you find this teaching that prison and Hades are permanent? The Bible says differently.

Have no idea what you think I meant. There is another thread dealing with whether hell/hades/fire is forever, if that what you are getting at. I think "hell’ is forever.

And could you spell out more where this teaching of a throne and a judging seat is in the Bible?

Yes, I would be happy to share .

“I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life” .John 5:24. We all agree to this, that “purgatory” is not about getting into heaven, that it is our destination thru faith in Christ.

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad”. 2 Cor5:10

“But thou, why judgest thou thy brother? or thou, why dost thou despise thy brother? For we shall all stand before *the judgment seat of Christ.” *Rom.14;10

“Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.” Gal 6;7 Can we change what one must reap ?

“because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free”. Eph 6;8

“Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.” Rev 22;12 See, this happens at end times, not when we die.

"Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, *will award to me on that Day, *and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
2Tim 4;8 Again at end times.

moodymedia.org/radio-programs/running-to-win-25/the-king-judges-us-part-1/#.VcZuaRjB1zI short radio teaching on this judgement

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Maybe you are misunderstanding what the CC means by a “real place”. Purgatory is real, but it is not some “place” in this universe. You can’t visit it. Neither can you visit Abraham’s Bosom. They are states of existence.

Ok. I posted it is not a place but a state of existence. So when I say it is not a place I am not saying there is not purgatory , per say. I am not denying what happens in that “state”. I also questioned the idea that how can one not be in a “place”, whatever your “state” is.

I beg to differ on Abraham’s bosom /paradise as a place you could not “visit”. To me that is like saying Jesus did not descend into hell but was in a “state”.

By the way any place can ascribe to a certain state of being. That is why I like to think of purgatory as more of an event, even the judgement, that takes place for all Christians and before the Lord’s judgement seat.

Blessings