Why do Catholics Worship Saints?

[Brendan]

I don’t really like playing devil’s advocate, but I can’t think of any other way to illustrate what I want to say here.

Let’s take sort of an extreme example. Let’s say I have a statue of buddha in my home and every morning and evening I kneel down before it and say “Buddha, I love you, I honor you, I venerate you, holy Buddha”.

It is certainly IS possible for someone to Love, Honor and Venerate Buddah.

We, as Christians all called to Love everyone, so Love is mandatory.

One can honor (mertited respect) Buddah for bringing an historically moderating influence to the violence of East Asia.

Veneration, as I mentioned above, is the process for bestowing Honor or Love.

When someone points out that perhaps I’m in danger of violating the first commandment, I say 'Oh no, I’m just venerating, not worshipping. Buddha isn’t my god, he is just a person I love and honor.

The danger would be in if you consider Buddah to be a Diety. The correct response to the person who pointed out supposed danger is:

“There is Only one God, Buddah is just a man, my worship goes to God alone”

That’s all that needs to be said.

According to the definitions we’re using, that wouldn’t be worshipping a false god, because I do not consider Buddha to be god. Actually I don’t think real buddhists consider Buddha to be god. So would this scenario present a problem?

No.

If the person continued to have an issue with that, the problem would be at their end. They would have an erroneous understanding of the differences between Honor, Veneration and Worship.

The correct response would be to ask them if they Honor their parents ( Ex 20:12 again). If they do, and keep photos of them, ask them to justifiy why they are actually worshiping their parents by keeping photos of them and rendering them Honor.

 

[RobHom]

Worship is defined as what you to do a God, while veneration is what you do to a saint or angel.

God is defined as a being worthy of worship.

That’s circular!

No its not.

When I go to Mass, I worship GOD!! Thats it, period!! When I look at a statue of a Saint, or the Blessed Virgin Mary, I do not see GOD, I see a statue, which causes me to think of the life and the “example” of a holy person who dedicated their entire life and being to serving GOD and GOD alone. This causes me to reflect on my own life and want to be more like that person so that I can be worthy of GOD and heaven. There is nothing worshipful about it. I merely respect the MEMORY of that person.

If I show respect, or even meet the definition of the word “venerate” a contemporary hero such as a military hero, or a fireman or police officer…and hold them up as an example to be emulated or as a role model…am I “worshipping” them? NO!

There is a MASSIVE DIFFIERENCE between worshipping GOD and veneration of a Saint. Get a firm grip on it. Even “Webster” grasped the difference.

I’ve heard so many sermons saying that I have turned my TV into an idol my worshipping it as a false god. I certainly had no intention of that. And if a TV can be a god to me, why can’t a saint?

Then it appears that you are listening to a false teacher… But then again, maybe its possible…if you allow it to happen. Maybe the same could be true about a car you own or money…but then that would point to you possessing an aberrant psychological problem.

This is not the case with Catholics. We know the difference between GOD and the Saints, as well as the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Its all the others that need to get a grip on that.

If the best distinction between worship and venerate is that one applies to a divine being and the other doesn’t, we need a better definition of what makes one being divine and the next not divine.

No, because the distinction is very clear. VERY CLEAR! It is merely the inability of some people to come to terms with a simple concept and accept it. It is rooted in the fact that they were subjected to FALSE TEACHINGS and LIES and they swallowed them whole, just as Communists swallow false propaganda. In fact thats what false teachings are in this issue: FALSE PROPAGANDA! Thats all. Or are these people incapable of understanding definitions of words in a “dictionary”, or are they trying to re-write it to suit their twisted agendas?

In a lot of religions their gods are less spectacular than Mary or the saints. The pharoahs were gods. Those rats in that temple in india are gods. My TV can even be a god, without me even realizing it.

And they were “false gods”, and so would your TV be…and if you failed to realize that your TV has become a god to you…then there is a serious problem at foot. And you need to either shoot your TV or throw it away…

 

[RobHom]

Wow, I’m just a good catholic with some questions, this is getting a bit nasty. I personally ask Mary and the saints to pray for me all the time, but I wouldn’t normally kneel down in front of their statues, I just find that feels too much like worship. I’m hardly a venomous heretic, just careful about crossing the line.

Then that being the case… please accept my sincerest apologies for seeming or appearing “harsh” or “nasty”… I just get so tired of some people trying to push the “worshiping” The Blessed Virgin Mary or the Saints nonsense…

Please consider that the post was “generically” intended…and not one that was aimed directly at you. I also hope that I have been able to give you some insight as to how not to “cross the line” as it were…

Neil… I owe you another “sincere apology”… I got you confused with someone else. For that I am sorry, and do sincerely apologize and am going to edit that post!! Peace Brother!!

 

[andzy]

I’ve heard so many sermons saying that I have turned my TV into an idol my worshipping it as a false god. I certainly had no intention of that. And if a TV can be a god to me, why can’t a saint?

Yes, a saint can possible become a god to somebody. However, we don’t say that driving a car is evil and don’t forbid it just because somebody drives recklessly and endangering others. Instead, we try to educate the person into a more appropriate driving.

I personally ask Mary and the saints to pray for me all the time, but I wouldn’t normally kneel down in front of their statues

And you’re right to not do that. The Church doesn’t force you to. But just because you don’t feel comfortable about it, you don’t look down and don’t judge those who do it, do you? (Unfortunately, many Protestants act this way…)

 

[RobHom]

Neil, it appears the site has a time limit of 20 minutes on “editing” a post… But rest assured, my pointedness was not aimed at you. The party it was aimed at knows who they are.

I grew up in Central Florida, and have heard the same nonsense from those people for the past 50+ years. Its nothing new. And they still refuse to believe whats in the very bible they say they believe in and quote from constantly… Go figure?

Peace Brother!!

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Yes, a saint can possible become a god to somebody. However, we don’t say that driving a car is evil and don’t forbid it just because somebody drives recklessly and endangering others. Instead, we try to educate the person into a more appropriate driving.

And you’re right to not do that. The Church doesn’t force you to. But just because you don’t feel comfortable about it, you don’t look down and don’t judge those who do it, do you? (Unfortunately, many Protestants act this way…)

No, I don’t judge others who do that. I just sincerely want to be able to explain to protestants what the difference is. I know in my own head where the line is between venerating a saint and worshipping them as a false god, for me, but I don’t know how to put it objectively to explain it to a protestant.

As a cradle catholic I was never exposed to protestant arguments about the saints, and just by listening carefully to the scripture readings at church on sundays and reading on my own I saw what appeared to be a contradiction between the first commandment and how we venerate saints. I eventually got over that after a lot of reading and praying, but I understand where the protestants are coming from, and I think they are sincere.

I know the definition of God in Christianity, but what is the broader definition of god that false gods fall under? What is the litmus test to determine whether someone kneeling at a statue has crossed the line and turned the saint into a false god?

 

[Brendan]

Worship is defined as what you to do a God, while veneration is what you do to a saint or angel.

God is defined as a being worthy of worship.

No one here has ever said that the definition of God is “a being worthy of worship”

God’s worthness of worship is an attribute of God, not the defintion of God.

Attributes DESCRIBE something, they don’t DEFINE it.

So there is no circular logic.

 

[VociMike]

I know the definition of God in Christianity, but what is the broader definition of god that false gods fall under? What is the litmus test to determine whether someone kneeling at a statue has crossed the line and turned the saint into a false god?

Read the scripture again about how no man can serve two masters. Anything that you “serve” in conflict with God has become a false god to you. Anything that you “serve” (e.g. your family) which is not in conflict with God is not a false god. Again, it is nothing to do with posture, it is to do with the concept of serving (that is, following, allowing to control, etc).

 

[Brendan]

I know the definition of God in Christianity, but what is the broader definition of god that false gods fall under?

Here is Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: 1god
Pronunciation: 'gäd also 'god
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality3 : a person or thing of supreme value
4 : a powerful ruler

False Gods would fall under #2, and note the specification " one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality"

Catholics know that God, being Omnipotent, controls all Reality.

No Angel or Saint can act against the Will of God. They may be agents of God, and act in His Name, but they do not not control Reality, God does.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;2638574]This quote was moved from another thread where it was off topic.

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=2637400#post2637400

Interestingly, the OP was wondering why Protestants presume to know what Catholics believe, when they don’t.

Whats so hard about knowing wha tcatholics believe? There is the catechism and various catholic sites that makes this so easily accessible. The problem i’m having is getting catholics to read the scriptures in context.When they do they will see that many of their doctrines are not supported by them.

This series of posts turns out to be an example of what the OP was talking about in the topic!

Since Catholics are not limited by the error of Sola Scriptura, it does not really matter if the scriptures say we are to honor them, or not, but in fact, they do!

No need to get into the sola scriptura issue. Just look carefully at what the scriptures say and you will find in many cases the support is not there for catholic doctrines. Praying to the saints who are supposedly in heaven is one such example.

“There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.” Rom 2:9-11

“love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor.” Rom 12:10

" Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due." Rom 13:7

“Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.” Eph 6:1-3

" So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me "
Phil 2:29-30

“Honor widows who are real widows.” 1 Tim 5:3

“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;” 1 Tim 5:17-18

“Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.” Heb 13:7

But I find no place where it instructs a person such as yourself to make false accusations against the brethren, or anyone else for that matter! Even if you believe Catholics are not your brothers in Christ, does that mean you should slander them?

What??? Give me a specific example of where i slandered someone?

You are clearly uneducated on the nature of worship, justasking. It is impossible to worship without the will. If a person does not intend worship,then worship does not occur, no matter how many “motions” they may go through while they engage in elements.

Not sure what you are saying here. Can you give me an example?

Having elements of something does not equate to being identical. Jesus celebrated the Passover with His disciples He kept the vast majority of the elements, and changed only a few. Did He intend for them to continue to practice the Passover according to the old covenant?

 

[justasking4]

RobHom;2639101]It is common knowledge that when the Jews were “worshipping” the “golden calf”…they were worshiping a FALSE PAGAN GOD. Its as simple as that. What they thought was wrong and the aftermath that followed proved it. SO whats your point?

Those that worshipped the calf at the time thought it was a representation of the true God. At the time of the worship they didn’t think it was wrong.

You are apparently suffering from “lockjaw” of the brain. See the post above this one where I posted the meaning of the word VENERATION. If that doesn’t make the difference between worship and veneration clear…then you have a serious problem in that you are intractably incapable of admitting you are in error.

Look at it this way, you have been taught a falsehood, and the facts are: CATHOLICS DO NOT “WORSHIP” THE VIRGIN MARY OR THE SAINTS. Get a firm grip on that fact and hold it close and dear. To continue to reguritatively spew the same venomous lies that you do over and over…is just plain “stupid”.

What you say here is not supported by your catechism. Here is what it says–
971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “**The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” **The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.” The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

Adoration means worship: religious worship of God, a deity, or a spirit.
Hopefully your response will free me from “lockjaw” of the brain

 

[Joel_Tunnah]

This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit

Do you not understand this sentence?

 

[dmelosi]

Those that worshipped the calf at the time thought it was a representation of the true God. At the time of the worship they didn’t think it was wrong.

What you say here is not supported by your catechism. Here is what it says–
971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “**The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” **The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.” The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

Adoration means worship: religious worship of God, a deity, or a spirit.
Hopefully your response will free me from “lockjaw” of the brain

Without trying to sound unkind, you contradict yourself here.

You quote from the Catechism “This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit”

And then you turn that into worship.

Can you not see how you are trying to twist things? Why?

 

[Newbie2]

Why do Catholic Worship Saints?

Easy answer: We don’t, we venerate. Look at the CCC definitions, not Webster’s

More complicated answer: Some would seem to. We had the relics of a saint in the last several years visit a local parish/Shrine in a nearby suburb. Some Catholics who went to visit the relics were almost rabid just to touch the plexiglass casing. Some were quoted as “I prayed to Saint (X), and he healed my cancer”.

So you can easily see how some take veneration to the very limit, and can cross the line, and how Protestants can sometimes legitimately claim that (some) Catholics seem to do so.

 

[TantumErgo90]

Catholics give the “worship of dulia” to saints and the “worship of hyperdulia” to the Blessed Virgin. In Catholic theology, there are three types of absolute worship (the worship of the saint/God because of themselves): Latria (given to God alone, in common usage, worship is the same as latria), hyperdulia (Mary alone), dulia (the heavenly court). We may also worship the saints with dulia by giving their statues or holy images relative worship, this means that we worship the statue or holy image because of the prototype (the person represented). The worship we give to the image goes to the saint. We worship the statue because by doing this we worship the saint. The image in of itself DOES NOT deserve or receive worship. The relative worship given to the image goes to the saint. That is why we worship the cross with relative latria on Good Friday. I am using the Catholic definition of worship, not the protestant.

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.

There are several degrees of this worship:

* if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
* When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
* As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

In accordance with these principles it will readily be understood that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent. The relic of the saint is venerated because of the link which unites it with the person who is adored or venerated; while the statue or picture is regarded as having a conventional relation to a person who has a right to our homage – as being a symbol which reminds us of that person

Relative worship is paid to a sign, not at all for its own sake, but for the sake of the thing signified. The sign in itself is nothing, but it shares the honour of its prototype. An insult to the sign (a flag or statue) is an insult to the thing of which it is a sign; so also we honour the prototype by honouring the sign. In this case all the outward marks of reverence, visibly directed towards the sign, turn in intention towards the real object of our reverence – the thing signified. The sign is only put UP as a visible direction for our reverence, because the real thing is not physically present. Every oneknows the use of such signs in ordinary life. People salute flags, bow to empty thrones, uncover to statues and so on, nor does any one think that this reverence is directed to coloured bunting or wood and stone.

 

[justasking4]

Do you not understand this sentence?

i guess not. Tell me what it means.

 

[davidv]

What you say here is not supported by your catechism. Here is what it says–
971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “**The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” **The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.” The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

It does not say that the devotion IS worship. It say “intrinsic to”, meaning part of.

Adoration means worship: religious worship of God, a deity, or a spirit.
Hopefully your response will free me from “lockjaw” of the brain

That is only one meaning and not the correct one in this context. From the Catholic Encyclopedia on the meaning of adoration:

In the strict sense, an act of religion offered to God in acknowledgment of His supreme perfection and dominion, and of the creature’s dependence upon Him; in a looser sense, the reverence shown to any person or object possessing, inherently or by association, a sacred character or a high degree of moral excellence.

 

[justasking4]

Catholics give the “worship of dulia” to saints and the “worship of hyperdulia” to the Blessed Virgin. In Catholic theology, there are three types of absolute worship (the worship of the saint/God because of themselves): Latria (given to God alone, in common usage, worship is the same as latria), hyperdulia (Mary alone), dulia (the heavenly court). We may also worship the saints with dulia by giving their statues or holy images relative worship, this means that we worship the statue or holy image because of the prototype (the person represented). The worship we give to the image goes to the saint. We worship the statue because by doing this we worship the saint. The image in of itself DOES NOT deserve or receive worship. The relative worship given to the image goes to the saint. That is why we worship the cross with relative latria on Good Friday. I am using the Catholic definition of worship, not the protestant.

So you are saying that catholic do worship Mary and the saints even though it is not the same level as to God?

If this is the case, then how does the average catholic know the difference between proper worship to God alone and that to Mary and the saints?

 

[justasking4]

davidv;2645126]It does not say that the devotion IS worship. It say “intrinsic to”, meaning part of.

Which means what?

That is only one meaning and not the correct one in this context. From the Catholic Encyclopedia on the meaning of adoration:

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Which type of worship do we use when we have false idols like television or money? For me it doesn’t seem to fit into any of those categories. So is it really a false god then?

Catholics give the “worship of dulia” to saints and the “worship of hyperdulia” to the Blessed Virgin. In Catholic theology, there are three types of absolute worship (the worship of the saint/God because of themselves): Latria (given to God alone, in common usage, worship is the same as latria), hyperdulia (Mary alone), dulia (the heavenly court). We may also worship the saints with dulia by giving their statues or holy images relative worship, this means that we worship the statue or holy image because of the prototype (the person represented). The worship we give to the image goes to the saint. We worship the statue because by doing this we worship the saint. The image in of itself DOES NOT deserve or receive worship. The relative worship given to the image goes to the saint. That is why we worship the cross with relative latria on Good Friday. I am using the Catholic definition of worship, not the protestant.