Why do catholics leave the Catholic Church

[crazzeto]

Lutheranism and Protestantism in general was never a schism, always a heresy. Schism requires the defection of a Bishop.

For a Catholic, the guarantee of the Holy Spirit never allowing His Church to teach heresy resides in His Gift of Infallibility in His Popes. Thus it is possible for a dissident Orthodox bishop to drift into heresy and teach it to his flock, even though he is a Bishop. The same is NOT possible for a Catholic bishop in communion with the Pope. It would be possible for a Catholic bishop to teach heresy, but in the act of so doing he would fall out of communion with the Church. Arius was a Bishop.

No actually its quite possible for a Catholic Bishop to drift into heresy and teach it to his own flock. What is not possible is for the Magisterial authority of the church exercised either via Church council or by the Pontiff making a statement ex-cathedra to teach heresy to the flock universally.

It is possible for the pope to personally be a heretic, and for the pope to do a lot of damage in this context. Bishops individually fall into heresy and teach it to their flock with fair frequency I am very heart broken to say. But the individual believer has the assurance that if they are well catechized in the magisterial teaching, they can avoid following any dissident into heresy, particularly with frequent prayer and participation in the sacraments. The rosary is a great tool against this.

 

[Love4All]

Yes, and the people replay with an “Amen”. The “Amen” is very, very, very important.

We say, “Amen” when the priest or EM says, “the Body of Christ,” just before we ourselves, each individual, receives Holy Communion. There is also the “Great Amen” when the priest raises up the Holy Sacrament and says, “through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all Glory and Honor are Yours, Almighty Father, forever and ever.”

Do you also say “Amen” right after the words of consecration? In Catholic Churches, the acolyte rings a bell.

 

[crazzeto]

From my experience, most of those who leave aren’t about indifferentism. They do not believe that the other church is the same as the Roman Catholic Church. They always believe that they are moving to somewhere better, somewhere more true. I know you guys here do not agree with that, but that is how a lot of people see their choice.

I disagree, I would say few people leave after having studied the faith and few are well catechized enough to know the differences. I would would argue for indifferentism.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I disagree, I would say few people leave after having studied the faith and few are well catechized enough to know the differences. I would would argue for indifferentism.

I’m not even speculating about what they know, all they know is that they are in a better place. Even if that is the fruit of a lack of proper catechesis, from their perspective they are going to a better place. Indifferentism is a heresy that says all faiths are equal. These people do not see their new found faith as equal to Catholicism. They may be ill informed, but certainly they do not hold a view that it is equal.

 

[crazzeto]

I’m not even speculating about what they know, all they know is that they are in a better place. Even if that is the fruit of a lack of proper catechesis, from their perspective they are going to a better place. Indifferentism is a heresy that says all faiths are equal. These people do not see their new found faith as equal to Catholicism. They may be ill informed, but certainly they do not hold a view that it is equal.

I can speak mainly from my experience and what I’ve heard. How would you categorize

1. You know, I started going to the mega church because they’re fun
2. I don’t understand why the CC says I can’t get married again
3. I started going to church xyz because they’re more inviting and accepting
4. Church xyz is more inline with my personal world view than the Catholic Church

I would suggest to you that you are far more likely to find this kind of believer, than the kind that says “after much study, I find that I just can’t agree with papal doctrine”.

 

[clem456]

I disagree, I would say few people leave after having studied the faith and few are well catechized enough to know the differences. I would would argue for indifferentism.

In the case of people who drift away, yes I agree they may not be catechized well. Most of those I know who leave the Church for another church, -and are still committed Christians-, have studied and are well catechiized. They simply don’t believe in Catholicism. Or they have had some sort of negative experience that is so overwhelming they feel cannot remain in the Church.

It’s good to remember that faith is one of the theological virtues. It is a gift. Sometimes we have a hard time accepting that a person who has reasoned things out can be anything other than Catholic.

III. THE CHARACTERISTICS OF FAITH

Faith is a grace

153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”.24 Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’"25

Faith is a human act

154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to “yield by faith the full submission of. . . intellect and will to God who reveals”,26 and to share in an interior communion with him.

155 In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: "Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace."27

Faith and understanding

156 What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe “because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived”

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm

 

[ConstantineTG]

We say, “Amen” when the priest or EM says, “the Body of Christ,” just before we ourselves, each individual, receives Holy Communion. There is also the “Great Amen” when the priest raises up the Holy Sacrament and says, “through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all Glory and Honor are Yours, Almighty Father, forever and ever.”

Do you also say “Amen” right after the words of consecration? In Catholic Churches, the acolyte rings a bell.

Here is the Anaphora of St. John Chrysostom I lifted from a website. Our translation isn’t exactly this but pretty close. This is just to give you an idea:

Priest:
Take, eat, this is my Body which is broken for you for the forgiveness of sins.
People:
Amen.

Priest (in a low voice):
Likewise, after supper, He took the cup, saying:

Priest:
Drink of it all of you; this is my Blood of the new Covenant which is shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.
People:

Amen.
Priest (in a low voice):
Remembering, therefore, this command of the Savior, and all that came to pass for our sake, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the enthronement at the right hand of the Father, and the second, glorious coming,

Priest:
We offer to You these gifts from Your own gifts in all and for all.
People:
We praise You, we bless You, we give thanks to You, and we pray to You, Lord our God.
Priest (in a low voice):
Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we ask, pray, and entreat You: send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here presented.
And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ.
(He blesses the holy Bread.)
People: Amen.

Priest: And that which is in this cup the precious Blood of Your Christ.
(He blesses the holy Cup.)
People: Amen.

Priest:
Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.
(He blesses them both.)
People (Exclaim): Amen. Amen. Amen.

Priest (in a low voice):
So that they may be to those who partake of them for vigilance of soul, forgiveness of sins, communion of Your Holy Spirit, fulfillment of the kingdom of heaven, confidence before You, and not in judgment or condemnation. Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Priest:
Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary.
People:
It is truly right to bless you, Theotokos, ever blessed, most pure, and mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without corruption you gave birth to God the Word. We magnify you, the true Theotokos.
Priest (in a low voice):
For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles; for Saint(s) (Name-s), whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness.

Priest:
Above all, remember, Lord, our Archbishop (Name) and our Bishop (Name): Grant that they may serve Your holy churches in peace. Keep them safe, honorable, and healthy for many years, rightly teaching the word of Your truth.
Deacon:
Remember also, Lord, those whom each of us calls to mind and all Your people.
People:
And all Your people.
Priest (in a low voice):
Remember, Lord, the city in which we live, every city and country, and the faithful who dwell in them. Remember, Lord, the travelers, the sick, the suffering, and the captives, granting them protection and salvation. Remember, Lord, those who do charitable work, who serve in Your holy churches, and who care for the poor. And send Your mercy upon us all.

We do not say anything when receiving. Depending on the priest, we may say our names first upon approaching to the priest knows how to call us when giving us the Precious Gifts. The prayer of the priest goes:

The servant of God (Name) receives the Body and Blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I can speak mainly from my experience and what I’ve heard. How would you categorize

1. You know, I started going to the mega church because they’re fun
2. I don’t understand why the CC says I can’t get married again
3. I started going to church xyz because they’re more inviting and accepting
4. Church xyz is more inline with my personal world view than the Catholic Church

I would suggest to you that you are far more likely to find this kind of believer, than the kind that says “after much study, I find that I just can’t agree with papal doctrine”.

2,3, and 4 aren’t indifferentism. They know something else is different. I’ve known people who say, “well, Sunday worship is Sunday worship, doesn’t matter where you do it.” That is indifferentism. Here, I will agree there is lack of catechesis, but people think they’re going somewhere better.

 

[crazzeto]

In the case of people who drift away, yes I agree they may not be catechized well. Most of those I know who leave the Church for another church, -and are still committed Christians-, have studied and are well catechiized. They simply don’t believe in Catholicism. Or they have had some sort of negative experience that is so overwhelming they feel cannot remain in the Church.

It’s good to remember that faith is one of the theological virtues. It is a gift. Sometimes we have a hard time accepting that a person who has reasoned things out can be anything other than Catholic.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm

Maybe you’re lucky? Most I know who have left, did so due to “moral disagreement” (without understanding or an attempt to) or simply because they found another church more attractive. They don’t intentionally choose another church because they feel convicted by the Holy Spirit that this church is the true church, and the CC is a false church or at least in error. No, they do so because they figure “hey it’s church, what’s the difference”, i.e. due to indifferentism. The spirit they hold is the same spirit I recently encountered from a close friend who happens (in this case) to be a cradle methodist

“I think that all churches have communion, and that they’re all Christian and that there’s no difference”. That’s most of what I have encountered, I haven’t really encountered many who feel convicted to leave, especially specifically to another church due to close study. My first encounter with any such people are the Orthodox here like Constantine.

 

[crazzeto]

2,3, and 4 aren’t indifferentism. They know something else is different. I’ve known people who say, “well, Sunday worship is Sunday worship, doesn’t matter where you do it.” That is indifferentism. Here, I will agree there is lack of catechesis, but people think they’re going somewhere better.

On the one hand one could be tempted to say “yeah sure, I’ll go along with what you said”… But I honestly can’t. Not when the underlying motive allowing the person to make the move is the idea that “it’s all Christian”. There is an idea that as long as you are in some church, it’s all OK. It even extends to non-Christian faiths to the point of “as long as you are spiritual” etc.

In the described scenario the believer is empowered to leave the CC and go to any other faith group of their choice because ultimately “who you sign your check to” doesn’t matter.

 

[PJM]

=october baby;10772303]I do try to be charitable,sometimes I fail, isn’t that part of being human?

Yep!

 

[ConstantineTG]

On the one hand one could be tempted to say “yeah sure, I’ll go along with what you said”… But I honestly can’t. Not when the underlying motive allowing the person to make the move is the idea that “it’s all Christian”. There is an idea that as long as you are in some church, it’s all OK. It even extends to non-Christian faiths to the point of “as long as you are spiritual” etc.

In the described scenario the believer is empowered to leave the CC and go to any other faith group of their choice because ultimately “who you sign your check to” doesn’t matter.

This goes back to what I said earlier that often the failure is just with the priest and maybe the bishop to reach out to their own flock. That a Protestant pastor has the time to visit your home and sit down and read Scripture with you or have a meal with you, while the priest can’t be bothered to answer a simple question.

Sometimes also it is just the quality of one’s life. I’ve seen people who became “Born Again” and claim that they live a more faithful life as opposed to the sinful life they lived as Catholics. Forget that they weren’t good Catholics to begin with. But this goes back to priests making the time to make sure these people know what the teachings are and how they can live them.

 

[crazzeto]

This goes back to what I said earlier that often the failure is just with the priest and maybe the bishop to reach out to their own flock. That a Protestant pastor has the time to visit your home and sit down and read Scripture with you or have a meal with you, while the priest can’t be bothered to answer a simple question.

Sometimes also it is just the quality of one’s life. I’ve seen people who became “Born Again” and claim that they live a more faithful life as opposed to the sinful life they lived as Catholics. Forget that they weren’t good Catholics to begin with. But this goes back to priests making the time to make sure these people know what the teachings are and how they can live them.

Amen, I am glad that in my Diocese exactly what you describe is being done. We have a very orthodox young priest who comes to our young adult bible study, we have my own parish hosting classes on catechisis of church doctrine, Vatican II, apologetics etc. It is easy to make an appointment with a priest. I think the heretics taking over the implementation of Vatican II did much harm to the church (in reference to my post early, Catholic Bishops can be heretics). But I think there is also now a realization of what happened, and there is a new “John Paul II” generation as they call a lot of us.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Amen, I am glad that in my Diocese exactly what you describe is being done. We have a very orthodox young priest who comes to our young adult bible study, we have my own parish hosting classes on catechisis of church doctrine, Vatican II, apologetics etc. It is easy to make an appointment with a priest. I think the heretics taking over the implementation of Vatican II did much harm to the church (in reference to my post early, Catholic Bishops can be heretics). But I think there is also now a realization of what happened, and there is a new “John Paul II” generation as they call a lot of us.

There is a few good things I found Orthodoxy to be doing well in this regard. One is that almost never do we ever move priests around. Now, it happens out of necessity, like if a parish closes or for some reason the priest himself (and his family) needs to move. But priests are usually attached to a parish for life. My current priest has been in the same parish he has been since he has become an Orthodox priest (he was Anglican before), and that was in 1988. Some people try to find a theological reason to why we call priests “Father”, but the simple fact of it is that our parish is our extended family and the priest is the father of this family.

I’d love to see more of this in RC parishes.

 

[crazzeto]

There is a few good things I found Orthodoxy to be doing well in this regard. One is that almost never do we ever move priests around. Now, it happens out of necessity, like if a parish closes or for some reason the priest himself (and his family) needs to move. But priests are usually attached to a parish for life. My current priest has been in the same parish he has been since he has become an Orthodox priest (he was Anglican before), and that was in 1988. Some people try to find a theological reason to why we call priests “Father”, but the simple fact of it is that our parish is our extended family and the priest is the father of this family.

I’d love to see more of this in RC parishes.

Moving priests would be up to the Bishop, I think Raleigh is on a 5 or 6 year rotation and priests can have an extension. Not moving priests would be good, but since I’m not the Bishop I can’t speak to his reasoning for the policy.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Moving priests would be up to the Bishop, I think Raleigh is on a 5 or 6 year rotation and priests can have an extension. Not moving priests would be good, but since I’m not the Bishop I can’t speak to his reasoning for the policy.

Rotating priests is standard practice in the RC. Even when I was in the Philippines that happened on a regular cycle. One of the reasons I undertook my faith journey was because a priest from my last RC parish was moved out. He’s the type of guy that I’d really schedule my weekends so I can attend Mass there and nowhere else.

I can understand the reason for it, but the issues on the sale of indulgences have been gone for centuries. I don’t think anyone is paying priests today to get indulgences. If the RCC really wants to be in touch with people then they need to keep priests in their parishes and allow them to take root with the community.

Even Protestant communities keep their pastors in the same place.

 

[crazzeto]

Rotating priests is standard practice in the RC. Even when I was in the Philippines that happened on a regular cycle. One of the reasons I undertook my faith journey was because a priest from my last RC parish was moved out. He’s the type of guy that I’d really schedule my weekends so I can attend Mass there and nowhere else.

I can understand the reason for it, but the issues on the sale of indulgences have been gone for centuries. I don’t think anyone is paying priests today to get indulgences. If the RCC really wants to be in touch with people then they need to keep priests in their parishes and allow them to take root with the community.

Even Protestant communities keep their pastors in the same place.

As I understand it is a post Vatican II practice, but I don’t think any Bishop is actually required to follow it. Protestants churches are frequently built on their pastors (who are very well paid) so they have no real reason to move people around (in fact every reason not to if they have a good pastor).

 

[ConstantineTG]

As I understand it is a post Vatican II practice, but I don’t think any Bishop is actually required to follow it. Protestants churches are frequently built on their pastors (who are very well paid) so they have no real reason to move people around (in fact every reason not to if they have a good pastor).

Not that I’ve been everywhere, but I have yet to find a bishop that doesn’t do this.

The only parishes that keep their priests are those run by Religious Orders, for the obvious reason that the Local Ordinary has no authority to move religious priests.

 

[fred_conty]

There is a few good things I found Orthodoxy to be doing well in this regard. One is that almost never do we ever move priests around. Now, it happens out of necessity, like if a parish closes or for some reason the priest himself (and his family) needs to move. But priests are usually attached to a parish for life. My current priest has been in the same parish he has been since he has become an Orthodox priest (he was Anglican before), and that was in 1988. Some people try to find a theological reason to why we call priests “Father”, but the simple fact of it is that our parish is our extended family and the priest is the father of this family.

I’d love to see more of this in RC parishes.

Moving or not moving priests depends on the priest whether it is advantageous or not.

Some people can’t wait for a certain priest to be moved, and I’ve even heard on CAF recently where one person was praying for it. I have been glad when some are and when some aren’t. I think this system of moving is better on everyone. Not everyone is cut out to be a pastor. In fact Billy Graham once said he did not want to be a pastor.

I do agree about each home being visited and blessed by the priest at least every 5 years.
This could be done by making a visitation to 20 percent of the parishoners each year.
5 hours a week would probably make it possible. I think this might help those slipping thru the cracks for it does create a bond.

Just an idea.
“We are the light of the world, not to be hidden but be seen.” (hymn)

 

[ConstantineTG]

Moving or not moving priests depends on the priest whether it is advantageous or not.

Some people can’t wait for a certain priest to be moved, and I’ve even heard on CAF recently where one person was praying for it. I have been glad when some are and when some aren’t. I think this system of moving is better on everyone. Not everyone is cut out to be a pastor. In fact Billy Graham once said he did not want to be a pastor.

I do agree about each home being visited and blessed by the priest at least every 5 years.
This could be done by making a visitation to 20 percent of the parishoners each year.
5 hours a week would probably make it possible. I think this might help those slipping thru the cracks for it does create a bond.

Just an idea.
“We are the light of the world, not to be hidden but be seen.” (hymn)

That is the thing, how do you work out your own relationship with the priest? People keep saying that the priest is married to the Church (I don’t agree, but that is a popular notion), and yet here we are wanting to divorce our priests all the time and move on to the next guy. I think this misses the point.