We don’t know what impact our prayers have on God’s decisions. We pray relying on His mercy and grace.
Jon
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Jon
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MarcoPG
Guest
I don’t understand how this answers my question.
Do you mean that the people who are now in Hell may come into Heaven? This is a very problematic view.
It’s a problematic view that I didn’t express.
Do Catholics apply prayers for those in Hell?
First, we don’t know who is in Hell. So Catholics and Lutherans probably do, unwittingly.
Second, Lutherans and Catholics agree that we can pray for universal salvation, even though we acknowledge the existence of Hell, and that souls will end up there.
Jon
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MarcoPG
Guest
I asked if you thought that way, not more. Anyway, we dont need to know who is in hell to understand that prayers for them are uneffective. Catholics may pray for them, but if they do, they have incomplete understanding of the reality of Hell. That we pray for universal salvation means that we know that everyone CAN be saved. Then, it is the person’s free will that decides where he/she’ll go.
But this is not really what I asked. Do you believe that the people in Hell can come out of it, so to speak? Because if you don’t for which deads would you be praying, since there is no purgatory and the Saints in Heaven do not need prayers for their souls because they are perfectly happy in God?
So if you say that you pray for the dead in a general way, with faith in God, what are you praying for? If you say univesal salvation ok, but what about judgement right after death?
No. I pray for the salvation of those who have passed. You seem to be looking for a difference where one does not exist. Again, we recognize judgement - and cleansing of those saved - at the moment of death. And we pray for God’s mercy and grace for those who have passed.
Jon
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MarcoPG
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This is Purgatory.
But even with this in mind, why do you make no difference between the deads? Their fate may be totally different; one in Heaven, one in Hell.
Can you explain us what God’s grace does to a soul in Heaven or in Hell through prayer? Since it is te two final realities, what reasons do you have to think one may pray God after one has passed and therefore is already in one of these final states?
Certainly Catholics call it Purgatory. I take it you have no issue with Catholics that see it a momentary encounter with Christ’s healing love.
No, I can’t explain it, other than to say that it is by grace that those who enter Heaven are there, and that grace was available for those who do not. And since I cannot know which realm people enter, I pray for them nonetheless.
Jon
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MarcoPG
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Yes, and I have no problem comparing it to the encounter with the Lord’s burning love, as Pope Benedict refers to it in this way when talking about the opinion of some theologians in Spe salvi.
I am not saying that since you don’t know, youd better not pray. I was asking about your opinion on the effectiveness of prayer when the dead are dead, since as it is said, we we are dead, our time is over. We don’t need to know which relam people enter, to know that they may enter any of them and prayer for the dead would not be effective once they are there. But I see your point. Thank you
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Peter_J
Guest
I think the best response is what (name removed by moderator) said:
Like I’ve said before, the Catholic Church is not a website.
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JustaServant
Guest
In fairness Jharek posted that back in July.
While true, the CC is not a website, it does make certain questions on the faith easier. Having once attended IFB churches myself, I can tell you the question are legitimate.
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CatholicKnight3
Guest
Matthew 27:52
and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
Revelation 5:8
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the Saints.
Remember the Lords prayer? Thy Kingdom come, Thy WILL BE DONE…ON EARTH as it is in HEAVEN.Look around and ask yourself which Church fulfills this. Look at all of the book of Revelation and you will see how it is being fulfilled the Catholic Church. Incense before the alter. The woman that earth protects that had given birth to the Lord and the devil went off to wage war with the REST OF HER OFFSPRING. All those who bear witness to Christ and keep His commandments.
Revelation 12:17
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
Combine that verse with what Christ says from the cross…
John 19:25-27
25 ¶Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
Are to we believe that only most things were for an eternal purpose as recorded by the gospels? We are to believe that one of the last things spoken from the CROSS as the LORD IS DYING was NOT for an eternal purpose???
Notice too, after the Lord gave us HIS MOTHER and asked us to behold OUR MOTHER, that he looked around and aw that ALL WAS FINISHED.
John 19:28
28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
All was finished AFTER HE said BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER. Is it really something that was temporal? It was just a simple empty proclamation? Remember, please couple that with what Revelation 12:17 says. THE REST OF HER OFFSPRING. ALL OF THOSE WHO BEAR WITNESS. Now couple that with the ONLY DISCIPLE of the 12 that was at the FOOT OF THE CROSS bearing WITNESS.
Now, when Christ cries out I THIRST, was HE claiming he THIRSTED for temporary satisfaction of water? Or, was HE crying out that HE thirsts for souls?
Think about it and consider the eternal implications. Our eternal souls was HIS ENTIRE MISSION.
Any other claims of those claims being temporal or that He really did not mean all of that, is empty with ZERO glory.
Keep on saying His prayer. On earth as it is in heaven…
Which church is fulfilling this?
BTW, by us asking the Saints to pray for us is our affirmation that we believe Christs promise that those who die in Him are alive. So, by claiming that those who do die in Him are “dead” is actually calling Christ a liar.
So, my question that I have for protestants that ask this is this…
Who is praying to dead people?
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St_Pancake
Guest
Do either of you know what is the name of this website? If you don’t want to answer, don’t but please stop trying to stop someone from inquiring here since it is the entire point of the website.
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Peter_J
Guest
True … all the more reason to remind everyone of his wisdom.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the Internet has no usefulness. It’s just that past experience shows that many people confuse the Catholic Church with catholic.com.
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BlueCat
Guest
The general idea is to pray for the dead not to the dead. For example, we offer prayers to Jesus for them or ask Mary to intercede for them so that their suffering will be relieved. We also believe that the souls in Purgatory will return the favor and pray for us. So it’s a win-win situation; we relieve their suffering and they give back with their prayers.
J
Joe55
Guest
Thanks for this thread. I have a similar issue with a very good Protestant friend.
Could someone cite the exact verses in the scripture where it is forbidden to ask the dead (we Catholics believe their souls are alive in heaven) to pray for us.
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clem456
Guest
Because Jesus Christ lives and so do the deceased. (although you could make the case that those in hell are indeed “dead”)
You ever been to a travelogue where someone shows great pictures of their trip to Tibet or some such fantastic place?
Why would I not communicate with those who live more fully than I can imagine?
I am stuck here in my body with my stupid brain. I’d like to talk to those who are closer to God, or can even behold his face. I wanna hear about, think about it, ask about it.
I pray to the living.
You ever been to a travelogue where someone shows great pictures of their trip to Tibet or some such fantastic place?
Why would I not communicate with those who live more fully than I can imagine?
I am stuck here in my body with my stupid brain. I’d like to talk to those who are closer to God, or can even behold his face. I wanna hear about, think about it, ask about it.
I pray to the living.
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maryjk
Guest
I’ve been reading a bunch of your threads.
And I have to ask.
Is it you that has questions? Or is it your homework?
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clem456
Guest
I don’t give a moments worry whether I am praying to someone who is objectively in hell. Cause, well, how would I know who is in hell and who is not? And so any discussion about it is pointless speculation. Which is sometimes fun, but more often than not leads to pointless speculative arguments. 
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MarcoPG
Guest
The point is not to know where they are, it is that without Purgatory, it doesn’t matter where they are: in both cases, they do not need our prayers.I don’t give a moments worry whether I am praying to someone who is objectively in hell. Cause, well, how would I know who is in hell and who is not? And so any discussion about it is pointless speculation. Which is sometimes fun, but more often than not leads to pointless speculative arguments.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Pro-Purgatory from a Methodist member, Anglican worshipping, Baptist-seminary professor - Dr. Jerry Walls:
www.firstthings.com
afkimel.wordpress.com
Purgatory for Everyone | Jerry L. Walls
A few years ago, the journalist Philip Nobile wrote an article near the first anniversary of the . . . .
www.firstthings.com
Jerry Walls: Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory
Few contemporary philosophers have thought as deeply, nor written as clearly, about the Last Things as Jerry Walls. In 1992 he published his doctoral dissertation Hell: The Logic of Damnation. Ten …
afkimel.wordpress.com
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