Why do Catholics Worship Saints?

[VociMike]

I’m going by what this catholic source says–Latria, as we have already said, is the name of this latter worship; and for the secondary kind, evoked by saints or angels, we use the term dulia. Thats what the article says. I ask you to stick to catholic definitions also or definitions from legit sources .

But your whole objection is that you define worship differently, as that which is suitable for God alone, and then you switch definitions in midstream and take a sentence which is using the different definition of worship in order to try and claim that the Church is doing something wrong.

Pick one definition of “worship” and stick to it. We will be happy to argue the Catholic position using whichever definition you choose, but statements which are true using one definition will not be true using another definition. For example, the statement about “secondary kind” of worship which you have been touting, is not a true statement if you impose a different definition of worship upon the statement. That is not a Catholic attempt to avoid an unpleasant truth, but rather a Catholic attempt to maintain the truth of a Catholic teaching in the face of shifting word definitions.

I repeat, pick one definition of worship and stick to it.

 

[TantumErgo90]

When i read catholic sources and see what many catholics are saying here there is a disconnect. For example many catholics claim not to worship Mary and yet there are a couple of words used that shows that they do. From a previous post these words were defined in terms of worship–The worship (dulia and hyperdulia) we give to the saints is **infinitely less than the worship **(latria) we give to God. Dulia, Hyperdulia, and Latria are entirely different forms of worship.
Even though dulia and hyerdulia are less than worship given to God it is still a form of worship.

When Catholics say they don’t worship Mary, they are defining worship as latria only. However, it techinically means honor, therefore, it includes Latria, Hyperdulia, and Dulia. They are using the Protestant definition. However, the theological correct defiintion for worship is to honor. In many countries, judges are “Your Worship”. They are not giving the worship of latria to those judges. In the post you quoted, the traditional definintion of worship was used. I prefer to say we give the worship of hyperdulia to Mary because I get to explain our beliefs. If we say we honor her, non-Catholics don’t usually ask another question. But if I use the Catholic definition of worship, they will ask, and I get to explain, and hopefully, they will understand better if I just say that we honor her. But both terms are correct.

 

[VociMike]

When i read catholic sources and see what many catholics are saying here there is a disconnect. For example many catholics claim not to worship Mary and yet there are a couple of words used that shows that they do.

That is because Catholics have to deal with the reality that you Protestants have altered the meaning of the English word “worship” from what it used to mean. Thus you will find Catholic teaching which uses the term “worship” in its old sense, and then you will hear Catholics who deny worshipping the saints because they are trying to be accomodating to you and are using the term “worship” in your new, altered sense. It is you (the Protestant world) that has brought about this confusion by changing the perfectly good meaning of a perfectly good word. And then after you change the definition, you charge us with changing our teaching, when what we are really doing is trying to talk to you in your own language.

This (ignorant or intentional) playing off of one definition against the other in order to score points against the Church makes me just crazy.

 

[dmelosi]

Are you familar with the terms your church uses for the different kinds of worship?

Do you worship the grounds your spouse or father or mother walk on?

 

[LilyM]

Are you familar with the terms your church uses for the different kinds of worship?

Put it this way. The average person knows what an onion is, they know what garlic is. They know there is a difference between the two, and that you use the two in different ways (you don’t put onion on garlic bread, for example).

They may not know the Latin names of these two (allium cepa and allium sativa respectively ) - or in fact that they are from the same family of plants (“allium”) and thus related.

It matters not a bit, they still somehow manage NOT to their onions confused with their garlic!

Same with us. We know Mary is creature and God is creator, we don’t confuse the two. We know that God is divine and deity and Mary isn’t, no confusion there.

We know that we give our supreme offering, the sacrifice of the Mass, to the creator alone, that all good things come from God through others (including Mary), and that it is Christ’s passion, death and ressurection which saves us.

So don’t presume to tell us that we’re confused.

As for the Golden Calf - they weren’t worshipping Yahweh/Jehovah. They simply made the statue of the calf and gave IT credit for bringing them out of Egypt. They knew it wasn’t Yahweh/Jehovah because they knew exactly where He was if they wanted to worship Him - up at the top of Sinai with Moses.

There’s no passage there showing that they claimed the Golden Calf was Yahweh/Jehovah …

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Bravo, Mike!

That is exactly what we have tried, over and over, to convey. In order to try to accommodate our Protestant brothers and sisters, we attempt to explain to them that our use of the word ‘worship’ in regards to saints and Mary does not mean the same as our use of the word ‘worship’ of God.

But what do they do? They haul out the books and say, “Look, right there, this writer says ‘worship Mary’. You DO worship Mary! The books SAY you do! The books use the word ‘worship’ right there! You lie, you lie, you lie!”

No matter how hard we try to explain that it was the PROTESTANTS who CHANGED THE MEANING OF THE WORD to begin with, still they refuse to accept that our use of the word, with the original meaning of worship, which DIFFERS FROM THEIR NEWFANGLED, NARROW DEFINITION, and PREDATES theirs by centuries, STILL MEANS THAT CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY AND THE SAINTS AS PROTESTANTS UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF THE WORD WORSHIP.

We are saying the same thing – that ‘worship’, in the sense that there is only ONE GOD, who ALONE is worthy of being adored, praised, and glorified AS LORD–is due to God. No Catholic worships Mary or the saints AS GOD.

But Catholics still have historically used the term ‘worship’ (as the Brits do today) as a term of veneration and respect, which can be accorded to godly people, like the saints and Mary.

We are not a narrow people. We are a communion. WE understand exactly what we are offering. But we refuse to go back and rewrite our works and our Bibles in order to conform to a narrow and thus INCOMPLETE language simply because some people have chosen to narrow their own language and concepts.

 

[VociMike]

Bravo, Mike!

That is exactly what we have tried, over and over, to convey. In order to try to accommodate our Protestant brothers and sisters, we attempt to explain to them that our use of the word ‘worship’ in regards to saints and Mary does not mean the same as our use of the word ‘worship’ of God.

But what do they do? They haul out the books and say, “Look, right there, this writer says ‘worship Mary’. You DO worship Mary! The books SAY you do! The books use the word ‘worship’ right there! You lie, you lie, you lie!”

No matter how hard we try to explain that it was the PROTESTANTS who CHANGED THE MEANING OF THE WORD to begin with, still they refuse to accept that our use of the word, with the original meaning of worship, which DIFFERS FROM THEIR NEWFANGLED, NARROW DEFINITION, and PREDATES theirs by centuries, STILL MEANS THAT CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY AND THE SAINTS AS PROTESTANTS UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF THE WORD WORSHIP.

We are saying the same thing – that ‘worship’, in the sense that there is only ONE GOD, who ALONE is worthy of being adored, praised, and glorified AS LORD–is due to God. No Catholic worships Mary or the saints AS GOD.

But Catholics still have historically used the term ‘worship’ (as the Brits do today) as a term of veneration and respect, which can be accorded to godly people, like the saints and Mary.

We are not a narrow people. We are a communion. WE understand exactly what we are offering. But we refuse to go back and rewrite our works and our Bibles in order to conform to a narrow and thus INCOMPLETE language simply because some people have chosen to narrow their own language and concepts.

And why do I just know that some Protestant is going to respond “yeah, sure, but it says right here on this internet site that you do worship Mary!”?

 

[East_and_West]

What exactly is the distinction between worship and honor and veneration? I’ve always been told that “worship is what we reserve for God” but… specifically what is its definition and what test can we use to check whether our veneration of a saint crosses the line into worship?

All throughout the Old Testament, to worship is to offer sacrifice. I offer my life to God as a living sacrifice as St. Paul puts its. I do NOT offer my life to the saints. I respect them. I love them as elder bothers and sisters in the faith. I love the way they reflect Christ. But my life, my very being belongs to the Trinity alone.

 

[guanophore]

Do your think when the children of Israel were worshipping the golden calf that they were not worshipping God? Did they not think this was the right thing to do?

I am not sure what is the point of your question, but in Egypt, bovines were worshipped. The Israelites despaired that Moses had left them, he was gone so long on the mountain. Even though the Lord had led them out of Egypt, they did not know HIm, or trust Him. They wanted to return to their old ways, and worshipping dumb idols was one of those ways. I am not sure if they thought it was right, or not. I am not sure they understood right from wrong. I think that is why God was giving them the commandments in the first place. However, I think it is clear they preferred a visible “god” in the form of a golden calf to the invisible God they did not know.

I agree. However it does not have to be identical but similar.

I would encourage you, then, not to be thrown astray by similarities. If you agree that Jesus fulfilled the Passover in Himself, and that animal sacrifices are no longer necessary, then you can accept that having a similarity between the Lord’s Supper and the Passover does not make them the same thing.

Elements that appear to be similar to worship do not create worship. Worship requires an act of the will. If a person kneels in front of someone, or something, and does not intend to worship, then worship does not occur.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Hi Justasking4,

What would you say is the difference between worshipping and giving honor and respect? If you give a definition you want to use, then we can answer based on that definition whether or not we worship Mary and the saints. It’s impossible to understand each other without choosing a definition for those terms.

Neil

Huh??? Here is what these terms defined by the catholic church mean in the article on adoration on the Advent site. Here are a couple of sentences from that article:
Latria, as we have already said, is the name of this latter worship; and for the secondary kind, evoked by saints or angels, we use the term dulia.

I don’t know how much clearer it can get than this…

 

[guanophore]

(Catholics do not worship Mary)

What you say here is not supported by your catechism. Here is what it says–
971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “**The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” **The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.” The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

Adoration means worship: religious worship of God, a deity, or a spirit.
Hopefully your response will free me from “lockjaw” of the brain

It says right there, justasking, that the respect we have for Mary differes in it’s essence from the adoration that is given to God. I don’t know how plain the Catechism can speak. There are many types of adoration. I may find a child adorable, but no matter how cute she is, she is not God. Apparently you have trouble understanding more than one meaning, or use of words in the language. If, for you, there is no distinction between honoring someone who is special to God, and worshipping humans, then it is best for you to refrain from honoring any saints. For you this would be a sin, since you cannot tell the difference between giving honor and veneration, and worship.

 

[guanophore]

So you are saying that catholic do worship Mary and the saints even though it is not the same level as to God?

If this is the case, then how does the average catholic know the difference between proper worship to God alone and that to Mary and the saints?

I think the language is archaic, and contributes problems in this context. It is honor and respect.

 

[Reepicheep]

JustAsking:
Do you accept the King James Version as an accurate translation of the Bible?
If so:
Luke 14, verses 7-11.
Christ sees guests at a feast trying to get the best seats. he tells them to choose the lowest seats.
Verse 11 has Christ say " But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher:** then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.**"

I’m quite sure you wouldn’t think Christ was telling people to practice humility so that other people will worship them as gods. Rather, at the time the King James Version was written, people could speak of “giving worship” to men, and mean only giving the respect and honor that is due to men. They knew very well the distinction between “worship” -respect- given to men and “WORSHIP” - adoration - given to God alone.
When old documents or books written by Catholics use the word “worship” of the Virgin Mary and the saints, they intend the first meaning - lower-case “worship”- honor and respect.
To God alone be the glory, forever and ever. Paying respect to the Virgin Mary in no way diminishes the glory of God. She exists only because He created her. She has grace only because He gave her grace.
She is the mother of Christ only because He chose her for this honor.
To Him alone be all the glory.

The change in the commonly used definition of the English word “worship” over the centuries does not cloud the distinction in our minds. It merely gives ammunition to some of those who dislike us

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;2645853]Put it this way. The average person knows what an onion is, they know what garlic is. They know there is a difference between the two, and that you use the two in different ways (you don’t put onion on garlic bread, for example).

They may not know the Latin names of these two (allium cepa and allium sativa respectively ) - or in fact that they are from the same family of plants (“allium”) and thus related.

It matters not a bit, they still somehow manage NOT to their onions confused with their garlic!

Same with us. We know Mary is creature and God is creator, we don’t confuse the two. We know that God is divine and deity and Mary isn’t, no confusion there.

This still does not address the issue. How does a cathlic know if he-she is properly worshipping? Catholics pray to Mary and God, Catholics praise Mary and God, Catholics ask Mary and God for help.

We know that we give our supreme offering, the sacrifice of the Mass, to the creator alone, that all good things come from God through others (including Mary), and that it is Christ’s passion, death and ressurection which saves us.

So don’t presume to tell us that we’re confused.

There certainly is confusion on this.Many catholics claim they are not worshipping Mary yet when we look at the definition of dulia, hyperdulia, veneration etc we see that these are worship words.

As for the Golden Calf - they weren’t worshipping Yahweh/Jehovah.

That may be. However when you read the text they did think they were worshipping a god.

They simply made the statue of the calf and gave IT credit for bringing them out of Egypt. They knew it wasn’t Yahweh/Jehovah because they knew exactly where He was if they wanted to worship Him - up at the top of Sinai with Moses.

There’s no passage there showing that they claimed the Golden Calf was Yahweh/Jehovah …

They certainly thought they were doing the right thing though. Otherwise they would never have done it.

 

[VociMike]

This still does not address the issue. How does a cathlic know if he-she is properly worshipping?

How does a Protestant know?

 

[Usagi]

This still does not address the issue. How does a cathlic know if he-she is properly worshipping? Catholics pray to Mary and God,

If you mean “pray” in the sense of “ask,” then yes we do. We also ask things of friends and relatives on Earth, and that’s not taken as an act of worship.

If you mean “pray” in the sense of “talk in your head to someone who is not visible,” then yes, that too. But I do not see that “talking in your head to someone who is not visible” is inherently an act of worship. It’s the way we generally communicate with God, yes, but does that make the method itself worshipful in all situations?

Catholics praise Mary and God,

And we praise people we know or hear about, if they have done something praiseworthy. Again, not inherently an act of worship.

Catholics ask Mary and God for help.

And, again, we ask people we know on Earth for help with various matters. Not inherently worshipful behavior.

Now, what is inherently worshipful, in Catholic thinking? The offer of sacrifice, in our case Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. And in union with Christ himself, we offer that only to God, never to any lesser being.

There certainly is confusion on this.Many catholics claim they are not worshipping Mary yet when we look at the definition of dulia, hyperdulia, veneration etc we see that these are worship words.

As several others have tried to explain, there are multiple senses of the word “worship” at work here.

In the older, broader sense, “worship” could be used as a synonym for “respect” or “honor.” Hence, we have officials addressed as “Your Worship,” and one form of wedding ceremony in England includes the statement “with my body I thee worship,” spoken from bride to groom and vice versa. If you want to use “worship” in that sense, then yes, we worship (respect and honor) the saints. However, we use different Greek and Latin terms to differentiate that practice (dulia/hyperdulia or veneration) from the worship of God (latria or adoration).

In the more recent, narrower sense, “worship” includes only the level of honor and praise due to God Himself, and is inappropriately used with respect to any being not on the same plane as God. If you want to use that sense of “worship,” which seems to be more common among non-Catholic Christians who object to Catholics’ apparent “worship” of the saints, then Catholics will naturally affirm that we are monotheists and thus worship no one but God. In the narrow sense, “worship” is equivalent to latria or adoration only, and does not include dulia/hyperdulia/veneration.

If other Christians can manage to distinguish between the worship of God and the honor they give to parents, pastors, and other people whom they respect, why is it so hard to believe that Catholics can distinguish between the worship of God and the honor due to the saints? Is it just because the saints are in Heaven and not visible to us, and therefore we have to communicate with them as we do God? Or is there some other reason?

Usagi

 

[guanophore]

This still does not address the issue. How does a cathlic know if he-she is properly worshipping? Catholics pray to Mary and God, Catholics praise Mary and God, Catholics ask Mary and God for help.

It is possible that some people are ignorant about worship, and may be improperly catechized. I suppose one must hold out the possiblity that someone really doesn’t know the difference between onion and garlic, creature and creator. I think it would be up to God to reveal Himself as creator to such people.

It may be that a person is so relationally ignorant that they do not understand the difference in giving praise to a child who has done well, and praise to God. It may be that a person is so ignorant of the communion of saints that one does not understand the difference between worship and adoration of the divine, and asking for the intercession of one’s peers. It may be that an individual could be so ignorant of the divine nature as to not understand the difference in quality of divine help, and human help.

There certainly is confusion on this.Many catholics claim they are not worshipping Mary yet when we look at the definition of dulia, hyperdulia, veneration etc we see that these are worship words.

I am sorry that you are confused about our relationship with the Saints. I think the basic problem here, in addition to the ignorance of the nature of worship, is a lack of understanding about the communion of saints.

They certainly thought they were doing the right thing though. Otherwise they would never have done it.

If this is in reference to the Golden Calf, falling into error because you think it is right does not make the error right. I am not at all convinced that the Israelites made and worshipped the idol because they believed it was right, but more because it was what they wanted.

 

[Brendan]

This still does not address the issue. How does a cathlic know if he-she is properly worshipping? Catholics pray to Mary and God, Catholics praise Mary and God, Catholics ask Mary and God for help.
.

The verb ‘to pray’ means ‘to ask’, it’s root is the Latin verb ‘precari’ which means ‘to ask or to implore’ ( same root as the English word ‘predicament’ - a time to ask for help.

Here is Websters on the subject

Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: 'prA
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frAga question, frAgEn to ask, Sanskrit prcchati he asks
transitive verb
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE – often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

We can see that in Shakespear as well,

Hamlet Act I, Scene II

Hamlet is preparing to leave, and Queen Gertrude interups, saying

“Hamlet; I pray thee, stay with us; go not to Wittenberg”

Is Shakespeare portraying Gertrude as actually worshipping Hamlet by praying to him?

We see the same thing in modern times on legal documents. At the end of a court filing will be a “Prayer for Remedy” where the plaintif asked the court to take a particular action, such as make the defendant pay them a Gizillion dollars for serving them coffee that was too hot.

Were you able to figure out on your own that Gertrude wasn’t worshipping Hamlet, or that lawyers aren’t worshiping judges when they ask the court for help?

It’s not any more difficult for Catholics to distingish prayer from worship either.

And yes, we do ask Mary for help, are you honestly trying to tell us that you have Never, ever asked another human for assistantance in anything?

If you did, did you have any trouble distinguishing that request for help from worship of the person?

 

[Reepicheep]

This still does not address the issue. How does a cathlic know if he-she is properly worshipping?

We know what we intend. If there is no intent to worship then there is no worship.

Catholics pray to Mary and God, Catholics praise Mary and God, Catholics ask Mary and God for help.

Once I asked my friend Jamie to help me with my computer. When he did, I thanked him and praised him for his computer skills.
Does this mean I was worshipping Jamie?

There certainly is confusion on this.
Many catholics claim they are not worshipping Mary yet when we look at the definition of dulia, hyperdulia, veneration etc we see that these are worship words.

And we are quite clear on the distinction.** Latria** means that which is due to God alone. Latria means **what you mean **when you say “worship”.

Dulia means the respect due the saints in Heaven, and is clearly not Latria. Therefore **by your definition **of the word “worship” dulia is not worship.
The fact that the old definition of worship – which you no longer use – includes dulia, is beside the point. You don’t imagine that Christ in Luke 14:11 is telling people to expect to be treated as gods: **you know the difference. **
The same argument applies to hyperdulia. It is not worship according to your definition.

That may be. However when you read the text they did think they were worshipping a god.

Then you acknowledge the importance of intent.
I never intend to give latria to the Virgin Mary. Latria is due to God alone, and to God alone we give latria.

They certainly thought they were doing the right thing though. Otherwise they would never have done it.