Why do Catholics often seem less than involved in their faith?

[Tis_Bearself]

That’s why I’m asking people’s thoughts.

And people are giving you their thoughts.
I would hope you weren’t expecting to just get positive thoughts agreeing with your view?

In addition to what Cruciferi posted, there’s

Matthew 6:1-6

(1) [But] take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.

(2) When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.

(3) But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing,

(4) so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

(5) When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.

(6) But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

Don’t expect to see all the ways Catholics pray, give, and commune with their God. Because this clearly directs them to not be putting on a show for you. And there are quite a few who take that seriously.

 

[DeniseNY]

Did you quote it to make me feel bad about having a beam in my own eye?

We all have beams. That’s why it’s best to ignore what may seem like someone else’s speck.

Also, can you clarify why it seems to you that people at Liturgy are just 'rushing to complete a formula like their brains are wired for automatic responses that they don’t pay much thought to"?

 

[Ilkka]

Thanks for asking.

Well, if the priest doesn’t wait for the congregation to say ’amen’ or if he talks so fast that the words actually melt together. And if during the Eucharist he only holds the Host up for less than a second and then rushes to pick up the chalice. This kind of things.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

if he talks so fast that the words actually melt together.

I know a priest that sometimes reads prayers exceedingly quickly to the point that it seems they melt together yet they are said with obvious reverence. I know him to be very devout. He joyfully fulfills is vocation to his utmost ability. He has an evident love and passion for God and the liturgy. He is a much beloved priest of the diocese. I can’t imagine that anyone who knows him would accuse him of not being “involved” in his faith.

You cannot judge these things by speed or appearances.

 

[Ilkka]

You cannot judge these things by speed or appearances.

Yes, I know this. It’s a very central teaching of Christ.

That’s why I also feel bad that people immediately think I’m being judgemental when I’m not because that is also passing a judgement on me and my intentions.

I deeply care for the Church and all of her members. It’s my concern that maybe there are many Catholics who don’t realize what great riches they have when they are in the Church. My questions were not born of a spirit of condemnation but of passion and love for Christ and His Church.

 

[Ilkka]

That’s why it’s best to ignore what may seem like someone else’s speck.

I also want to understand why some things that seem to me as indifference can actually be borne of reverence to the Lord. That’s why my language is always ’seems’ and not ’is’ because I don’t know. I’ve had a hard lesson about being judgemental on my way from anti-Catholic to Catholic. I’ve learned to dig deeper to find answers. That’s why I don’t just carelessly state something as a fact when I don’t know the true state of things.

But yeah, there is not only a beam in my eye. Without Christ, I would have no eyes to begin with. If I ever see, it is Christ who gives me sight.

 

[TK421]

@Ilkka

This is why it is best to work through these questions in real life, such as with a spiritual director, because that person is going to feel indebted to help you and to assume the best out of you, as is morally obligatory. Your motives will not be put before a tribunal. For what it’s worth I’m genuinely sorry if this thread has made you discouraged in any way. I’ve seen it play out time and time again. I do hope that your experience in RCIA continues to be very positive.

The internet is an unparalleled resource for information but it is not a good place for becoming grounded.

 

[Ilkka]

I would hope you weren’t expecting to just get positive thoughts agreeing with your view?

I most certainly wasn’t. Could I have been any clearer about that when I said this in my original post:

”Is there even a hint of truth here or is it just my false interpretation?”

Or this:

”I might be wrong, of course. I could have made false interpretations of things that aren’t really there.”

I was OBVIOUSLY well aware that my impression was just as likely to be false as correct and even wanted to make sure people get this.

In addition to what Cruciferi posted, there’s

Matthew 6:1-6

Yeah. That is talking about people doing things to keep up an appearance in front of people and not for actual heartfelt reverence to God. What I was talking about, however, is that small things that people do CAN sometimes give up secrets of the heart.

Jesus is also commanding us to let our light shine before people so that they see our good works and give glory to God. So we see that appearances are not meaningless when they match what is inside the heart.

The way I see it is that the small things we do to glorify God are also very important. If we do them carelessly we might give the wrong impressions (as happened in my case). But then again, I’m not judging anyone based on those small things. In fact, I believe that whenever I point a finger at someone, three fingers point towards me. My concern is for the Church as a whole.

 

[Ilkka]

Thank you! Your kind-hearted message made me feel good because you showed me that you were willing to understand my point of view. I will take your advice to heart.

And again, thank you.

 

[TK421]

I know what you meant and I know that you weren’t judging anybody in the congregation. You did nothing wrong. You simply want to understand.

Peace.

 

[PeterT]

Sorry, but it’s just common sense to me that if you’re a new member of a club, you don’t go on the message forum for all the most active members and start complaining about how lazy all the people you see at your local club meetings act.

Such a question is better discussed one on one with the new member orientation leader.

I echo what 1ke said about assumptions. To assume is simply wrong behavior. The Scripture says over and over again don’t judge, don’t assume based on appearances, and that an outward appearance of holiness at prayer time might be false. If somebody came from an Evangelical background they should be knowing and following this Scripture already.

. . . . The OP points are valid, though I would caution the OP and others not too judge too harshly those in the congregation who might appear to be saying the prayers in a rote-like manner. They might be deep into the great mysteries of the Mass. And while a few priests do rush through the Mass, which goes against some of the instructions found in the General Instructions of the Roman Missal (GIRM), it’s been my own personal experience at Mass that most priest do not rush the Mass and celebrate it at a reverent pace.

I welcome any newcomer to our Church and love to hear about their feelings and concerns about how we celebrate the Mass. They often offer a fresh perspective on our Catholic Faith that those of us who have been Catholics all of our lives cannot easily see and recognize. Their (name removed by moderator)ut is very valuable to the Church and shouldn’t be readily dismissed or played down.

 

[boldlygo]

Welcome Home! Welcome to the Catholic Church!
I rejoice in the fact that you were led by the Holy Spirit to the Church that Jesus Christ gave to humanity 2,000 years ago, and that you are embracing your newfound faith.
Please continue to ask questions.
Please continue to grow actively in your faith.
I’ve been a member of our parish RCIA team for 25 years, and I’ve seen people of all ages and backgrounds come to Catholicism, and it’s always a blessing to be able to journey with them.
We’ll be meeting tonight, and you and your journey will be in our prayers.

 

[Maximus1]

I certainly hope I did not accuse. Certainly not toward any suggestion of any culpable wrong. I was just thinking there are lots of diverse practices. There are inspired sermons and not so inspired. People do attend as if there is a staleness.
I don’t pretend to know their hearts and frankly I do not know if affect in a service is a fair standard to judge ones heart, mind, or soul.
I frankly do not understand your points about supernatural. Loving ones neighbor as we love ourselves is natural? Supernatural? I don’t know.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

It is so easy for us to get caught up in the so-called rat race of life.
We must endeavor to persevere what is important. Giving praise and glory to God, and loving and lifting up our brothers and sisters.

 

[fide]

I frankly do not understand your points about supernatural. Loving ones neighbor as we love ourselves is natural? Supernatural? I don’t know.

Several things “on the table” here - under discussion - are importantly related to the distinction between natural and supernatural goods. Why a given person is sitting in a Catholic pew on a Sunday morning - whether it is because of natural faith, or supernatural faith - is very important. Whether a given person, in a given act of kindness toward another person, is acting in natural love or in supernatural and divine charity/love - is very very important.

A helpful article on the Catholic website HPR (Homiletic & Pastoral Review) on “Natural and Supernatural Faith” can be found and read HERE (link).

It is so very important that we grow in the infused, supernatural virtues and gifts given to us in Baptism. Such growth - in the interior man, in the life of prayer, the life in Christ - is what our walk as Catholics ought to be all about.

 

[Ilkka]

Thank you for your words, those of encouragement and insightful guidance as well. I will guard my heart against false judgements and will do my best to delay any judgement unless the situation calls for a quick decision. I most certainly don’t wish to insult anyone or make them feel condemned by my words.

That being said, I have utmost respect and love for the Church because it is God’s establishment. That’s why I also want everything in it to bring glory to God through our Lord Jesus Christ. I don’t care about the Mass structure itself as long as it’s licit and everything in the Mass is done with reverence and love for the Lord. When I feel that something about the Mass just isn’t right or takes away from true reverence and honouring of our God, that’s when I want to find ways to overcome that nasty sensation and the temptation to make judgements. Trust me, I don’t wish to judge anyone. That’s why I rather ask than proclaim something as truth (unless I really know).

But thanks again. I can tell you’re a wise brother in Christ. May the prayers of the Holy Mother and all the Saints accompany you on your earthly marathon.

In Christ,
Ilkka

 

[Ilkka]

you and your journey will be in our prayers.

Oh, thank you so much!

If I may present another prayer request it would be really nice of you to pray for my wife as well. She is having a crisis of faith and considers herself semi-agnostic. Maybe this is just a start for something great and I believe it is because I trust in Jesus. But I really need prayers so that I would find the right words and also the right moments to shut up.

Thank you

 

[Edmundus1581]

I’ve only glanced through the responses.

Maybe this is because I come from a protestant background where the internal experiences were the defining feature of faith.

Very good observation! And also very common as a Protestant view of Catholic life.

What do you think? Is there even a hint of truth here or is it just my false interpretation?

A bit of both.

You are certainly not the first person to have made these observations, both from outside the Church and from within it as a new convert. Whether cradle Catholics ever think the same, I don’t know.

I myself come from a Protestant background and was received into the Church in 1981. I was enthusiastic and full of my new faith, and was quite disappointed to find other Catholics just turning up and (apparently) just going through the motions and, in get-togethers after Mass, becoming more animated about the football results than any religious matters. It was almost as if they avoided talking about religion.

I’ve read in a book about a famous convert’s journey (I think it was Rome Sweet Home, by Scott Hahn) that he and his wife had very similar disillusionment between the excitement and drama of their conversion, and then finding ordinary parish life.

For me, I don’t think about it anymore (much). Probably what’s made the difference is discovering in my own life how hard it is to practice the faith to my own expectations. Feeling like over forty years I’ve almost gone backwards, rather than forwards. There have been periods where “turning up and going through the motions” was the best I could do and felt like great weight.

Still, just a couple of weekends ago I was at Mass in the Cathedral and it was nearly full. There was a good cantor leading the singing, and the music was very good. Apart from the cantor, only two people in the whole congregation joined in the singing - myself and a friend who I bumped into before Mass and who sat beside me. I had to think - why is nobody singing?, and also think that it reflected poorly on them. It’s probably an Australian thing where false humility is common - but Australian Protestant congregations usually do sing very well.

 

[Dan_Defender]

People are at at different points in their faith journey, yes. Do not judge them.
Seek to imitate Christ and his saints. That is what matters.

 

[boldlygo]

If I may present another prayer request it would be really nice of you to pray for my wife as well. She is having a crisis of faith and considers herself semi-agnostic. Maybe this is just a start for something great and I believe it is because I trust in Jesus. But I really need prayers so that I would find the right words and also the right moments to shut up.

Thank you

Done!! Know that you and your wife are in our prayers.