Why do Catholics pray to Saints........

[zerinus]

Catholics and Orthodox do not expect nor believe that there is a verse that says “thou shalt ask the Heavenly saints for intercession” (nor is that a problem for us since we do not subscribe to the false (and unbiblical itself) doctrine of sola scriptura). Instead, we believe that the Bible supports the belief that 1)the Church is the Body of Christ and includes those on earth and in Heaven; 2) people do not cease being members of the Body of Christ when they die; 3) Heavenly entities besides God are aware of the prayers of those on earth; 4) we should ask for the intercession of others. With all of this, Catholics and Orthodox see the intercession of [Heavenly] saints as not contradicting any biblical principles, and finds its basis in our views on the above scriptural matters. There have been a few links and articles given in this thread that you should read that cover our interpretation of relevant scriptural passages.

If the dead saints are aware of our condition, and want to pray for us, I suppose they can. If we wanted to pray for them, or for our own dead, I don’t see a problem with that either. But praying directly to them is problematic for me, for the reasons stated in my previous post.

 

[zerinus]

Poor Mormons, right, you guys do a pretty good job of defending yourself on the LDS perspective. I can only control what I do and say, I personally do not think it is appropriate to attack or bash another’s faith. All deserve the respect each one of us wants in return. I am to the point now that I do not get involved in these types of discussions.

I know that you and other LDS have taken the time to answer my questions here regarding your faith. I have asked for my own edification, and I feel I have been respectful and did not bash or attack if I did not agree or like the answer I got. I do not agree with your theology nor ever will. However, LDS have very different beliefs from Catholics and at times I would want to know why you believe the way you do so that I know the truth of what you believe not what others think a LDS believes. If there are some things regarding the LDS beliefs I find that I want to know, I will ask respectfully and not attack or bash. Never the less, it is your right to worship the way you choose. Peace.

Why me is not a Mormon—or at least, he is not sure!

 

[Cusader911]

If the dead saints are aware of our condition, and want to pray for us, I suppose they can. If we wanted to pray for them, or for our own dead, I don’t see a problem with that either. But praying directly to them is problematic

Why? - You never asked another Human for Help? - it is commanded in the Bible

James 5:16
Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Who is more just than a Saint in Heaven?

 

[zerinus]

That may be true. I am usually on mormon related threads keeping the extreme catholic posters honest.

This is a familiar subject which I have discussed with Catholics before; and you have a point, I am more inclined to look at a thread started by a Mormon than one by a non-Mormon.

 

[zerinus]

OK let me ask this question. The LDS in this thread seem to take issue with intercessory prayers by the Saints and the Blessed Mother because in your eyes they are dead. In the past I have asked you on another thread about your practice of baptism of the dead by proxy. You explained that yes you do that but it is up to the dead person if they want to accept that or not, or words top that effect.

I am not saying that the dead nave no consciousness, or even that they can’t be aware of our condition. They may or may not be. It is praying to them that I have an issue with, because prayer is an act of worship that should only be offered to God. See my previous post #96.

However if that person is dead, and according to your argument here, the dead cant hear or know what we are doing in the living world, …

I didn’t say they can’t, see above.

… how are they ever going to know that you did it for them in the living world and then accept in the spirit world. Seems like you want your cake and eat it too. You cant say its OK for us and then say no you are wrong it doesn’t work that way for you. I am not understanding your logic. Peace.

We believe first of all that the gospel can be preached in the spirit world; and the spirits of the dead can repent and accept it if they choose to, or not. Temple baptism for the dead is a sacrament performed by the priesthood, and by the same power in the spirit world it can be communicated to them. It is not the same thing as praying to the dead.

 

[Cusader911]

We believe first of all that the gospel can be preached in the spirit world

---

If That was the case - There would have been no need for a “Crucifixction”

 

[rinnie]

By the dead I meant people who have passed on to the next life, with whom we cannot have direct communication, as we can do with the living.

How do you know? Have you ever been dead. What about in the OT when Jesus went on the mountain to pray. Was Abraham not there?

You must understand we do not believe they we can contact the dead in the Catholic faith. But God can used our loved ones to contact us if he wants. Usually its in a dream. God can do anything he wants and use them any way he wants actually.

Just because we cannot see someone does not mean we cannot still be connected spiritually. For goodness sakes look at God we cannot see him but we care quite connected to him.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I am not saying that the dead nave no consciousness, or even that they can’t be aware of our condition. They may or may not be. It is praying to them that I have an issue with, [SIGN]because prayer is an act of worship that should only be offered to God. See my previous post #96.]

I didn’t say they can’t, see above.

We believe first of all that the gospel can be preached in the spirit world; and the spirits of the dead can repent and accept it if they choose to, or not. Temple baptism for the dead is a sacrament performed by the priesthood, and by the same power in the spirit world it can be communicated to them. It is not the same thing as praying to the dead.

I agree and this is also Catholic teaching. We we ask the Saints to pray for us, GET IT PRAY FOR US. who do you think they are praying to then?

 

[rinnie]

Now you want scriptture of prauing to the Saints!!!

You want it! You Got It!!!

Mark 12:26-27 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead but of the living.

Heb 12:1 Therefrore since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses let us lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely.

And my all time favorite that sums it up in the nutshell:
Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell before the lamb, each holding a harp and with golden bowls full of incense, WHICH ARE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS!

Now explain this story to me. My brother was dead about 2 years. I never dreamed of him since his death. One night he came to me in a dream. I had so many questions to ask him, he said listen to me How is Mother, I said fine, he said again how is Mother I am worried about her. I said I know since you died she is taking it so hard. He said again I am worried about Mother. I said me too Next minute he said NO you are not listening to me, she is in trouble. She needs help. Call Mother!

So I called her it was 7:30 in the morning. She was talking funny, slurring her words. I said mom whats wrong? (she lived in anoher state) She said I don’t know I do not feel good. I said where is Daddy, she said Church. Church was like 2 min. from her house. I said go get him and go to the Dr. I cannot explain but something is wrong. She said I think I better. By the time she hit the Church he looked at her and said you are going to he hospital. She got there and was within one minute of a stroke. He BP was off the charts.

She called me and said I would have never gone to the hospital if you would not have called me!!

Now is that a work of God, or what. How can that not be God using my Brother to help my Mother and save her. That my friend is proof that there is no such thing as death, and God can use our loved one to communicate with us.

But we cannot go and try to communicate with our loved ones who have passed on the other side, only God can do it.

That story I told you is the honest truth so help me God!

 

[rinnie]

By the way that scripture in Rev. In case you do not know when the Saints are taking our prayers before the Lamb this is indeed the Lamb of God.!! I am not sure if you know that in our faith the lamb is indeed God.

That should be proof enough in scripture that it is indeed encouraged in the bible to ask for prayers from the saints and that they indeed take them straight to God.

 

[TheosisM]

I think that we need to remember that there are no direct statements made in the Bible that someone prayed “to” (asked for the intercession) of a “dead” saint. Proof texts given as evidence of prayer to saints actually do not show this, but instead show the angels/saints offering our prayers to God, and the angels/saints interceding (offering the faithful’s prayers to God) when prayers were offered to God in the first place. None of the verses given show someone actually asking for a Heavenly saint to pray for them. At most, these verses show that the angels/saints may be aware of our prayers, but not that someone had prayed to/with them in the first place.

Keeping the situation in perspective

 

[TheosisM]

By the way that scripture in Rev. In case you do not know when the Saints are taking our prayers before the Lamb this is indeed the Lamb of God.!! I am not sure if you know that in our faith the lamb is indeed God.

That should be proof enough in scripture that it is indeed encouraged in the bible to ask for prayers from the saints and that they indeed take them straight to God.

I think we need to remember that in Catholicism, not everything needs to be in the Bible for it to be true, so we shouldn’t try to force things in there. Saying that Rev 5:8 is scriptural evidence of prayer to saints is pushing it a little. Rev 5:8 shows that the angels/saints are aware of our prayers and are offering them to God, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they were prayed to/with in the first place. I forgot which verse, but someone mentioned a verse in Tobit where Tobit and Sarah prayed to God, and Raphael interceded by taking their prayers to God. It wasn’t that they asked Raphael for his prayers in the first place.

So, like I said in my post to zerinus, there simply is no verse in the Bible that says “you should pray to Heavenly saints”, or shows an example of someone asking for the prayer of Heavenly saints. But that’s okay in Catholicism.

I also think we should consider Rebecca J’s post that had references to the Psalms, which perhaps is a more explicit example than others of addressing Heavenly entities besides God.

 

[Cusader911]

I think we need to remember that in Catholicism, not everything needs to be in the Bible for it to be true, so we shouldn’t try to force things in there. Saying that Rev 5:8 is scriptural evidence of prayer to saints is pushing it a little. Rev 5:8 shows that the angels/saints are aware of our prayers and are offering them to God, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they were prayed to/with in the first place. I forgot which verse, but someone mentioned a verse in Tobit where Tobit and Sarah prayed to God, and Raphael interceded by taking their prayers to God. It wasn’t that they asked Raphael for his prayers in the first place.

So, like I said in my post to zerinus, there simply is no verse in the Bible that says “you should pray to Heavenly saints”, or shows an example of someone asking for the prayer of Heavenly saints. But that’s okay in Catholicism.

I also think we should consider Rebecca J’s post that had references to the Psalms, which perhaps is a more explicit example than others of addressing Heavenly entities besides God.

What did John say?
John 20:30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.

 

[rinnie]

If the dead saints are aware of our condition, and want to pray for us, I suppose they can. If we wanted to pray for them, or for our own dead, I don’t see a problem with that either. But praying directly to them is problematic for me, for the reasons stated in my previous post.

Praying to them instead of God would be provblematic for us also. What would be the purpose they cannot overpower the will of God. But they can pray for us to receive Grace and Grace is what turns us all into Saints also. If their prayers are worthless then prayer in itself is worthless also.

Unless you are saying we can pray but only for ourself? Which would be quite selfish, and also contradict scripture. For Jesus prayed for Peter!

Now what seems problematic to me is why would we pray for the saints? What would we that do? They are already perfected in Christ and are in the kingdom of heaven. There is no higher to go. It is because they are perfected in Christ and with him in heaven that we pray and ask them to pray for us because they are right there with God.

 

[rinnie]

What did John say?
John 20:30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.

Also stick to the teachings of the early Fathers of the Church. Either by SS or by Tradition (word of mouth)

 

[TheosisM]

What did John say?
John 20:30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.

Yes, which is why I don’t think Catholics need to “force” certain things into scripture, when Catholics are not sola scriptura, as I mentioned earlier. Most of the verses given do not really talk about someone asking angels/saints to pray for them, but show them having some sort of intermediary role by offering our prayers to God, sometimes when the person praying prayed to God, and not the angel/saint (Raphael, for example). But that’s okay in Catholicism.

 

[rinnie]

I think we need to remember that in Catholicism, not everything needs to be in the Bible for it to be true, so we shouldn’t try to force things in there. Saying that Rev 5:8 is scriptural evidence of prayer to saints is pushing it a little. Rev 5:8 shows that the angels/saints are aware of our prayers and are offering them to God, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they were prayed to/with in the first place. I forgot which verse, but someone mentioned a verse in Tobit where Tobit and Sarah prayed to God, and Raphael interceded by taking their prayers to God. It wasn’t that they asked Raphael for his prayers in the first place.

So, like I said in my post to zerinus, there simply is no verse in the Bible that says “you should pray to Heavenly saints”, or shows an example of someone asking for the prayer of Heavenly saints. But that’s okay in Catholicism.

I also think we should consider Rebecca J’s post that had references to the Psalms, which perhaps is a more explicit example than others of addressing Heavenly entities besides God.

I am going to have to disagree with you on that one.

CCC 2634 Intercession is a prayer or petition which leads us to PRAY AS JESUS DID. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men especially sinners. He is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him since he always lives to make intercession for them. The Holy Spirit HIMSELF intercedes for us and INTERCEDES FOR THE SAINTS according to the will of GOD.

So right there proves according to Catholic teachings the Saints do intercedes for us by the Power of the Holy Spirit!

 

[rinnie]

Yes, which is why I don’t think Catholics need to “force” certain things into scripture, when Catholics are not sola scriptura, as I mentioned earlier. Most of the verses given do not really talk about someone asking angels/saints to pray for them, but show them having some sort of intermediary role by offering our prayers to God, sometimes when the person praying prayed to God, and not the angel/saint (Raphael, for example). But that’s okay in Catholicism.

Please do not get me wrong, I agree in our faith we do not go only by SS we go by Traditon also. But in this case it was written in SS. Thats my only point:thumbsup:

 

[TheosisM]

I am going to have to disagree with you on that one.

CCC 2634 Intercession is a prayer or petition which leads us to PRAY AS JESUS DID. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men especially sinners. He is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him since he always lives to make intercession for them. The Holy Spirit HIMSELF intercedes for us and INTERCEDES FOR THE SAINTS according to the will of GOD.

So right there proves according to Catholic teachings the Saints do intercedes for us by the Power of the Holy Spirit!

Right, but there is no explicit example in scripture of someone asking a Heavenly saint to pray for them. The closest one gets are the Psalms excerpts posted by Rebecca J.

 

[Cusader911]

Right, but there is no explicit example in scripture of someone asking a Heavenly saint to pray for them. The closest one gets are the Psalms excerpts posted by Rebecca J.

Rebecca was not here

24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.