Why do Catholics believe Mary is a "virgin"?

[ComeHome2Rome]

Hi WhoDatChristian based on what the Bible teaches, on what Tradition teaches and what History clearly shows that the earliest Christians believed, I believe the correct question is: Why would anyone NOT believe that Mary is a Virgin?

 

[pablope]

No, I don’t expect you to take kindly to it. But again, I honestly don’t think that was the intent of the question. When I first saw the title of the post, it made me want to know the answer as well, so I don’t think anyone was Mary bashing, just asking an honest question.

Jeni…you will find a whole spectrum of protestants here…from those really wanting to learn, asking questions and getting answers, reasonable protestants so to speak. And on the other end, you will encounter some out to bash catholicism, its beliefs, and what not…some very self righteous and self arrogant ones. Have you not noticed that the original poster has not returned, his question was answered…but have you seen his replies? I think he was baiting. In one thread, there was one who stated that Mary still needed to be judged by God and he did not need to be judged, that he is guaranteed heaven!

 

[pablope]

So, what does this have to do with Mary’s Perpetual Virginity? Just as the Ark was a holy vessel which bore the Divine Presence, Mary was the holy living vessel chosen to bear the Lord God. The Ark was a created thing, just as Mary was a created being, for the purpose of carrying the presence of God. This explains also the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, because only something “perfectly endowed with grace” (Greek kecharitomene, Luke 1:28) was fit to carry God, as the Ark was made only of the purest gold for God’s word (Ex 25:11-21).

Now, if God’s presence “overshadowed” Mary, why did Joseph refrain from intercourse at all? The answer is that even he recognized her special consecration as God’s living vessel, the Ark of the New Covenant. Note that because God’s presence overshadowed the tabernacle, Moses was not able to enter: “Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode therein, and the glory of the the Lord filled the tabernacle.” (Ex 40:34-35) Just as Moses was not able to enter the tabernacle due to God’s presence, Joseph was not able to have marital relations with Mary because God’s presence, in the same way as in Exodus 40:34-35, had overshadowed her. Another example is seen in Uz’zah, who aroused the anger of God simply for touching the Ark: “And when they came to Na’chon’s threshing floor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the Ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uz’zah, and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the Ark of God.” (2 Sam 6:6-7) Don’t think that Joseph wasn’t aware of this story - the fact that Uz’zah was killed immediately simply for reaching out to steady the Ark being shaken by the oxen. He knew that Mary, as the New Ark of the Covenant, was not to be touched, either. This is why Joseph refrained from intercourse with Mary during her miraculous pregancy and afterwards as well, because if God’s Presence had indeed “overshadowed” Mary’s womb, Catholics believe that Mary’s womb had become the dwelling place of the Lord, something like the Eastern Gate mentioned in Ezekiel 44: “This gate shall remain shut: it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter it; for the Lord, the God of Israel has entered it; THEREFORE, it shall remain shut. Only the prince may sit down in it to eat his meal in the presence of the Lord.” (Ez 44:1-3)

Excellent post, Erich. Was this directed to Sufjon? I hope he will see this post.

 

[benidict]

You know, I really don’t know why everything has to come back to Protestant bashing. This thread posing a valid question for those of us who came to this site searching for answers to questions in our hearts. I honestly do not think that this question was meant to offend anyone and I certainly do not mean to offend anyone with my posts either. My life has been so confusing in recent months and I have a lot of questions, not about my belief in God, but if I am practicing my faith the way that God would have me to. It seems like every time a protestant asks a question on this site, we are looked down on and in some cases treated with hostility. For me, that makes me feel that Protestants are not welcome here, and seriously makes me question why I would want to be associated with a religion that would try to make someone feel that way. Every Catholic says that the Catholic church is the true church, the only church. My Pastor (my very Pentecostal Pastor) teaches that the true Church of Christ goes beyond denomination and includes every man, woman, and child who accepts Jesus as their personal Savior. He teaches that there will be Catholics in Heaven, Pentecostals in Heaven, and members of any other denomination that you can name as long as they have accepted Jesus. Why does he teach that, “John 3:16. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life.” To me, that means anyone, regardless of denomination can be saved.

With that being said, why try to make some one feel like they are wrong for not believing the way you do? I guess that’s what we get for looking for answers on the internet.

ask away my friend. im a former baptist, and i know all about confusion. i can sympathize with you. you are more than welcome here in my book. i also want you know, i will lift you up in prayer, that God will give you clear, and concise answers how to practice your faith, in a way that most glorifies Him. and i will pray that he will send you His Peace that passeth all understanding. Peace and prayers for you.

 

[benidict]

And I’ve already stated that I honestly admire you for defending your faith. I get the importance of holding your ground and continuing to believe. I don’t get why others challenge you on it though, expecting to find proof. If they don’t believe it already, nothing you say will change that probably [unless Mary herself comes down and explains how things were]. I didn’t mean that you should stop defending. I simply meant that it isn’t a good argument for a protestant to start. Sorry if I didn’t explain myself well enough.
Please, continue to defend your faith in her perpetual virgindom, for I admire you for the strength of faith. I just don’t think it wise for protestants to continue to harass you about it. It isn’t a “big deal” to THEM, even if it is to you, so they should stop.

much appreciated jrose. and i agree with what you state in the way you put it here. i honestly believe a person cannot believe the teachings about Mary, unless the Holy Spirit opens their eyes. no amount of scriptural, or historical proofs will change their minds. Peace

 

[elvisman]

much appreciated jrose. and i agree with what you state in the way you put it here. i honestly believe a person cannot believe the teachings about Mary, unless the Holy Spirit opens their eyes. no amount of scriptural, or historical proofs will change their minds. Peace

Absolutely.
This is PRECISELY why Jesus told the crowd in John 6:63:
"It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

---

Great observation, brotha.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

No, I don’t expect you to take kindly to it. But again, I honestly don’t think that was the intent of the question. When I first saw the title of the post, it made me want to know the answer as well, so I don’t think anyone was Mary bashing, just asking an honest question.

Read the OP replies. If that’s not attitude and Mary-bashing, please tell me what is.

 

[Erich]

Excellent post, Erich.

http://attilahypnotist.com/cardtrick/images/genie.gif

Actually, I have trouble remembering all the individual “tying loose ends together” Scripture passages that I have come across over the years … but I do remember that I have come across them in the past, and I am almost always able to re-find them again using a search engine

Was this directed to Sufjon? I hope he will see this post.

Actually it was a continuation of my immediately-preceding post (in reply to jrose90’s “neither side is able to prove their argument” assertion) which I had to split due to having reached the max characters limit.

I didn’t think it necessary to re-insert the assertion I was replying to (or re-post the reference to Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant), since both of my posts were within a few seconds of each other. If it ever happens again that I have to split a post (as I’m sure it will), I’ll try to remember to add “cont’d next post / cont’d from previous post”.

 

[TimothyH]

The question posed by the original poster is an absurdity.

If we insist that everything Christian must be explicit in the Bible then **the Trinity **is not scriptural.

That neither side can prove their point is not relevant.

-Tim-

 

[century153]

You know, I really don’t know why everything has to come back to Protestant bashing. This thread posing a valid question for those of us who came to this site searching for answers to questions in our hearts. I honestly do not think that this question was meant to offend anyone and I certainly do not mean to offend anyone with my posts either. My life has been so confusing in recent months and I have a lot of questions, not about my belief in God, but if I am practicing my faith the way that God would have me to. It seems like every time a protestant asks a question on this site, we are looked down on and in some cases treated with hostility. For me, that makes me feel that Protestants are not welcome here, and seriously makes me question why I would want to be associated with a religion that would try to make someone feel that way. Every Catholic says that the Catholic church is the true church, the only church. My Pastor (my very Pentecostal Pastor) teaches that the true Church of Christ goes beyond denomination and includes every man, woman, and child who accepts Jesus as their personal Savior. He teaches that there will be Catholics in Heaven, Pentecostals in Heaven, and members of any other denomination that you can name as long as they have accepted Jesus. Why does he teach that, “John 3:16. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life.” To me, that means anyone, regardless of denomination can be saved.

With that being said, why try to make some one feel like they are wrong for not believing the way you do? I guess that’s what we get for looking for answers on the internet.

Hi, I just want to clarify that there are plenty of protestant bashers but then again there are plenty of Catholic bashers as well. In fact, for the most part, I don’t think many protestants (meaning Christians who are not RC) don’t really know or have any clue that Catholics believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior (then again, I know some Cathlics who don’t even know that Jesus Christ is their Savior - but very very few). So, what am I saying? That let’s all try to get beyond our differences and concentrate on our basic belief – that Jesus Christ is Lord and He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, just like He said. And, I believe that the Pope made a statement that we just might be seeing some Muslims in heaven – correct me if I’m wrong. But, I know a Muslim, personally, who is more of a christian than some Christians I know.

 

[JonNC]

Luther explains it very well, Jesus had no Brothers.

Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:

Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.

And of course this is Catholic Bible teaching.

Hi Gary,
At least the guy got something right.

Jon

 

[Jeninky]

Please forgive me if I have offended anyone with my previous posts. Next time, I will have to remind myself to not rush to defensiveness on things like this. I appreciate every ones encouragement. God Bless all of you.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

John the Baptist was in fact a cousin of Jesus. His mother, Elizabeth, was a cousin of Mary’s, which made her child a cousin of Jesus. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Mary was a Virgin.

Many people in the Bible are referred to as "brothers’, because the Hebrew and Greek word is NOT specific. The same word is used for brother, cousin, etc. In order to actually read the original intent, you would have to be able to read ancient Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and several other languages. ALL of them lose something when translated, because many words have more than one meaning. It all has to do with context.

As an example, the Commandment is NOT “Thou shalt no kill” in the original Hebrew. It is, “Thou shalt not murder”. There is just a bit of difference between the two.

Much of this comes about because of the “King James” Version of the Bible. I grew up with it, believing that it was the inherent and revealed word of God. BUT, when I began to study the Bible, and theology, I quickly discovered that it is not even a good translation, much less a definitive one.

 

[SonCatcher]

Please forgive me if I have offended anyone with my previous posts. Next time, I will have to remind myself to not rush to defensiveness on things like this. I appreciate every ones encouragement. God Bless all of you.

no problem. The OP is even welcome back

 

[bo_leggs]

Seems as though the OP didn’t really want to know WHY—just came on to give attitude and turn a deaf ear to answers.

From what I have seen of the threads on this site, a lot of Protestants come on here to ask questions “not to offend anyone but”, just to do that very thing and to have their say on the subject. Then they ignore all proofs that we offer FROM THE BIBLE that they base their whole religion (all 30,000+ denominations) on. And they twist and distort the verses so badly to try to prove their point. That’s when they aren’t taking them out of context. I recently had a discussion with a “non-denominational” Evangelical. Many of his “proofs” were verses taken out of context. A lot of times, when I put the verses in proper context, they proved exactly the opposite. This same guy once attacked the Rosary as not being biblical until I showed him exactly where everything came from in the Bible, and showed him that it is actually the prayer of the Gospel. He also said we were giving Mary 10 times the praise we give Jesus,so I wrote out the Hail Mary for him and showed him that Mary always points to Jesus. In the end, they just show how ignorant they really are.

 

[CHRISTSaves]

actually… This might be a good question?? Because didn’t mary have children with Joseph? I was born and raised catholic. but I never understood why so much emphasis is put on mary being a virgin? Isn’t it Jesus that GOD sent to die for our sins? I don’t know I’m confused by this. I just know I read my bible and believe Jesus Christ died for my sins and when I prayed and prayed to GOD for help to change I turned away from drugs, alcoholism, drug dealing, fornication/adultery… All I know is that I believe in GOD, the Bible, and Jesus and now I don’t even desire what I used to be chained to. I should be dead or in jail right now, but reading the Bible and turning to Jesus saved me… So as a born/raised catholic with a catholic family… I just don’t understand why people talk about mary or the saints anymore?? I don’t know I’m just confused. I know I’m different by it wasn’t mary or the saints or even going to church that saved me… I have been away from church for a long time. But just by reading the Bible, turning to GOD, confessing with an honest heart to GOD that I was lost, then allowing GOD to change me… My life is 180 degrees reversed from where it was a year ago

 

[bo_leggs]

I just don’t understand why people talk about mary or the saints anymore??

We get this from the earliest Christians who looked at those who died and were dying for the Faith as heroes to be honored and imitated. The Christians in ancient Rome would attend Mass in the catacombs over the bones of martyrs. This is why there are always Saints relics embedded in the stone of the altar that the priest consecrates the bread and wine over. These ancient Christians would even carry bones of the martyrs and holy people in their pockets, on chains around their necks, and in other ways on their persons. The pagans hated the Christians for this because they wanted nothing to do with dead people. This tradition (small “t”) has carried forward to today. We honor and look up to the Saints and their Faith, and certainly there has never been anyone who has displayed greater faith than the Blessed Virgin Mary. Her faith was so strong that, even though she was a dedicated virgin, she said “Yes” to God when He asked her to be the Mother of Jesus, the second person in the Holy Trinity. She and Joseph raised and protected Jesus from a tiny baby to adulthood. Then when Jesus began His mission, Mary was with Him every step of the way, even standing with Him as He died on the Cross. After that, she continued supporting the Apostles and the early Church, right up to her death. That is a faith deserving honor and imitation.

 

[bo_leggs]

. I have been away from church for a long time. But just by reading the Bible, turning to GOD, confessing with an honest heart to GOD that I was lost, then allowing GOD to change me… My life is 180 degrees reversed from where it was a year ago

I congratulate you for turning your life around and coming back home to the Church. I know it wasn’t easy, and you probably still have struggles. Just hang in there, continue reading your Bible, going to Mass, and participating in the Sacraments. And I will pray for you, too. Saint Augustine lived a “fast” life for many years, but through the prayers of his mother, he was finally brought to faith. He changed his life and is not one of our most honored Saints. I would recommend that you read his “Confessions” sometime. It’s a wonderful book. It has helped me live a more spiritual life. May God bless you.

 

[benidict]

actually… This might be a good question?? Because didn’t mary have children with Joseph? I was born and raised catholic. but I never understood why so much emphasis is put on mary being a virgin? Isn’t it Jesus that GOD sent to die for our sins? I don’t know I’m confused by this. I just know I read my bible and believe Jesus Christ died for my sins and when I prayed and prayed to GOD for help to change I turned away from drugs, alcoholism, drug dealing, fornication/adultery… All I know is that I believe in GOD, the Bible, and Jesus and now I don’t even desire what I used to be chained to. I should be dead or in jail right now, but reading the Bible and turning to Jesus saved me… So as a born/raised catholic with a catholic family… I just don’t understand why people talk about mary or the saints anymore?? I don’t know I’m just confused. I know I’m different by it wasn’t mary or the saints or even going to church that saved me… I have been away from church for a long time. But just by reading the Bible, turning to GOD, confessing with an honest heart to GOD that I was lost, then allowing GOD to change me… My life is 180 degrees reversed from where it was a year ago

what a wonderful testimony. i will pray for your continued victory over these things, and you can pray i make it out of iraq alive. deal? ill still pray for you anyhow, God is good, and God is good all the time. peace and prayers for you and yours.

 

[bo_leggs]

i will pray for your continued victory over these things, and you can pray i make it out of iraq alive. deal?

I have a daughter in the Army that was supposed to go to Afghanistan. Luckily, she got pregnant and had to stay here. Gave birth to a beautiful little girl. I pray that all this mess will end soon. I will pray for you, too, benidict. You do a good job with apologetics.