Why do Catholics play the role of victim so much?

[Gabriel_of_12]

Not ALL Protestants believe in OSAS.

 

[Jacobus]

This is a forum for apologists. Of course there are threads about things like groups that hate us. Not all Catholics are concerned with apologetics. If this forum were about, say, spiritual direction from moral theologians, the tone of the forum would be different.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Anamchara has already pointed out the falacy of your premise so I do not need to elaborate.

I respectfully ask you to revisit my posts, there is no need for clarification from me, only those who wish too, to which I applaud their efforts. Being that the OP is in the general context, And what I stated about protestants and non-catholics to which applies, If the shoe fits wear it, if it doesn’t, then state your peace.

Never? Really? Then who was it that claimed all Protestants ascribe to OSAS? Has your account been hijacked?

I did not make that assumption you are incorrect, My dear friend anamchara unfairly dubbed me as doing so. This was not my intent. Please review the posts.

Ah, so here you lay out a feast of red herring; you give examples that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. “All she wants to do is sing and raise her children. Just leave Brittany alone!”
The behaviors you list are the admirable aspects of practicing the faith. The “self victimization” I see is demonstrated outside of the church. It is the behavior of some who revel in their “suffering” so much that they seem to seek it out and claim oppression at every turn. In this manner, they can feel that they “must be sanctified” because they “suffer so much”. In my opinion such self-serving “martyrdom” demeans the holiness of true saints.

Ah, but on the contrary, I was clarifying what Catholics practice, to the OP, so as not to confuse one’s assumption of Catholics who play the role of victim so much, With the ministry of reconciliation, to which I have no clue (what Catholic is being represented here) because of the general statement made to all Catholics of playing victim. So yes We as Catholics take on mortifications for the sake of others. I was hoping if this is what the OP is referring to of Catholics taking on sacrifices of penance and prayer for others, is a ministry to the confusing “victim role” that the OP may have experienced, when the general statement of Catholics of playing the victim is being expressed here. I am sorry if you are confused about what Catholics practice and what Catholics are being accused of here. I am just a simple Catholic hoping that the ministry doesnt get confused with secular thinking and false pretenses.

Ah, but you see: they don’t all believe the same. Why do you think there are different denominations?

**Is this is trick question?, or is this an oxymoron statement above? Protestantism: if I can generalize here, All have one thing in common, they Protest the One Holy, Catholic,Apostolic Church. Non-Catholics join the protestants seperation from the one true Church Jesus instituted, but they dont know why. I think this should summarize the oxymoron. You asked what I think.

In summary, It was not my intent to distinguish the different Protestant belief’s, only that the ministry of reconciliation that they do not subscribe too. All other protestants who may subscribe to the ministry of reconciliation please expose who you are, and lets see if your ministry is valid under the sacred sacraments of Jesus Christ, if you care too? But if the shoe does not fit, then one need not apply.

Peace be with you**

 

[wisdomseeker]

I’m a convert from a background quite like the one you’ve just described, and I can assure you, I’m not spoiling for a fight.

A few months ago, I sent a few emails to my former pastor to let him know that I appreciate all he did for my family while we were members of his church, and to get his perspective on a few theological matters I thought we had in common. He responded by telling me not to contact him again unless I was interested in converting back to his church.

Then, another friend, also a convert who attended the same church, stopped by his office to offer him a small gift. It was a book in which some of our distinctive Catholic beliefs were explained in a relatively friendly and non-confrontational manner. His response was to turn his back and walk away from her.

A Calvinist Protestant who lives in my area found me on these very forums, and singled me out for a months-long series of badgering emails in which he accused me of following doctrines of demons, and more than once implied that I was headed for hell.

Not once did I (or the friend I mentioned above) do anything to provoke the hateful actions of these individuals. And neither myself nor my friend have any “major resentment/anger issues” that we’ve yet to resolve. What we have are tons and tons of people who used to be our friends, with whom we used to share intimate Christian fellowship, who no longer consider us Christian. And our efforts to reach out to them in Christian charity have been ignored, or met with outright hostility.

So please, be careful to avoid over-generalizing with respect to those of us who used to be evangelicals and fundamentalists, and with all due respect, please refrain from the amateur psychoanalyzing when trying to determine what drives the all-too-frequent negative behaviors of a very few of fellow Catholics.

EDIT: as another small example of the kid of stuff Catholics endure around here… about a week ago, I offered to give a copy of a Catholic book to another Catholic co-worker, as I had extra left over after giving a bunch of 'em to my apologetics class. He asked me not to bring it over, since there were a bunch of guys from evangelical backgrounds waiting to pick fights with him over religion. I can’t even bring a Catholic book to a fellow Catholic around here without the threat of confrontation with non-Catholics.

:byzsoc:

 

[Strummer]

Well, none of the Protestants in my life who know of my conversion have met it kindly - and that includes the liberal Protestants, like my wife’s cousin, who’s preparing for ministry in the Episcopal Church. At a family reunion this past weekend, she gloated over a supposed stream of converts, claiming that 'it’s really easy to convert Catholic priests - and I bet I could convert tons of ‘em.’ Yeah, it ain’t just the folks you and anamchara like to characterize as nothing short of knuckle-dragging, paste-eating apes who’ve come after us for our faith. It’s the enlightened paragons of openness, tolerance and intellectualism that populate the mainstream religions anamchara likes to talk about so much.

You’re throwing some apples in with the oranges we’ve been discussing here. The glee-filled, pride of an Episcopalian “winning one for her team”, is hardly in the same league as the hate-filled behaviors you described earlier. On the one hand you have a celebration—however misguided one may believe it to be—of someone essentially winning an argument of apologetics for their side, while on the other you have extremely rude and disrespectful behavior toward someone based upon their faith. The latter is clearly anti-Catholic while the former is more pro-Espicopalian and demonstrated in counterpoint on this board time and time again by Catholics. Forgive me if I’ve missed it but how often do you remonstrate them for being “anti-Protestant” when they celebrate converts to Catholocism?

Of course it’s not indicative of the entirety of Protestantism, and you’ve read FAR more into my post than intended if that’s what you think.

This is possible. So, too, is it possible that you are avoiding responsibility for the implications inherent in your words. Having never qualified your statements (until now) and writing with such an air of self-assumed authority, you project “a knowledge” of Protestantism which you now seem to be saying is unfounded.

And I would also add that the Protestants who actually care about what they believe around here tend to be conservative evangelicals (like the church I used to attend) and extremely liberal activist Protestants - and neither of those groups are happy about Catholics, least of all converts to Catholicism.

So there may well be Protestants who don’t care about converts or Catholicism, but then they’re usually indfferentists who believe anyone can be saved anywhere without changing anything - I’m OK, you’re OK.

Hmm, you seem to be once again applying the template of your personal experience as the defining standard of the validity and/or strength of the convictions of others. While I understand the ease with which any of us could fall into that same trap, surely you can recognize the hubris of such thinking.

I’ll take knuckle-dragging, paste-eating apes with firm convictions over squishy, muddled, liberal elitism that populates mainline Protestantism any day - at least you can pin the former down on what they actually believe.

Uncomfortable with nebulous, intangible thoughts, are you? Perhaps, theology is not the discipline you should be exploring just now. And what’s with introduction of politicized terms like “conservative” and “liberal”? I’ve often seen on this board those who seem so attached to their particular politics that they then twist their theology around to fit that. I do not have sufficient evidence or knowledge of you personally to know if this is true for you in this case or not.
BTW, there’s another group with VERY firm convictions who disdain “squshy, muddled, liberal elitism” with who you have at least that much in common called “The Taliban”. Personally, I prefer deep, complex thinkers along the lines of the Jesuits.

Further, how does it border on needless detraction for me to explain my experiences?

Have you had absolutely NO positive (or rather non-negative) experiences with any Protestant ever? If your words were the only data available to education me about Protestants, I would deem them to be a rather hateful group with no redeem qualities whatsoever (Other than their commitment to their faith).

I would say that every time you accuse us of over-generalizing, you do the same. If I list every time a Protestant has accused me of not being Christian, or has said something terrible about my intellectual and spiritual state for having converted, you counter with something along the lines of, “well, it can’t be true, because that NEVER happens to me in California.” I see - so if it never happens in California, then *obviously *it can’t be happening elsewhere

OK, here you are SERIOUSLY misrepresenting my words. I never denied you had such experiences. Rather I pointed out the distinct possibility that such experiences are more common in certain geographic regions and amongst certain demographics. Pointing out that such things are rather rare in California does not in any way deny that they happen out in your neck of the woods but rather that such behaviors are not as ubiquitous as you would seem to have us believe.

Ah, I see… and I daresay, your attitude is just as elitist and offensive as anything I’ve ever heard out of a conservative Protestant’s mouth.

While I stand by may claim that such behaviors arise out of ignorance, I fully admit that “inbreeding” was a tad over the line but I liked the alliteration and the connotations, although caricatures, suited my intent. But it was more than a little tacky and I withdraw “inbreeding".

You obviously don’t know much about conservative Protestantism. Though these folks are, by and large, mistaken in the way they’ve chosen to characterize the Catholic Church, they’re deeply committed to seeing people accept and live the gospel message. Far from ignorant inbreeders, the pastors of these churches often study in serious seminaries for many years before accepting pastoral positions, including courses in Greek and Hebrew, along with pastoral counseling, homiletics and church management.

Yes, many “mega churches” in my area are pastored by college-educated men, however, the pastor at my former step-brother’s AoG church was ordained after just six months of “education in ministry”. While I still hold Mainline Protestant churches in high regard, this has made me leery of the “non-denoms”.

And the people in these churches often blow away their Catholic and liberal Protestant counterparts when it comes to the formation of community and reaching out to meet the needs of their members and those who live near them, thus exemplifying the spirit of Christian service.

OK, I had to point this out. On this particular point we are in 100% agreement.

So I suppose your ecumenical efforts won’t include any conservative Protestants, then? I mean, after you’ve poured contempt on them with your nasty insults, you think they’d want to listen to your enlightened viewpoint?

Such was not my intent at this time. However, considering how much you seem to enjoy policing your fellow Catholics who post insulting epithets about Protestants, you’ll have plenty to keep you busy on this board. Look for keywords “mirror worship”, “wishy-washy”, and “happy-clappy”.

 

[estesbob]

BTW, there’s another group with VERY firm convictions who disdain “squshy, muddled, liberal elitism” with who you have at least that much in common called “The Taliban”. Personally, I prefer deep, complex thinkers along the lines of the Jesuits.

”.

Oh My. Do you actually think that there’s any comparison whatsoever between people with firm religious convictions and the Taliban? Could you give us an example of the complex thinking of the Jesuits you admire so much? I am a product of Jesuit Education and am curious as to what you are referring to.

 

[Namesake]

SIA,

For your info. There has been scandal in the One True Church from the begining. It started with Judas (the betrayer).

Jesus said of Judas, it would of been better for him not to have ever been born.

If the crucifixion was a great gift to man then why isn’t Judas a hero or saint for facilitating that gift?

 

[Dori1]

Sounds more like martyrdom than victimhood. Suffering with purpose?

You care. It’s all over this forum how angry and frustrated you get. I have yet to see one of you stand down or concede a point. This is not so much a discussion forum as it is a support group.

marietta

Marietta, to some extent, I agree with you. I am not yet a Catholic, but plan to become one at the next Easter vigil.

I, too, have noted, with some concern, the number of threads on this forum that are inundated by angry, defensive and sometimes poorly informed posts. However, if you read carefully, they are usually in response to inflammatory remarks by someone with a grudge against Catholicism. The questions are generally not, in and of themselves, inflammatory, but are, more often than not, worded in such a way as to be offensive. Take the OP on this thread, for example. Making an accusation that Catholics play the “victims’ role” cannot, by any reasonable person, be seen as anything but an invitation to argue or be labeled “chicken.” A truly curious person, with a valid question and not simply trying to bait an argument could find a less offensive way to present it.

It is disappointing that so many catholics will rise to that when Christ clearly said we should be as wise as serpents but as gentle as doves. I have seen little gentleness or meekness of spirit on these forums. If you read carefully, though, you will find a few who speak with humble wisdom and a gentle spirit.

However, Catholics are christians following their Lord to the best of their ability. Nowhere are they described as perfect or worthy of emulation. The teachings of the church should not be confused with the behavior of the faithful. It is human nature (fallen as that may be) to become defensive when challenged in an offensive manner. Catholics are humans, just like you and I. I believe, fully, and with all my heart, the church’s teachings. But I have learned not to judge the church, or my God, by the people who represent them. That would be a foolish pursuit.

 

[Jeanette_L]

If the crucifixion was a great gift to man then why isn’t Judas a hero or saint for facilitating that gift?

The end result of Judas’ choice doesn’t negate his intentions when making that choice.

We are all given free will - the ability to choose between good and evil - and what we do with that counts immensely, whether the end results are what we had intended or not.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

However, Catholics are christians following their Lord to the best of their ability. Nowhere are they described as perfect or worthy of emulation. The teachings of the church should not be confused with the behavior of the faithful. It is human nature (fallen as that may be) to become defensive when challenged in an offensive manner. Catholics are humans, just like you and I. I believe, fully, and with all my heart, the church’s teachings. But I have learned not to judge the church, or my God, by the people who represent them. That would be a foolish pursuit

Great post Dori–and welcome! Your insight, especially where I bolded the text, is phenomenal. God bless you.

Remember, all of us–Catholic, Protestant, and non-Christian like–are in the same boat. Thank you for reminding us to make sure that we are careful to distinguish between the teachings of a church and the practices of individual members.

 

[SIA]

What is more amazing is the lengths that people go to try and attack the Church.

It is Christianity and the Judeo-Christian belief system that are attacked daily. The Catholic Church is a large target in that group.

Give me a break! The RCC goes to great lengths to insult and bash Protestants given the opportunity.

 

[MagicKirk]

Give me a break! The RCC goes to great lengths to insult and bash Protestants given the opportunity.

If I didn’t know better, I’d think that you’re playing the role of a victim with this post…

 

[onetimeposter]

Someone named Dori posted this:

• But I have learned not to judge the church, or my God, by the people who represent them. That would be a foolish pursuit.*

---

I know everyone loves to remind us all that the Church is infallible blah blah blah…

People, the Church is run 100% by people. If the people are corrupt, the Church is corrupt, because the Church on earth is made up of and controlled by people! ( I’m not saying it is…just an example)

If the people are rotten from the inside, the Church is rotten from the inside. ( I’m not saying it is…just an example)

If Enron’s leadership were corrupt, crooked, dirty and unethical…the whole company sinks!

How does the Church get special exemption from scrutiny or judgment?

If one police officer is corrupt, the police department is not broken. If every police officer is corrupt, then the entire institution is broken and would be disolved.

Stop kidding yourself, and questioning the people with the power to set the course the Church will take…it’s Ok to challenge, question and judge their decisions.

The only foolish pursuit would be to give the Church a carte blanche to do what the want. If that were the case, we would still believe the earth was flat.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You are of course aware that “The Church” never taught, as science, or to be held as dogma, that the earth was flat?

That some of the world’s greatest scientists, mathematicians, etc. were and are Catholic?

You are, of course, aware that no one has ever said “Everything the Church has DONE is 'infallible” but rather that the Pope in speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals is protected by the charism of infallibility from teaching doctrinal error on said matters. Further, the ordinary Magesterium in teaching those dogma of the Church such as the Nicene Creed etc. is likewise protected by the charism. The Church will never for example suddenly start teaching that the Trinity has now become the Dynamic Duo or the Fab four–whereas one might point that certain Protestant denominations have and continue to teach that there is no such thing as the Trinity at all.’

Please, find out what the Church actually teaches (check the Catechism) and address that, not what you erroneously think the Church teaches. Your statements above (and others) show that you really do not understand the Church’s teachings and so you are criticizing a chimera–something which does not in fact exist.

 

[onetimeposter]

You are of course aware that “The Church” never taught, as science, or to be held as dogma, that the earth was flat?

They certainly condemned a man for asserting that the earth was not the center of the universe and was in fact round.

 

[estesbob]

Tantum ergo;3945850:

You are of course aware that “The Church” never taught, as science, or to be held as dogma, that the earth was flat?

They certainly condemned a man for asserting that the earth was not the center of the universe and was in fact round.

.[90]

Galileo had advanced the same proposition 20 years before with no objections from the Church-in fact he received a major award in Rome for his work. Copernicus himself was a Catholic Priest who was encouraged in his work by the Church. As "Paul Harvey says you need to hear "the rest of the story’ Galileo was brought to trial because he deliberately mocked the Pope. The Pope gave approval for him to write a book discussing heliocentrism the only caveat being he was to present both sides of the issue. In his “Dialogues Concerning Two World systems” he presented a character “Simpliticus” who was presented as an ignorant simpleton. There was no dobt to any ne who read the book that Simpliticaus represented the Pope.

Here is a link where you can read about the trial in context-it will give you a lot better view of what happened than one will get reading out of context quotes to support erroneous conclusions.

law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileo.html

BTW-The earth being the center of the universe was never a doctrine of the Church. I know that is hard for dissenters to cope with as it is one of their favorite reasons(next to usury) for telling us why them Church can now accept et homosexual behavior or abortion or female priests, etc-:“well the Church was wrong about Galileo so they can be wrong about child killing being wrong as well”

 

[ibkc]

You are of course aware that “The Church” never taught, as science, or to be held as dogma, that the earth was flat? They certainly condemned a man for asserting that the earth was not the center of the universe and was in fact round.

Your impression of Galileo’s work is not accurate, and neither is your view of what happened with him and the Church. He was not condemned for simply advancing the scientific theory of heliocentricity, which had already existed prior to Galileo. He got into trouble for bringing his scientific arguments into the realm of theology, and for publicly mocking the Pope. Read all about it here.

 

[onetimeposter]

Your impression of Galileo’s work is not accurate, and neither is your view of what happened with him and the Church. He was not condemned for simply advancing the scientific theory of heliocentricity, which had already existed prior to Galileo. He got into trouble for bringing his scientific arguments into the realm of theology, and for publicly mocking the Pope. Read all about it here.

Mocking the Pope was illegal? Then the event was far worse than I thought…a man was put to trial by the Church for having mocked a Church authority figure!

 

[Namesake]

Mocking the Pope was illegal? Then the event was far worse than I thought…a man was put to trial by the Church for having mocked a Church authority figure!

Much worse, his life was destroyed by the power of the RCC.

 

[onetimeposter]

Much worse, his life was destroyed by the power of the RCC.

That’s my point…if the RCC didn’t do this to him, then please tell us who did this to him?

There is a direct correlation between the people within an organization and the organization itself…they are one and the same.