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JustaServant
Guest
You have no way of knowing that. If you are suspicious, contact the moderator. Otherwise, stop trying to play Sherlock and just answer the questions him/her is asking.
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J
JustaServant
Guest
I also posted this on another thread seven years ago:
In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’. Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit. Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us. They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth. Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet.God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.
In the modern world, when somebody dies, its as if they cease to exist. They are spoken of in the past tense, they were alive once, but now they are dead, gone, they cease to exist. We print their obituaries in the newspaper, show old pictures or film of them and talk about OUR memories.
In the ancient world, and in many parts of the world today, this is unknown. To the Hebrews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were just not some names in history, they were part of a Covenant that transcended time itself.
God called Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not of the dead. Hebrew ancestors were NEVER spoken of as some forgotten point of history, but as a LIVING part of the Covenant.
In the early church, this thinking never changed.
When a Christian died in the Early Church, they ‘fell asleep’. They were never spoken of as just ‘dead’. Hebrews 12:1 says “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,”
Those who have gone on before us are more alive than ever! We have the hope of the resurrection, so our EXPECTATION is that we will see them again. The Church is more than we can physically see.
Since we are all one Body of Christ, we are connected to each other by the Holy Spirit. Our deceased loved ones do not cease being part of the church just because they have gone on before us. They are STILL part of the Church and remain ‘on the church membership rolls’. We join hands with them spiritually as part of the mystical Body of Christ.
If the Saints are those who share in eternal life in Christ and full communion with God, then the Saints are living in a much more real way than those left on the earth. Catholics believe in a SPIRITUAL church, not just a physical one.
The saints are still alive in Christ and part of our worship.
Revelation shows the saints in heaven bring before the Lamb the prayers of the saints on earth. They are concerned over what is happening on this planet.God told us to ask others to intercede for us. Consider, only the righteous are in heaven. And Scripture says that prayers of the righteous are efficacious.
Revelation tells us of those who have overcome are ruling and reigning with Christ. He shares His power and glory with His Saints, and they reign as kings and priests, offering up prayers and petitions on our behalf.
J
JustaServant
Guest
God’s Word commands us to pray for one another:
1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:
**Rom. 8:38-39 **“Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Is not the Church the Body of Christ?
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
**Mt 18:10 **"See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.
Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."
2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
Part of understanding the Communion of Saints, is that we ask for those living and dead to intercede or carry our prayers to Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:
**Rom. 8:38-39 **“Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Is not the Church the Body of Christ?
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
**Mt 18:10 **"See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.
Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."
2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
Part of understanding the Communion of Saints, is that we ask for those living and dead to intercede or carry our prayers to Jesus.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Consulting or praying to the dead is forbidden in the Catholic Church.
We pray for their release from purgatory. And we ask their prayers for us…and we offer the Mass for them to expiate their suffering and purgation.
We pray for their release from purgatory. And we ask their prayers for us…and we offer the Mass for them to expiate their suffering and purgation.
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Memaw
Guest
To the Catholic Church, praying is NOT worship. And yes we do “pray” to the saints and the Blessed Mother. Nothing wrong with that. Lets don’t play “politically correct” with Church teaching. We DO know the difference, even if others don’t. If you mean consulting like in a seance, then that’s a different story. That is forbidden. God Bless, Memaw
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KathleenGee
Guest
Memaw…yes…it is hard to understanding being as Church and not bible alone.
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Techno2000
Guest
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
2 Machabees 12;46
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Memaw
Guest
I didn’t say that, I said, “the part he left out” check your history. God Bless, Memaw
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BlueKnight
Guest
I believe Martin Luther did not believe in purgatory so he took the book of Maccabees out of the Protestant bible because in it it is clearly depicted that the Jews prayed for their dead.
Tradition teaches that the Catholic Church is three churches. The church militant on earth, the church in waiting in purgatory, and the church triumphant in heaven.
Protestants have the added challenge of missing seven books that we have in he catholic bible.
I believe Padre Pio said that there are more Protestants in purgatory then Catholics because the Protestant families do not make sacrifices or pray for their dead. It is interesting to note that he also said people who do not believe in hell will find out about it when they get there.
Praying to the dead is forbidden because god is a jealous god and he wishes for us to seek him for our answers and help, not lesser spirits. In the bible the story of king Saul having the witch of endor call up Samuel is an interesting example of a holy soul forced to answer the call because he existed before Christ’s victory and Satan had the keys of hell and death at that time, so Samuel was compelled to answer by the victor of human afterlife. When Christ died for us he went to hell to take the keys and free the prisoners. I imagine Abraham’s bosom no longer exists, know we have purgatory.
Praying for souls in purgatory is very powerful because they then pray for us in heaven where their prayers are very efficacious.
Demons can mimic or take the appearance of dead family members but are actually demons. This can be an entry for curses and problems for those seeking answers from dead relatives. These types of demons are called familiar spirits.
Tradition teaches that the Catholic Church is three churches. The church militant on earth, the church in waiting in purgatory, and the church triumphant in heaven.
Protestants have the added challenge of missing seven books that we have in he catholic bible.
I believe Padre Pio said that there are more Protestants in purgatory then Catholics because the Protestant families do not make sacrifices or pray for their dead. It is interesting to note that he also said people who do not believe in hell will find out about it when they get there.
Praying to the dead is forbidden because god is a jealous god and he wishes for us to seek him for our answers and help, not lesser spirits. In the bible the story of king Saul having the witch of endor call up Samuel is an interesting example of a holy soul forced to answer the call because he existed before Christ’s victory and Satan had the keys of hell and death at that time, so Samuel was compelled to answer by the victor of human afterlife. When Christ died for us he went to hell to take the keys and free the prisoners. I imagine Abraham’s bosom no longer exists, know we have purgatory.
Praying for souls in purgatory is very powerful because they then pray for us in heaven where their prayers are very efficacious.
Demons can mimic or take the appearance of dead family members but are actually demons. This can be an entry for curses and problems for those seeking answers from dead relatives. These types of demons are called familiar spirits.
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Memaw
Guest
The Catholic Church is NOT 3 Churches , but it’s members are in different places. each a part of the Church. As for “praying to saints” it is NOT forbidden or how do you explain the miracles needed to Canonize a saint. Many answers to prayers have been granted thru praying to Saints. Their intersession is very powerful. God grants them many miracles. Don’t confuse this with what Samuel was trying to do. Conjuring up a witch, or anyone else for that matter, is forbidden and a very serious sin. One needs to clearly understand the difference. God Bless, Memaw
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BlueKnight
Guest
Exactly my point Meemaw. Thank you for clarifying.
Samuel was at rest in Abraham’s bosom and he was not happy at being disturbed, especially considering the Jewish ban on witchcraft and necromancy (speaking to the dead).
It goes to show how Saul went from bad to worse, committing the very sins his government used to prevent and stop. So then we see that seeking answers from the spirits or communing with the dead is fraught with problems.
Whereas an evil spirit will be happy for the chance to deceive you.
The prohibition of contacting spirits is protective. It prevents being led astray. Since before man was created 1/3 of the angels fell and those evil angels have been killing, steeling, and destroying from man from the beginning. If all spirits were holy there would likely be no prohibition to communing with them or the need for discernment.
Since evil spirits are pure intellect and are thousands of years old, they are strong adversaries. Satan himself declares his desire to destroy the holy Roman Catholic church.
Weak believers, the curious, and the vain often seek a thrill or hidden knowledge. Advanced believers know to seek what is best and most beautiful, in this case our Lord Jesus Christ.
Samuel was at rest in Abraham’s bosom and he was not happy at being disturbed, especially considering the Jewish ban on witchcraft and necromancy (speaking to the dead).
It goes to show how Saul went from bad to worse, committing the very sins his government used to prevent and stop. So then we see that seeking answers from the spirits or communing with the dead is fraught with problems.
Whereas an evil spirit will be happy for the chance to deceive you.
The prohibition of contacting spirits is protective. It prevents being led astray. Since before man was created 1/3 of the angels fell and those evil angels have been killing, steeling, and destroying from man from the beginning. If all spirits were holy there would likely be no prohibition to communing with them or the need for discernment.
Since evil spirits are pure intellect and are thousands of years old, they are strong adversaries. Satan himself declares his desire to destroy the holy Roman Catholic church.
Weak believers, the curious, and the vain often seek a thrill or hidden knowledge. Advanced believers know to seek what is best and most beautiful, in this case our Lord Jesus Christ.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Perhaps we need clearer elaboration on the question. What do you mean by Catholics praying to the dead? Why isn’t that allowed? Maybe you just address that first before we even go into Biblical proof and support for that idea. Or never mind, you can do both.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Jesus teaches from the Old Testament:
“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)
Of course not. Everybody knows it’s 23.
(I’m going to run away now to avoid the glass being thrown my way.
)
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BlueKnight
Guest
Nice post Randy. Porthos now you done it. Meemaw is going to tail gate your posts now to prevent other good christians from falling into heresy! 23! Everyone knows it is really 32!
Just kidding Meemaw.
.
Bk
Just kidding Meemaw.
.Bk
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Memaw
Guest
Not glass, but prayers. Jesus Christ founded ONE Church, Never did HE use the word Churches. One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. There is only ONE teaching authority protected from error by the Holy Spirit in the Church that Jesus founded. This Church has 21 Rites, but they are NOT separate Churches. All 21 Rites believe the same Truths, have the same Sacraments etc. and are under the Authority of the POPE. I’m sure you guys are just kidding but just trying to avoid confusion to those that don’t understand this. God Bless, MemawOf course not. Everybody knows it’s 23.
(I’m going to run away now to avoid the glass being thrown my way.
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IGotQuestions
Guest
Thank you for your answers. I’m sorry I have not been able to respond in a timely manner.
Many great responses, it clears up many questions.
Many great responses, it clears up many questions.
We need to be clear. There are 23 churches, not rites. Within the 22 Eastern churches, there are only five families of rites: Alexandrian, Antiochene/West Syriac, Byzantine, Chaldean/East Syriac and Armenian).
There is nothing scandalous about this: the Catholic Church is actually a federation of 23 self-governing churches, technically called churches sui iuiris. The faithful are members of churches, not rites.
ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm
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steido01
Guest
Just pointing out that Luther’s belief/unbelief in the physical place of Purgatory had absolutely zero bearing on which books he included in his translation of Die Bibel. For what it’s worth, Luther’s Bibel was actually one book bigger than today’s modern Roman Catholic Bibles (he included the Prayer of Manasseh).
In fact, it’s the other way around. Luther did not consider Maccabees to be proper Scripture because, unlike the Gospels and the Epistles, it was disputed in the early church. If Luther and the early church were correct in holding Maccabees to be of a lesser authority than the four Gospels and the Epistles, then doctrine (like Purgatory, for example) could not be made only from those lesser books. Without direct support from the Gospels or Epistles, it could be pious belief, but not binding doctrine.
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Elizium23
Guest
Actually, there are 24 Churches. The Eritrean Catholic Church was erected in January of this year.
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