Why Do Catholics Minimize Christ?

[NinaM]

Why do Catholics claim there can’t be any Christianity without the Catholic Church and why do they claim it’s impossible to understand anything in the Bible unless it’s interpreted through Church authorities?

Why do they believe it’s impossible for God to act or for His word to be available to all His children unless they allow it?

 

[jpk1313]

Why do Catholics claim there can’t be any Christianity without the Catholic Church and why do they claim it’s impossible to understand anything in the Bible unless it’s interpreted through Church authorities?

Why do they believe it’s impossible for God to act or for His word to be available to all His children unless they allow it?

There can be no christianity without the church becuse the church is christianity the church is in possesion of the fullness of all spiritual truth and without the church there would be no christianity becuse the church is the vehical that carries the gosple to the world. the bible must be interprated by the church through the holy spirit. idividual interpratation leads to error. by interprating the bible collectivly through prayerfull reading those the holy spirit has placed in the leadership roles of the church are able to pass on the truths that make up christian doctirne. the word is avalible to anyone who wishes to read it and do not need church permission to do so. however if in reading the bible you come to concluions that are opposed to church dogma then the conclutions are wrong due to using human reason to understand that which can only be understood by relying on the holy spirit for intepratation. (sorry for the poor spelling)

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

Why do Catholics claim there can’t be any Christianity without the Catholic Church and why do they claim it’s impossible to understand anything in the Bible unless it’s interpreted through Church authorities?

Why do they believe it’s impossible for God to act or for His word to be available to all His children unless they allow it?

Catholics believe that there can’t be any Christianity without the Catholic Church because we believe that the Catholic Church is the original Church. Many churches make similar claims. Our claim is that the Catholic Church is the original Church, that has continued to exist for 2000 years. Yes, there are many other people that are Christians outside of the Church.

As far as the Bible, we believe that everyone can come to an understanding of the scriptures, and we hear them read in church, and we also should read the scriptures on our own. However, whose interpretation is right? One person or church says that the Bible says this, while another says that it says this other contradictory statement. Catholics believe that God left His Church to properly safeguard the scriptures and guide the faithful in interpreting the scriptures. It is incorrect to state that the Catholic position is that it is impossible to understand anything in the Bible. I understand much of it just fine. However on certain concepts that may be confusing or that may have different interpretations, we can look to the Church for guidance in that matter.

Catholics do not believe that it is impossible for God to act unless the Church allows it. God is not bound by the Church. He can and does act through the Church and our sacraments, but that does not mean that He is not available outside of the sacraments or the Church proper. I approach God daily, asking for His help and guidance in various matters. I’m assuming you do as well.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Why do some Protestants minimize Christ by disregarding the Church He founded and attempting to separate the two? Isn’t it ‘minimizing’ Christ to disregard His words and teachings?

 

[Nominefili]

I’m Lutheran and I still don’t really understand where this thread is going. Our beef with Rome is about extraneous things in addition to Christ, but that’s not necessarily ‘minimizing’ Christ.

The Church is necessary; it is through the Church that we can fulfill Christ’s mandate to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” The question is not whether we need the Church or not, the question is what constitutes Christ’s Church, and whether or not Rome has a monopoly on Christianity.

But to say that the establishment of a church minimizes Christ is ludicrous.

 

[Eucharisted]

OP has been reported.

 

[youngsaint]

The Church is necessary; it is through the Church that we can fulfill Christ’s mandate to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” The question is not whether we need the Church or not, the question is what constitutes Christ’s Church, and whether or not Rome has a monopoly on Christianity.

Ummmmmm, I don’t have a degree in English, but I’m pretty darn sure that your contradicting yourself.

Sure as heck we do! We were here first, we’re the army of christ that has lasted over 2000 years. The bible says Peter was in charge, who passed to St. Linus, who passed it to St. Cletus, and down the line, all the way to Pope Benedict. When did the Popes suddenly become an idea of man? And since when did we get to disobey Christ himself, who but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church in charge?

You protestants are so confusing.

 

[Janet1983]

There can be no Christianity without the church because the church is Christianity the church is in possession of the fullness of all spiritual truth and without the church there would be no Christianity because the church is the vehicle that carries the gospel to the world. the bible must be interpreted by the church through the holy spirit. individual interpretation leads to error. by interpreting the bible collectively through prayerful reading those the holy spirit has placed in the leadership roles of the church are able to pass on the truths that make up christian doctrine. the word is available to anyone who wishes to read it and do not need church permission to do so. however if in reading the bible you come to conclusions that are opposed to church dogma then the conclusions are wrong due to using human reason to understand that which can only be understood by relying on the holy spirit for interpretation.

Well if there is no Christianity without the Catholic Church how come there are so many Christians outside of the Catholic Church?
I am a former Catholic and I am a Christian. Most of my friends have never been Catholic and they are Christians too…

 

[Drawmack]

There can be no christianity without the church becuse the church is christianity the church is in possesion of the fullness of all spiritual truth and without the church there would be no christianity becuse the church is the vehical that carries the gosple to the world. the bible must be interprated by the church through the holy spirit. idividual interpratation leads to error. by interprating the bible collectivly through prayerfull reading those the holy spirit has placed in the leadership roles of the church are able to pass on the truths that make up christian doctirne. the word is avalible to anyone who wishes to read it and do not need church permission to do so. however if in reading the bible you come to concluions that are opposed to church dogma then the conclutions are wrong due to using human reason to understand that which can only be understood by relying on the holy spirit for intepratation. (sorry for the poor spelling)

So, you are claiming that the selection of Bishops is done by the Holy Spirit and is thus infallible?

 

[Drawmack]

Ummmmmm, I don’t have a degree in English, but I’m pretty darn sure that your contradicting yourself.

Sure as heck we do! We were here first, we’re the army of christ that has lasted over 2000 years. The bible says Peter was in charge, who passed to St. Linus, who passed it to St. Cletus, and down the line, all the way to Pope Benedict. When did the Popes suddenly become an idea of man? And since when did we get to disobey Christ himself, who but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church in charge?

You protestants are so confusing.

Why didn’t Peter get a greeting from Paul, who knew Peter, in the book of Romans? Matter of fact, why was Paul writing to the sheep being personally seen to by the Rock on which the Church is built on theological matters? Did Peter have trouble doing his job?

 

[Janet1983]

OP has been reported.

Why?

 

[Doxiemom]

Well, as far as worship goes, I think the the Catholic Mass is the most Christ-centered form of worship that there is. It is all about Jesus. I mean, look at that great big crucifix !!!

beyond that, if one fails to be Christ centered, it is that person’s fault.

 

[Janet1983]

Well, as far as worship goes, I think the the Catholic Mass is the most Christ-centered form of worship that there is. It is all about Jesus. I mean, look at that great big crucifix !!!

beyond that, if one fails to be Christ centered, it is that person’s fault.

Just because there is a crucifix in the room does not make a mass Christ-centered… Decoration does not change anybody’s attitude… I could plaster my house with crucifixes and crosses and then I could muster up the most pious behavior and secretly love the admiration I get through that and put all my goodies out on the front lawn and it would not make me Christ-centered…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

BECAUSE we are Christ-centered, we have crucifixes. They come out of Christ-centeredness. IOW, they are the result, not the cause. You seem to imply that we put them up (if at all) to ‘make us think of Christ’ which is just the wrong way around. The ‘thinking of Christ’ comes first, not the crucifixes to ‘make us think’ of Christ.

I’m sure you did not mean at ALL, Janet, to imply that Catholics are simply out to present themselves as ‘pious’ and get all sorts of satisfaction from their crucifixes and statues etc. while never REALLY believing in Christ at all.

 

[Nominefili]

BECAUSE we are Christ-centered, we have crucifixes. They come out of Christ-centeredness. IOW, they are the result, not the cause. You seem to imply that we put them up (if at all) to ‘make us think of Christ’ which is just the wrong way around. The ‘thinking of Christ’ comes first, not the crucifixes to ‘make us think’ of Christ.

I’m sure you did not mean at ALL, Janet, to imply that Catholics are simply out to present themselves as ‘pious’ and get all sorts of satisfaction from their crucifixes and statues etc. while never REALLY believing in Christ at all.

Hey I’m a UVA grad too lol (college '08)… not to hijack the thread but I saw your location

 

[twopekinguys]

Why?

This is a guess only, but if you look, her post count is 3 (as of the time of this post), but if you look at her history of posts, there is only 1.

The mods have more than likely removed 2 inappropriate posts, that could have been on this thread at some point.

Like I said, it is just a guess.

 

[abucs]

Why do Catholics claim there can’t be any Christianity without the Catholic Church and why do they claim it’s impossible to understand anything in the Bible unless it’s interpreted through Church authorities?

Why do they believe it’s impossible for God to act or for His word to be available to all His children unless they allow it?

Catholics believe that the church Jesus founded was central to his reason for incarnation. No church, no letters to the churches, no new testament, no bible, no church worship, architecture, art, no structure of religious study and orders, no Christian western civilisation for the last 2000 years.

As our Lutheran friend suggests, there is different opinions on the nature of the church, but it’s pretty obvious there was a church and that church, history tells us, is catholic, depending on how you then understand ‘catholic’.

My interpretation of the Catholic church, that headed by the successor of Peter - the Pope, has said that the large minority of Christians without apostolic succession are in fact Christians. No-one says that there are no Christians outside the Catholic church. I hope this puts your mind at rest.

He does not say, and neither does the Church say, that it is impossible to understand anything in the Bible unless it’s interpreted through the church. I think there are only 7 instances in the NT where the church has made a definite proclamation. i can be a muslim for example, or an atheist and read the NT and understand that Jesus had a mother named Mary. I hope this also makes you more content.

Catholics do not believe that it is impossible for God to act unless someone in the Catholic church allow its. This too is absurd. It puts man higher than God and no one except the atheist would agree with. I hope this also helps to dispel some of your ideas about the Catholic church.

What the church does say is that it is the continuous Christian Church since the time of Christ and carries with it the writings and traditions of original Christianity and so is best placed to interpret the NT because it has a living tradition that comes out of Judaism and the new covenant of Christianity. It has a history of thousands of theologians, text and language and culture experts pouring over the texts and writing their comments with the support from their own geographical histories that trace back to the time of the writings of the NT. It has the presence of the councils of Bishops from all over Christendom that have met at various times to agree on their own heritage. It is infinitey more credible then someone simply picking up the NT and reading it in English and interpreting it for themselves. Not that you cannot understand anything, but that much of the underlying theological concepts of the writings have certain nuances and are often better understood from a credible historical perspective that the church has because of its 2000 year old history.

Hope this helps.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Well if there is no Christianity without the Catholic Church how come there are so many Christians outside of the Catholic Church?
I am a former Catholic and I am a Christian. Most of my friends have never been Catholic and they are Christians too…

Janet:

I assume you were born into the Catholic Church sometime between the late-1960’s and the early 1990’s, or that’s when you grew up. I’m sad to say that you probably received very little grounding in the Catholic Faith - The Faith that (until the Protestant Reformation) was taught to everyone, everywhere, from the time of the Apostles.

I could go into detail using the rest of this thread to describe what you should have been taught - about the Law of God & our Sinfulness before it, about God’s love, mercy and Grace. I could describe how for us and for our salvation, our Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son, became incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. I could describe how, on the night in which he was betrayed, our Lord instituted the Eucharist, not as a “Memorial Meal”, but as a participation in that Sedar Meal and His sacrifice on Good Friday (that’s the original Greek). I could describe how, after His death and Resurrection, our Lord gave His Apostles authority to teach in His name and told them that he would send the Paraclete, who would “lead them into all truth”. I could show you that the Greek in Acts 12:12-14 says “The Prayers” (Liturgia) meaning the Apostles and Disciples were celebrating the Eucharist DAILY while waiting for the Holy Spirit to Overshadow them. and, I could show you John 6, where our Lord commands us to gnaw on His Flesh and drink His Blood - and the Book of Revelation which is both the Liturgy of the Easter Vigil, where newly Baptized Converts were welcomed into the Catholic Church, and a snapshot of the Heavenly Liturgy, of which our Divine Liturgy is just a foretaste…

I could show you how you cheated yourself by doing what I did once and leaving Christ’s one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and I could show you what it means to be separated from the fountain of Grace that is formed by the Sacraments, and how Schism is the Child of the Reformation, How schism is the natural result of separation from the Church Christ founded and from the authority structures He put in place for our service and for our protection.

Although I’m an Anglican, the Catholic Doctrine I’ve been taught was first taught to me by “High Church Anglicans” and then by the likes of Fr. Joseph Fessio and Fr. Brian Mullady.

You can choose to disagree with everything I say, but you will be disagreeing with most of the Early Church Fathers from Polycarp of Smyrna and Ignatius of Antioch all of the way to the Venerable Bede St. John of Damascus, and you will be disagreeing with the first 7 Ecumenical Councils of the Church, all of which were concluded before the Schism of Lateran. You will also find yourself disagreeing with the Church which, under the inspiration & guidance of the Holy Spirit, decided which books belong in both the New and Old Testaments. Note The Jews who met AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. couldn’t have been acting under the influence & guidance of the H.S., because they specifically cursed Christ & His followers.

You can be a Christian outside Christ’s one, holy Catholic and Apostolic, but it’s like trying to row across the open sea in a LIFEBOAT when a huge OCEAN LINER is available, or trying to ride a bicycle across a desert in summer when scheduled AIR-CONDITIONED HIGH SPEED RAIL is available. It just doesn’t make sense.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

So, you are claiming that the selection of Bishops is done by the Holy Spirit and is thus infallible?

Drawmack:

I wish it were so. We all know Matthias was added to the list of the 12 (Acts 1:17ff), but we also know the one the Holy Spirit seems to have added was that troublemaker Paul! Many Bishops & Popes must be assigned their positions by someone, or the Church would never have expanded as quickly throughout the known world as she did, or made it through the persecutions and the Great Heresies that she did, or have nearly as many Bishop-Martyrs & Pope-Martyrs as she has. and, We most certainly wouldn’t have our Bibles to look at, read and study.

I still remember sitting in the TV Room one night and hearing a voice say, “Well, I guess the Holy Spirit vetoed our election! Anyone want to say Mass for a NEW POPE?!?” At the time of his election, the one who’s election was later “vetoed” said, “The one you should have elected was sitting over there!” pointing to where a certain POLISH CARDINAL was sitting…

Someone know which one the Holy Spirit wanted, because the next Pope was Pope John Paul II, who got a LOT more things right than wrong, and revived a Catholic Church many thought was moribund at best. I lived through the later Pope Paul VI years, and I dealt with priests who accused anyone who carried a Bible of being a “Bible-thumping religious fanatic”, and taught a CCD class where the original texts were so bad I had to resort to digging up some old copies of The Baltimore Catechism and some Bibles (& teaching the class from them). The difference between these priests and those ordained under Pope John Paul II (esp since the late-1980’s), and the difference in the quality of teaching materials, is nothing short of miraculous.

The Office of Pope is a Prophetic and a Teaching Office. And the Bishops are supposd to teach IN UNION with him. If you don’t believe me, look at the CONFIRMED PROPHECIES in Humanae Vitae. Remember, for the first 3-5 years after Abortion was made legal by Roe v. Wade, VERY FEW Protestants protested against Abortion, because, “If the Catholics opposed it, it must be OK.” It took the likes of Jerry Falwell, Phyllis Schaefly and people such as them to get Protestants to understand that Abortion wasn’t a Catholic - Protestant Issue, but a Human Rights Issue involving that most basic of rights, the Right to Life.

If you want o know what the Catholic Church teaches about Infallibility - I’ve linked something here. If you have any questions, please ask.

Drawmack, just like most Protestant Congregations would like to think they were “led” by the Holy Spirit to hire their pastors, so must Catholics would like to think the Holy Spirit guides the Church’s election of Popes and the Popes’ appointment of Bishops.

Now, I don’t want to make this an argument about the problems with Protestantism, but I can… I suggest we stop your line of reasoning and possibly this uncharitable thread…

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[beckycmarie]

On another forum, a poster commented on sola scriptura saying,

Christ did not found a book but a Church made up of a communion of saints who are alive on Earth, in Purgatory and in Heaven. It is this Catholic Church, and not a book, that He deposited and entrusted His Gospel message for the world to hear. And not to hear the Church He founded, as Christ warned, is to reject God because “… he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).