Why do Catholics play the role of victim so much?

[SIA]

Arguing backwards to prove a point?? What are you, a psychologist? I’m not arguing backwards. I simply made a point that whatever the Scriptures would have said is the one true Church that Christ established would draw all Christians. You are trying to spin a spider web around a very simple point and statement.

 

[LilyM]

It would be flawed if I stated that one of these churches was the One Church that Christ founded, but I never said that. If Scripture said that the RCC is the one true Church founded by Christ, every Christian would be RC. No way to get around that one!

So by this logic, why isn’t every human Christian, since Christianity is the one church founded by Christ?

If some Jews, Muslims and atheists are outside of Christ’s one true Church, it stands to reason that some so-called Christian denominations are every bit as capable of being outside of that church.

Taking on the label of Christian doesn’t give every person nor every denomination that does so access to the truth or make them part of His true Church.

2 Pet 2:1 [NIV] “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them–bringing swift destruction on themselves.”

 

[kalt]

flawed? Are you ascerting that not all Christians long to be close to Christ? You are the one here that is seriously flawed. That thinking is seriously warped.

If that’s what I was saying, yes it would be a flawed argument. Since it isn’t what I was saying, but what you “needed” to interpret to make yourself correct…

Yes, I’m flawed. Aren’t we all? Seriously flawed? I don’t think so.

So let’s keep our discussion about the topics not the people.

Your argument was…

“Here we go again! Can you please show me in the Scriptures where the Church founded by Christ is the RCC. If it said that the RCC was the Church Christ founded; the one true Church then every Christian worldwide would be Catholic and this is certainly not the case.”

This is a flawed argument.

The CC is the one, true Church. That is true. It’s also true that some will choose not to join the one, true church.

It’s not true that because the CC is the one, true Church, all Xians will choose to join it.

Your argument that if the CC is the one, true Church no Xian would join another Xian church is flawed.

 

[kalt]

Arguing backwards to prove a point?? What are you, a psychologist? I’m not arguing backwards. I simply made a point that whatever the Scriptures would have said is the one true Church that Christ established would draw all Christians. You are trying to spin a spider web around a very simple point and statement.

I clearly proved that this is not true. It wasn’t true long before what you mistakenly believe is the birth of the “RCC”, The early Church, what you consider the “real church” was dealing with heresy before the 4th century and long before the reformation.

You need to do some study. If you’re not going to do that, at least accept the facts when they’re presented. You continue to present the same logically flawed arguments using the same mistaken “facts”.

 

[kalt]

It would be flawed if I stated that one of these churches was the One Church that Christ founded, but I never said that. If Scripture said that the RCC is the one true Church founded by Christ, every Christian would be RC. No way to get around that one!

Then you’re saying that all Xianity is the one, true Church.

That is also a flawed argument, since the teachings in these diverse denominations contradict.

Truth can’t contradict truth.

The Bible doesn’t name the RCC, as you call it. It also doesn’t name the Baptist church or any other denomination.

What it specifically doesn’t name is a plethera of churches. It is definitely ONE church that Jesus forms. Peter is it’s head. All are instructed to teach.

Teach what? Whatever they “think” something means? Hardly.

It’s obvious from the quotation I posted earlier, that the early Church, before the birth of the RCC as you mistakenly call the CC, long before the Reformation, was battling heresy.

It was never OK to have differing doctrines.

The Catholic Church, including the Roman Rite, is One in belief.

 

[kalt]

Acrimony? As I said, I think it’s funny.

The documents were referenced within the article. I’m thinking you didn’t read the whole article, but merely noticed that I didn’t say where it was printed.

I just find the whole thing funny. Not becuase it was posted by you, another on this forum, or simply on a Catholic forum. It’s just a funny human thing.

Imagine a SNL skit in which a security guard at a 7 Eleven doubts a West Point quotation on military maneuvers. He wants to know which expert wrote it, as if that will make any difference. lol

It’s just funny.

Now that we’ve cleared that up, and you can rest assured that this is not really about you, you’re free to provide a counter-argument.

kalt:

“As if the person here asking for the source is a better scholar or even knew, before he/she read the quote, that those documents evern existed.” - kalt

This makes no sense.

The way I decipher your statement, you are attempting to slam me for 1) presuming to be a superior scholar or 2) coyly pretending to have recognized your non-referenced documents and yet trying to compel you to reveal them. If I am way off-base with my interpretation of your statement, I invite you to share an explanation.

What is it with you? Do you think a smiley face emoticon will soften or excuse your acrimony?

marietta

 

[marietta]

kalt:

Because you did not take the time to correctly punctuate your quotation, the entire piece you quoted comes off as having originated from one source. In fact, it looks like a cut and paste, which leads me to ask again: Where did it come from? It’s not a “funny human thing” - it’s a lazy and obfuscating human thing.

What in the world is the harm in asking? If your aim is to evangelize or educate or “share the good news”, why turn it into a game?

I’m actually free to post here until the moderators throw me in the hoosegow (again), so no permission from you is warranted.

marietta

 

[jay29]

Arguing backwards to prove a point?? What are you, a psychologist? I’m not arguing backwards. I simply made a point that whatever the Scriptures would have said is the one true Church that Christ established would draw all Christians. You are trying to spin a spider web around a very simple point and statement.

Everyone was CATHOLIC before the year 1054 AD.

 

[wisdomseeker]

**Quote:
Originally Posted by SIA
Arguing backwards to prove a point?? What are you, a psychologist? I’m not arguing backwards. I simply made a point that whatever the Scriptures would have said is the one true Church that Christ established would draw all Christians. You are trying to spin a spider web around a very simple point and statement. **

that One True Church draw all christians that is what the Church is and the Church is the CC. all christians were Catholics before ML decided to be disobedient to the Church and begin his own churches. you do the search for yourself to find out how it was before and how it became after.

Blessed be God forever! Amen.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

With respect, SIA, you are neither making ‘clear’ statements nor are you arguing truth.

The Church which Scripture proclaims is the Catholic Church. However, we are told in Scripture that some would have ‘itching ears’ and would separate themselves from Christ’s Church.

All are welcome to “Come home to Rome” any time and re-enter the fullness of Truth.

Now, if you’re trying to argue that it was us ‘pesky Catholics’ who developed the itchy ears and ‘separated’ from the REAL Church, then you must be able to give a NAME to that real church, right? I mean, there must be a Church which was founded by Christ and has been in existence for nearly 2000 years, and had at times various adherents who ‘left’ or those who set themselves up against that real church, right?

So tell us, please. Which Church is the REAL Church?

Is it the Lutherans? Was Martin Luther the only priest of the “REAL Church” who remained? But of course, before Luther, what WAS the name of that “REAL CHURCH”, may I ask?

Is it the Episcopalians? Was Henry VIII the only true Christian in Britain, and was he the prophet who led the people ‘back’? But again, WHAT WAS THE NAME OF THE REAL CHURCH BEFORE HENRY???

You see, you are really stuck in a hard place. Either you admit that the Catholic Church WAS the “real church’ until it ‘went off the rails’ at some point. . .and you have to prove what the point was and who then of the Church ‘remained faithful’ and you have to be able to trace back to the apostles or else Scripture is false as 'the gates of hell prevailed against the church.”

Or else you think the Catholic Church was NEVER the real church. . .and THEN you have to be able to prove what the REAL CHURCH WAS. . .which you seem singularly UNWILLING TO DO. You claim the Church ‘offers no proof it was the one Scripture shows Christ founded’ --well then, GIVE US YOUR PROOF FOR THE CHURCH YOU CLAIM IS THE REAL CHURCH.

 

[Julianna]

If you really are the one true church that Christ founded, then why do you give a hoot what anyone else thinks of you? It amazes me the extent some of you will go to play the victim’s role.

I am one who doesn’t give a hoot what anyone thinks of me. I have been called a liberal…I am not. I have been called a radical feminist, I am not. I am a Catholic, yes. I am not an “in yer face” Catholic. If you ask a question, I’ll answer it the best way I can…I don’t pretend to have a plastic PHD in Catholicism.

As for the ice cream social, back slapping…yep, that is exactly how CAF would be if folks of other faiths or those who are thinking of coming home were not part of the discussion. It turns into a melee when someone disagrees with dogma. As if you didn’t have the right to disagree.

The victim mentality comes from the days of old…have you ever heard the joke…"The difference between Catholics and Episcopalians are…Espicopalian is “Catholic light,…all the same sins…half the guilt”. It is the guilt…the victim mentality that is the separation. Some folks are “letter of the law” types…hence the victim. Some…like myself are “spirit of the law” types. I’m not going to beat you over the head with facts, figures, truths, lies, and tell you that you are going to hell in a handbasket. It is not for me to say. I am as human as you are. I don’t know…and you don’t know either.

I believe what gets the more traditional folks in a bunch is that they believe they have to “defend” everything. They don’t. Answer the question and move on…but like the evangelicals that they loathe…they can’t let it go.

I hope you aren’t lumping all Catholics as victims. I am not a victim. I have not experienced the Catholic Church like some folks on here have. I basically ignore them…because…again…they don’t know it all…they think they do.

I have met many good folks on here. I have one that I disagree with alot…but he is someone I can lean on when I am feeling blue. He has a sense of humor…about most everything. I have great friend here who is a convert…love her to death. I have another who is a very “spiritual” and loving Catholic.

We are there…very few.

My Baptist grandmother had a saying…from the Bible…“a soft answer turns away wrath.”

When you hit some Catholics the wrong way…they will come out swinging. To me, it’s not worth the fight. I know what I know…I help where I can…I move on…

 

[estesbob]

If you really are the one true church that Christ founded, then why do you give a hoot what anyone else thinks of you? It amazes me the extent some of you will go to play the victim’s role.

The real question is why you give a hoot about what we think about you.? As I read your posts i can not help but wonder if your motive is not so much to convince us that Catholocism is wrong as it is to try and convince yourself.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am one who doesn’t give a hoot what anyone thinks of me. I have been called a liberal…I am not. I have been called a radical feminist, I am not. I am a Catholic, yes. I am not an “in yer face” Catholic. If you ask a question, I’ll answer it the best way I can…I don’t pretend to have a plastic PHD in Catholicism.

As for the ice cream social, back slapping…yep, that is exactly how CAF would be if folks of other faiths or those who are thinking of coming home were not part of the discussion. It turns into a melee when someone disagrees with dogma. As if you didn’t have the right to disagree.

The victim mentality comes from the days of old…have you ever heard the joke…"The difference between Catholics and Episcopalians are…Espicopalian is “Catholic light,…all the same sins…half the guilt”. It is the guilt…the victim mentality that is the separation. Some folks are “letter of the law” types…hence the victim. Some…like myself are “spirit of the law” types. I’m not going to beat you over the head with facts, figures, truths, lies, and tell you that you are going to hell in a handbasket. It is not for me to say. I am as human as you are. I don’t know…and you don’t know either.

I believe what gets the more traditional folks in a bunch is that they believe they have to “defend” everything. They don’t. Answer the question and move on…but like the evangelicals that they loathe…they can’t let it go.

I hope you aren’t lumping all Catholics as victims. I am not a victim. I have not experienced the Catholic Church like some folks on here have. I basically ignore them…because…again…they don’t know it all…they think they do.

I have met many good folks on here. I have one that I disagree with alot…but he is someone I can lean on when I am feeling blue. He has a sense of humor…about most everything. I have great friend here who is a convert…love her to death. I have another who is a very “spiritual” and loving Catholic.

We are there…very few.

My Baptist grandmother had a saying…from the Bible…“a soft answer turns away wrath.”

When you hit some Catholics the wrong way…they will come out swinging. To me, it’s not worth the fight. I know what I know…I help where I can…I move on…

i am with you.

 

[anamchara]

If you really are the one true church that Christ founded, then why do you give a hoot what anyone else thinks of you? It amazes me the extent some of you will go to play the victim’s role.

Yes, so true. I’ve noticed this for a long time in Catholic forums like this. There’s always this perceived big enemy out to get them. I haven’t noticed this fear as much with cradles as I’ve noticed it with certain types of converts where they allow fear to rule their thinking. They are constantly worried about anti-Catholic sentiments. Frankly, I’ve never ran across bigotry toward Catholics a day in my life. I’m not saying it’s not out there though, just not in my experience.

Also, something you have to realize is for Catholics in general**(not all of them)**, the concept of bearing a cross of any kind is seen as a good thing. For a few it’s a badge of honor. Unfortunately.

The suffering on the cross is a big major focus for many. The more you suffer the more blessings as it brings you close with Christ on the cross. I am a Catholic but I still have trouble wrapping my mind around that. I don’t think God wants any of his children to suffer. IMHO.

Some love to go find persecution even if it’s not there. They would probably be happy if they lived during the reformation so they could really have something to complain about.

:twocents:

 

[LRThunder]

Yes, so true. I’ve noticed this for a long time in Catholic forums like this. There’s always this perceived big enemy out to get them. I haven’t noticed this fear as much with cradles as I’ve noticed it with certain types of converts where they allow fear to rule their thinking. They are constantly worried about anti-Catholic sentiments. Frankly, I’ve never ran across bigotry toward Catholics a day in my life. I’m not saying it’s not out there though, just not in my experience.

Also, something you have to realize is for Catholics in general**(not all of them)**, the concept of bearing a cross of any kind is seen as a good thing. For a few it’s a badge of honor. Unfortunately.

The suffering on the cross is a big major focus for many. The more you suffer the more blessings as it brings you close with Christ on the cross. I am a Catholic but I still have trouble wrapping my mind around that. I don’t think God wants any of his children to suffer. IMHO.

Some love to go find persecution even if it’s not there. They would probably be happy if they lived during the reformation so they could really have something to complain about.

:twocents:

Or maybe, if we lived in, say California, we wouldn’t have to travel far.

 

[anamchara]

Or maybe, if we lived in, say California, we wouldn’t have to travel far.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Yes, so true. I’ve noticed this for a long time in Catholic forums like this. There’s always this perceived big enemy out to get them. I haven’t noticed this fear as much with cradles as I’ve noticed it with certain types of converts where they allow fear to rule their thinking. They are constantly worried about anti-Catholic sentiments. Frankly, I’ve never ran across bigotry toward Catholics a day in my life. I’m not saying it’s not out there though, just not in my experience.

Also, something you have to realize is for Catholics in general**(not all of them)**, the concept of bearing a cross of any kind is seen as a good thing. For a few it’s a badge of honor. Unfortunately.

The suffering on the cross is a big major focus for many. The more you suffer the more blessings as it brings you close with Christ on the cross. I am a Catholic but I still have trouble wrapping my mind around that. I don’t think God wants any of his children to suffer. IMHO.

Some love to go find persecution even if it’s not there. They would probably be happy if they lived during the reformation so they could really have something to complain about.

:twocents:

really! where did you get that idea? what happened to the apostles? did they go into a happy party binge after Jesus left?

what happened to the saying of Jesus: if any man wnats to follow me let him pick up his cross daily. if cross means suffers, there you have it.

Sorry!

 

[bethkcmo]

If you really are the one true church that Christ founded, then why do you give a hoot what anyone else thinks of you? It amazes me the extent some of you will go to play the victim’s role.

What do you mean “IF” the Catholic Church really is the one true church that Christ founded?

Please don’t worry about our feelings; may I recommend you spend your time instead reading the Apologist forum?

 

[ufamtobie]

You truly never grow tired of beating around the bush do you? The Trinity can be proven by many many verses in Scripture. Catholicism cannot. Big difference. Can you show me where the popes are in Scripture? Can you show me where they are carried into the Vatican masses on a chariot and surrounded by unspeakable wealth? Can you show me in Scripture where Peter was infallible? Show me also where Mary was assumed into Heaven body and soul. Truth is, you can’t show me. This is where the Catholic church now must elevate tradition and the magisterium to the same level of authority to justify their beliefs in these unbiblical things. I always love it when a Catholic cannot prove all these ridiculous claims about Mary using the Bible so then they resort to making the Bible even look inferior to other authorities in their church so that they can justify them. Just admit it, you can’t prove a number of Catholic beliefs from Scripture because they are not in there! More even, some of them are contradicted by Scripture! Go figure…

Sia,

**The Catholic Church is the Ministers of the New Covenant which Paul, spoke about in (2 Corinthians 3: 4) This great confidence in God is ours, through Christ. It is not what we are intitled of ourseleves to take credit of anything. Our sole credit is from God, who has made us Qualified Ministers of a new covenant, a covenant not written law but of SPIRIT. The written law kills but the Spirit gives life. **

(2 Corinthian 3: 8) how much greater will be the glory of the ministry of the spirit.

Sia, the Ministry of the Catholic Church is the Ministry of the Holy Spirit. Amen **(Acts 9: 31) Meanwhile throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria the CHURCH was at PEACE. It was being BUILT UP and was making STEADY PROGRESS in the FEAR of the LORD; at the SAME TIME it enjoyed the INCREASED CONSOLATION of the HOLY SPIRIT. **

Sia, Notice the words “BUILT UP”, making “STEADY PROGRESS” in the fear of the “LORD” INCREASED “CONSOLATION of the HOLY SPIRIT”

Sia, the Catholic Church is CONTINUOUSLY GROWING AND being “BUILT UP” still making “STUDY PROGRESS” in the “FEAR of the LORD”
ENJOYING the ever “INCREASING COUNSOLATION of the HOLY SPIRIT” who guides her since the begining.

Sia, Does the increased consolation of the Holy Spirit RUN DRY or does the Holy Spirit continue to TEACH his Ministers of the NEW COVENANT the Catholic Church, continuously after Our Lord RESURECTION? …Truth is the Holy Spirit continues to teach us MYSTERIES, AFTER the RESURRECTION OF JESUS It began with Peter and Paul on down through the Successor of the Apostles, through the Guidence of the Holy Spirit.

As for the word Trinity, it can be proven in the Bible I don’t doubt that , the Catholic Church don’t doubt this truth. Sia, However you pick and choose what you want to believe, regarding the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, Jesus states it more CLEARLY about his Body and Blood being His Flesh and Blood to eat, than the Word Trinity IS PROVEN and yet you don’t believe in the TRUE PRESENCE of Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist.

AS for the infallibility of Peter, Sia, if the Keys of the Kingdom of heaven which was given to St. Peter, which he has the AUTHORITY to BIND or LOOSE anything on heaven or on earth, does not tell you or show you that he and his successors have the keys of INFALLIBILITY then NOTHING WILL regarding the Catholic Church’s TEACHINGS AND DOCTORINES.

Sia, As for Virgin Mary’s Assumption, lets first go to “ELIJAH” (2 KINGS 1: 11) As they walked on conversing, a flaming chariot and a flaming horses came between them, and Elijah went up to Heaven in a whirlwind. …Sia, I can easily rest GOD’s Case here about the Virgin Mary’s ASSUMPTION:thumbsup:

However I will continue about the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. God So Loved Elijah and Called him a friend and for this took him on a Chariot to HEAVEN (THAT YOU STATE THAT THE POPES RIDE) How MUCH MORE is the Virgin Mary to Jesus! Mary, is more of a friend, she is the Mother Of Jesus Christ far, far above Elijah. Now where do you think Virgin Mary is?

Again, as for Popes riding on CHARIOTS, Elijah rode on one, so that should go to show you that God has no TROUBLES if the SUCCESSORS of Peter ride in CHARIOT:thumbsup:

As for the Vatican being rich in money, not only rich in money but RICH IN THE COUNSOLATIONS of the HOLY SPIRIT. AMEN (Ephesians 1: 18) May he enlighten your innermost vision that you may know the great hope to which he has called you, the “WEALTH” of his glorious heritage to be distributed among the MEMBERS of the CHURCH …Sia, how about not giving all your money to the Chuch should you die for hiding a part of it? (Acts 5: 1-11) There was another man however called Ananias. He and his wife, Sapphria, agreed to sell a property; but his wife’s connvienience he kept back part of the Proceeds… Sia, The fraud of ANANIAS and Sapphira, emmediately dropped dead for the LIE… Therefore the Holy Spirit wants the Catholic Church to be RICH in MONEY to DISTRIBUTE to it’s MEMBERS and then some.

Sia, truth is, everyone has a will to believe or not to believe in the Succesors of the Church.

SIA, IT IS YOU WHO BEAT AROUND THE BUSH, I HAVE ASKED YOU MANY A TIME AND YOU HAVE YET TO ANSWER ME AND THAT IS… WHY ARE YOU TRULY HERE AT THIS CATHOLIC SITE?

God Bless you on your Journey home, it is the reason why you are Here YOU HUNGER FOR TRUTH!

Ufamtobie

 

[Julianna]

really! where did you get that idea? what happened to the apostles? did they go into a happy party binge after Jesus left?

what happened to the saying of Jesus: if any man wnats to follow me let him pick up his cross daily. if cross means suffers, there you have it.

Sorry!

I think you missed her point. IMHO we are not meant to suffer our whole lives. There will be ebbs and flows…we have each other. Some Catholics take suffering to the Nth degree. Adding to that…trying to convince those who they deem “relativist”, "indifferent…or…take a snort too many of “ecumenicalism” that they aren’t suffering as much as they should be. It’s the old “sack cloth and ashes” way of thinking. Misery loves company. A perfect example are people who ask if getting a tattoo is a sin…or drinking Starbucks coffee…it goes on and on. Paranoia is not the way to Jesus. You have a brain…use it.

The apostles had a row to hoe. But they were told, speak your message…tell the people of the world…if they don’t want to listen and are hostile…pick up shoes…dust em off and move on. Actually, the apostles could have been on a “happy binge”…as they were going spread the good news all over the earth. Some may take that to “beat them over the head with it until they submit”…I don’t see that way. However in later years…it became a reality and it stuck. Until about 1955 or so.