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elvisman
Guest
Your refusal to debate the issue by presenting evidence makes it abundantly clear that you are unsure about your position.
Hit and run apologetics just doesn’t wash here . . .
- Status
Hit and run apologetics just doesn’t wash here . . .
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Where do you get this idea? My Catholic priest is married, I just attended his child’s baptism 2 weeks ago performed by our Bishop.
Yes, John the Baptist is a cousin of Jesus. As far as tradition goes, yes we believe that Jesus had brothers and sisters by Joseph, but not by Mary. Again, where in the Bible did it say that they were children of Mary? I have the Protoevangelium of James, you have nothing but personal interpretation.
Where in the Bible does it say put the Bible first above everything else? We Catholics put God first above everything else.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
@WhoDatChristian
Also since you are the adamant one, why don’t you tackle my question? How will YOUR faith change if Mary is an ever-virgin compared to now that you insist that she has not? What has that argument got to do with YOUR faith? Is there a doctrine of your faith that revolves around that premise?
Also since you are the adamant one, why don’t you tackle my question? How will YOUR faith change if Mary is an ever-virgin compared to now that you insist that she has not? What has that argument got to do with YOUR faith? Is there a doctrine of your faith that revolves around that premise?
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Nevermore22
Guest
Hey!
I can tell you are very devout, but it is clear that you have views on Scripture that differ from Catholics. Plus you are expecting us Catholics to look at Scripture they same way you do. Perhaps, if you looked at it like we do, you will understand?
Anyways, I found this link that goes through Scripture to prove that the “brothers” mentioned in the Bible are not Mary’s children.
philvaz.com/apologetics/a27.htm
Also, people here really like getting replies to the questions/points that they make. So, for further warning, try not to dismiss them and attempt to give some sort of reply for each one. That way dialogue can flow a lot easier, and tempers will not rise!
In Christ,
Nevermore
I can tell you are very devout, but it is clear that you have views on Scripture that differ from Catholics. Plus you are expecting us Catholics to look at Scripture they same way you do. Perhaps, if you looked at it like we do, you will understand?
Anyways, I found this link that goes through Scripture to prove that the “brothers” mentioned in the Bible are not Mary’s children.
philvaz.com/apologetics/a27.htm
Also, people here really like getting replies to the questions/points that they make. So, for further warning, try not to dismiss them and attempt to give some sort of reply for each one. That way dialogue can flow a lot easier, and tempers will not rise!
In Christ,
Nevermore
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
Hello WDC. Welcome to the forums. You’re not asking anything new here. And I think that Erich’s post above does a fine job of setting forth the scriptural basis for rejecting your erroneous conclusions about the “brethren of the Lord.” It has nothing to do with what a Catholic priest tells us. Surely, there have been many poorly formed priests, such as Martin Luther, that failed us in the past. What we look to is Scripture, the Tradition that comes to us from the Apostles, and the teaching authority of the Church.
WDC:
Any Catholic who is well versed in scripture will concede the reference to a mother-in-law. But that proves nothing regarding the discipline of the Church with respect to celibacy. Jesus was celibate in his ministry, and he commended those who were given the same charism. And St. Paul urges those who can to be celibate. It is giving up something good, for something greater. And it is beside the point you raised in your original post. It certainly does expose your poor thinking on the issue. The discipline of celibacy among the ministers of the Church is clearly part of Scripture and the Apostolic Tradition. And contrary to what you may believe, it is not a dogma of the Church.
WDC:
Your “proof” from scripture on these points has been shredded (again, see Erich’s post and many fine others) and, as previously pointed out, John’s actual degree of relationship is not clear from the language of Scripture although it is conceded that there is a familial relationship there. Again, the John/Jesus familial connection does nothing to establish your argument that Mary had other children, which was the point of your OP.
WDC:
I think it is you who needs to reexamine the question in light of what has been presented to you here. You have an obligation to consider the points made, as your points were considered here. Great thought and effort was taken in crafting some of these responses. You would benefit from understanding where Catholics are actually coming from on this point.
WDC:
In what way do you think Catholics are being swindled? I’ve given no money away because of my belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary, the Mother of God.
WDC:
Catholics are christian. There is no contradiction between the terms “Catholic” and “Christian.”
WDC:
I agree we are saved through grace alone. But we are not saved by faith alone. A good topic for another thread, if you want to start one.
Peace,
Robert
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Erich
Guest
Oh?
Matthew 19:11-12 – Jesus answered, “Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom that is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.** Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.**”
Actually, the Bible is very clear that those whom you claim are His literal brothers and sisters are in fact children of parents other than Mary and Joseph (see again post #92).
If you want to try and make the argument that they are his literal brothers and sisters then examine the evidence.
Whose pride is getting in whose way?
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Erich
Guest
Actually, first we have to repent (see Mark 1:15) – “This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
We have no guarantee of salvation. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13) The belief that there is nothing you can do, no sin you can commit, no matter how heinous, that will forfeit your salvation, even if you wanted to, is not how things work in everyday life. If another person gives us something as a grace—as a gift—and even if we did nothing to deserve it (though frequently gifts are given based on our having pleased the one bestowing the gift), it in no way follows that our actions are irrelevant to whether or not we keep the gift. We can lose it in all kinds of ways. We can misplace it, destroy it, give it to someone else, take it back to the store. We may even forfeit something we were given by later displeasing the one who gave it—as when a person has been appointed to a special position but is later stripped of that position on account of mismanagement.
St. Paul certainly believed the Gospel (at least, after his Damascus Road experience). But even he did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, “I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).
“Are you saved?” you ask. I reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I *will be *saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”
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Erich
Guest
This is probably a topic for its own thread, but “man of God” is actually a title of authority that is bestowed upon a man by a higher authority. A man must be called by God to hold this title of “man of God.”
From By What Authority?
Moses - “This is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.” (Deut. 33:1)
“Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal; and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, ‘You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me.’” (Josh. 14:6)
The Angel of the Lord - “Then the woman came and told her husband, ‘A man of God came to me, and his countenance was like the countenance of the angel of God, very terrible; I did not ask him whence he was, and he did not tell me his name…’ Then Manoah entreated the LORD, and said, ‘O, LORD, I pray thee, let the man of God whom thou didst send come again to us, and teach us what we are to do with the boy that will be born.’” (Jud. 13:6, 8)
Samuel - “The servant answered Saul again, ‘Here, I have with me the fourth part of a shekel of silver, and I will give it to the man of God, to tell us our way.’” (1 Sam. 9:8)
Elijah - “And she said to Elijah, ‘What have you against me, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my sin to remembrance, and to cause the death of my son!’” (1 Kings 17:18)
Elisha - “And she went up and laid him on the bed of the man of God, and shut the door upon him, and went out… When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed.” (2 Kings 4:21, 32)
David - “According to the ordinance of David his father, he appointed the divisions of the priests for their service, and the Levites for their offices of praise and ministry before the priests as the duty of each day required, and the gatekeepers in their divisions for the several gates; for so David the man of God had commanded.” (2 Chr. 8:14)
St. Timothy - “But as for you, man of God, shun all this; aim at righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.” (1 Tim. 6:11)
Contrary to the opinion that the “man of God” can be any Christian without distinction, Scripture itself will not allow such an interpretation, insisting that the “man of God” is a figure of authority, either commissioned by God directly through Divine Intervention (such as Moses or the Angel), or appointed by another holder of authority (such as Samuel, David, Elisha, and St. Timothy).
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Nicea325
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: Ezek 44:1 Then THE MAN BROUGHT ME BACK TO THE OUTER GATE of the sanctuary, THE ONE FACING EAST, and IT WAS SHUT. 2 THE LORD SAID to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUTH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT.Howdy folks. I love y’all, so don’t get offended. But it is not scriptural to try and sell the idea that Mary is a virgin. Do you think they will change their thoughts on that? thanks
Ezek44:1 is an OT prophecy. One of Mary’s titles is Gate of Heaven. This gate, Mary’s womb, is to remain shut. It must NOT BE OPENED, NO ONE may enter THROUGH IT, She is to remain ever virgin. No other children are to enter through it. Because The Lord God, Jesus, has entered through Mary the gate of heaven. Mary is also seen as the Ark of the Covenand, which no man could touch or enter.
[NBRS 30:3 “WHEN A YOUNG WOMAN still living in her father’s house MAKES A VOW TO THE LORD or obligates herself by a pledge 4 AND HER FATHER HEARS about her vow or pledge BUT SAYS NOTHING TO HER, then all HER VOWS and every pledge by which she obligated herself WILL STAND. 5 But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the LORD will release her because her father has forbidden her. 6 "IF SHE MARRIES AFTER SHE MAKES A VOW or after her lips utter a rash promise by which she obligates herself 7 AND HER HUSBAND HEARS about it BUT SAYS NOTHING to her, THEN HER VOWS or the pledges by which she obligated herself WILL STAND. 8 But if her husband forbids her when he hears about it, he nullifies the vow that obligates her or the rash promise by which she obligates herself, and the LORD will release her.
[Lk1:30 And THE ANGEL SAID unto her FEAR NOT MARY for thou hast found favour with God 31 And behold THOU SHALT CONCEIVE in thy womb AND BRING FORTH A SON and shalt CALL HIS NAME JESUS 32 He shall be great and shall be called THE SON OF THE HIGHEST and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever and of his kingdom there shall be no end 34 THEN SAID MARY unto the angel HOW SHALL THIS BE SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God] Unless Mary had taken a vow of virginity, as the early Church Fathers taught, why would she a betrothed woman ask, “HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? Wouldn’t conceiving be the most natural and desired thing for a betrothed to expect, especially a Jewish woman?
Brethern does not mean every last realitive or even every last alledged brother, if James was an unbeliever until after the resurrection. Would such a new convert, not trustworthy enough to provide for his alleged mother, be immediately made head of the church in Jerusalem, without spiritual development, to provide for the welfare and care of the people of God. While James shirked his family duties which in Jewish culture in that day would have been outrageous and maybe a stoneable offense to publicly dishonor one’s parent and that’s how it would have looked to the Jew and Christian alike, at that time. Even in our society this would be looked down on as a dysfunctional family. When Christ died the alleged eldest son would have become the head of the family. It would have been his duty to take care of his mother and he could have commanded Mary to his house. But instead, all 4 alleged brothers and several sisters, all without objection turn over the care of their mother to John to be taken wherever. I wouldn’t allow a relative take my healthy mother to live with them, would you? Believer or non believer Christ would not have commended his mother to anyone but her children, had she had other children. To do so implies Mary did not like her alledged children and they did not like her. Seems there was no problem with Mary being with them while Christ was still alive. Could he as God not provided for her, as he does us, no matter if our families are totally atheist. Christ as God would have known his alleged brothers would have converted after his death anyway.
Isaiah 66: 7 Before she comes to labor, she gives birth; Before the pains come upon her, she safely delivers a male child. 8 Who ever heard of such a thing, or saw the like? 9 Shall I bring a mother to the point of birth, and yet not let her child be born? says the LORD; Or shall I who allow her to conceive, yet close her womb? says your God. 10 Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad because of her, all you who love her; Exult, exult with her,
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jlhargus
Guest
Ezek 44:1 Then the man brought me back to THE OUTER GATE OF THE SANCTUARY, the one FACING EAST, and it was shut. 2 THE LORD SAID to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUGH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT. [The Lord God has entered through Mary the gate of heaven and no one else is to enter thru that gate. Just as no one was to enter into the OT Ark of the Covenant, so no one is to enter Mary the Ark of the NT. The Father called Mary the gate of heaven and the ark of the covenant. Jn1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Hb9:4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ARK CONTAINED the gold jar of MANNA, AARON’S STAFF that had budded, and the stone TABLETS OF THE COVENANT.
Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.
2 MCABS 2:5 And when Jeremy came thither he found an hollow cave wherein he laid the tabernacle and the ark and the altar of incense and so stopped the door 6 And some of those that followed him came to mark the way but they could not find it 7 Which when Jeremy perceived he blamed them saying As for THAT PLACE IT SHALL BE UNKNOWN UNTILL THE TIME THAT GOD GATHER HIS PEOPLE again TOGETHER AND RECEIVE THEM UNTO MERCY. 8 THEN SHALL THE LORD SHEW THEM THESE THINGS AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL APPEAR AND THE CLOUD ALSO as it was shewed under Moses and as when Solomon desired that the place might be honourably sanctified
EX 40:34 Then** a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle
LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee** therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God
2 SAM 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims
LK 1:39 **And Mary arose **in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste **into a city of Juda **
2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid **of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary **for thou hast found favour with God
2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart
LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears** the babe leaped in my womb for joy **
2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings** he blessed the people in the name of the LORD** of hosts
LK 1:45 And** blessed is she that believed **for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord
2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household
LK 1:56 **And Mary abode with her about three months **and returned to her own house
Hb10:1 For the law having a SHADOW of good things to come, and NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THINGS, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hb9:4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ARK CONTAINED the gold jar of MANNA, AARON’S STAFF that had budded, and the stone TABLETS OF THE COVENANT.
Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.
2 MCABS 2:5 And when Jeremy came thither he found an hollow cave wherein he laid the tabernacle and the ark and the altar of incense and so stopped the door 6 And some of those that followed him came to mark the way but they could not find it 7 Which when Jeremy perceived he blamed them saying As for THAT PLACE IT SHALL BE UNKNOWN UNTILL THE TIME THAT GOD GATHER HIS PEOPLE again TOGETHER AND RECEIVE THEM UNTO MERCY. 8 THEN SHALL THE LORD SHEW THEM THESE THINGS AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL APPEAR AND THE CLOUD ALSO as it was shewed under Moses and as when Solomon desired that the place might be honourably sanctified
EX 40:34 Then** a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle
LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee** therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God
2 SAM 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims
LK 1:39 **And Mary arose **in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste **into a city of Juda **
2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid **of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary **for thou hast found favour with God
2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart
LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears** the babe leaped in my womb for joy **
2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings** he blessed the people in the name of the LORD** of hosts
LK 1:45 And** blessed is she that believed **for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord
2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household
LK 1:56 **And Mary abode with her about three months **and returned to her own house
Hb10:1 For the law having a SHADOW of good things to come, and NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THINGS, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Makes you wonder why some people demand ‘Bliblical proof,’ and when more than ample evidence is given, their response is the equivalent of ‘Lalalalalalaaaa I’m not listeningggg!’
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Erich
Guest
Next topic: “This is My Body… This is My Blood”
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century153
Guest
35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle
LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee** therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God
2 SAM 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims
LK 1:39 **And Mary arose **in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste **into a city of Juda **
2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid **of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary **for thou hast found favour with God
2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart
LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears** the babe leaped in my womb for joy **
2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings** he blessed the people in the name of the LORD** of hosts
LK 1:45 And** blessed is she that believed **for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord
2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household
LK 1:56 **And Mary abode with her about three months **and returned to her own house
Hb10:1 For the law having a SHADOW of good things to come, and NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THINGS, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
This is totally amazing. And this is how the Bible is …types and shadows through and through. How great is our God! And soon He will reveal ALL things as He promised. Just an aside…I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but, Muslims also believe in the Virgin birth and Mary Ever Virgin. But, they do not believe she ever had a husband at all…even one she did not sleep with. I don’t know where they get their scripture from.
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Curious_Hobbit
Guest
Hey WhoDatChristian,
There were several things that I was going to post, but elvisman and erich did an incredible job in articulating the points I was going to make and much more. You should go back and read elvisman’s post about the greek word “Adelphos” and erich’s post about the supposed brothers of Jesus. Them and others have done a great job in showing why Catholics don’t believe Mary had other children. At first you sounded like you really wanted to know why Catholics believed what they believed and now it just sounds like don’t agree with them BECAUSE THEY ARE CATHOLIC. It was just a little strange how you assumed that all the arguments presented to, were only believed because a priest said so, and then bringing up priest celibacy. I would really like a good thorough response to elvisman and erich’s posts.
The Greek word for brothers “Adelphos” is used as blood brothers in some places like Matt 4:21-22, but used as kinsmen/ associates in other places like Acts 9:17
Mk 6:3-“isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary, a brother (Adelphos) of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Aren’t His sisters our neighbors here?”
Mark 3:31- “whoever does the will of God is my brother (Adelphos) and sister and mother”
1 Cor 15:6- Jesus appeared to more than 500 brothers (Adelphos) at once.
In the King James version Gen 14: 16- “And he[Abraham] brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother (Adelphos) Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.” ---- Lot is Abraham’s nephew, not his brother
KJV Gen 29:15 " And Laban said unto Jacob, Because thou art my brother (Adelphos), shouldest thou therefore serve me for nought? tell me, what shall thy wages be? -------------- Laban was not Jacob’s brother, he was Jacob’s uncle.
Also there was no word for “cousin” in the Aramaic language.
There were several things that I was going to post, but elvisman and erich did an incredible job in articulating the points I was going to make and much more. You should go back and read elvisman’s post about the greek word “Adelphos” and erich’s post about the supposed brothers of Jesus. Them and others have done a great job in showing why Catholics don’t believe Mary had other children. At first you sounded like you really wanted to know why Catholics believed what they believed and now it just sounds like don’t agree with them BECAUSE THEY ARE CATHOLIC. It was just a little strange how you assumed that all the arguments presented to, were only believed because a priest said so, and then bringing up priest celibacy. I would really like a good thorough response to elvisman and erich’s posts.
The Greek word for brothers “Adelphos” is used as blood brothers in some places like Matt 4:21-22, but used as kinsmen/ associates in other places like Acts 9:17
Mk 6:3-“isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary, a brother (Adelphos) of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Aren’t His sisters our neighbors here?”
Mark 3:31- “whoever does the will of God is my brother (Adelphos) and sister and mother”
1 Cor 15:6- Jesus appeared to more than 500 brothers (Adelphos) at once.
In the King James version Gen 14: 16- “And he[Abraham] brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother (Adelphos) Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.” ---- Lot is Abraham’s nephew, not his brother
KJV Gen 29:15 " And Laban said unto Jacob, Because thou art my brother (Adelphos), shouldest thou therefore serve me for nought? tell me, what shall thy wages be? -------------- Laban was not Jacob’s brother, he was Jacob’s uncle.
Also there was no word for “cousin” in the Aramaic language.
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Sufjon
Guest
Okay, this is something I am going to need an explanation on. I understand why the virgin birth of Jesus is important to Christians. From what I can tell, it establishes that He was God incarnate, rather than born through the union of a woman and a man. I get that. Can someone explain why it is important that Mary was a perpetual virgin? The phrase above about no reason to honor her otherwise is a great example of the thinking that perplexes me about western thought. How does the fact of whether or not a woman has sex diminish her holiness? What is it about that particular act that would cause the Mother of God to be something less in the eyes of some Christians (mainly Catholics from what I can tell). She’s still the Mother of God, right? So why is her sex life open to speculation or even relevant beyond the virgin birth? Let me further that a bit. Virgin birth aside (using virgin birth to establish the God aspect of Jesus) how is a discussion on the prior or subsequent sex life of Mary not disrespectful to Mary or any woman? My sense is that is none of our business. Can someone explain why we should be doing this? Son of God and Mother of God aspect aside, any woman who has to watch her son beaten, dragged through the streets and nailed up to die, just deserves some consideration and respect on that alone. I am looking at your faith from the outside in, so help me understand why this is important to you if you would please.
Thanks,
Your friend
Sufjon
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Zooey
Guest
My opinion is, that you are absolutely right.
I grew up being taught that Mary was a perpetual virgin.( This was in the Free Methodist Church).Somewhere since I hit my teens, somebody decided to try to score points against Catholics, by claiming that the Bible says that mary had other children.
Well. I don’t know how to break it to WDC & Co, but their newfound notion doesn’t make any sense. Amd if it were so bluidy “Biblical” as WDC &Co claim…Why the blasted heck had nobody, Catholic, Protestant, or
Welsh Druidical Nudist Unitarian Hindu, ever heard of it until the 1960s???
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SonCatcher
Guest
Sufjon,
You are correct that some theological descriptions of our reasons for honoring Mary are difficult. We do not honor Mary simply because we believe she was a perpetual virgin. Indeed, there are many men and women Saints who were parents. Obviously they were not virgins.
The reason we honor her as a perpetual virgin is because of ancient Tradition. The Church has taught that she was ever-virgin from the beginning. The original Apostles actually taught this to their disciples. We do not have writings of the Apostles on this but we do have very early writings from Christians that describe the teaching and describe it as being handed down from the Apostles.
For over 1500 years, the only people who claimed against Mary’s perpetual virginity were trying to discredit Christianity. It is unfortunate that recent centuries have seen non-Catholic Christians adopt what was previously only an anti-Christian attack and wield it against Catholic and Orthodox Christians.
E
elvisman
Guest
Hello, Sufjon.
I explained in an earlier post why Mary’s perpetual virginity is crucial. It has to do with Old Testament prophecy and New Testament fulfillment.
Here is the link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7326599&postcount=90
Let me know if it helps.
S
Sufjon
Guest
Thanks for the reply Elvisman. I read the post you gave the link to, but I still have pretty much the same question. I understand that she was the Arc of the Covenant and that the Arc was not to be defiled by human hands. You have to understand that my background is different than yours, so this is what I’m struggling with. Someone like myself wouldn’t understand why sex (under mutual consent) defiles anyone. Now, understand that I am not refuting the claim that your church maintains on perpetual virginity. I have no problem believing that she was perpetually virgin. I am not here to argue that. What I don’t understand is how having sex with a man would have defiled her and why that is important. If the capacity to love another human being is a grace, how is one of the manners of it’s fulfillment a defilement? Is it not a blessing and even the consummation of a sacrament? How is the fulfillment of what you would ostensibly call a sacrament a defilement rather than a blessing? I have even been to many Christian weddings where the minister or priest mentioned being entered into the bonds of holy matrimony, not the bonds of defilement. In light of all of this, it seems rather curious to me how this would matter in the context of her holiness. I understand how the Virgin birth of Jesus is important to the story - Son of God, ect. Just trying to understand how perpetual virginity matters.
Thanks again for your help.
Your friend,
Sufjon
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