Why do certain Protestant churches reject Liturgical worship?

[KathleenGee]

An excellent read on the liturgy is ‘Worthy is the Lamb’, Tom Nash…Cardinal Ratzinger, ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’…

So much to the Mass…yes…set form because everything we witness at Mass represents a truth and are forms of catechesis…as we pray, we believe.

As we worship Christ visibly on the altar through the Eucharist, we are joined and made worthy with the Glorified Christ at the altar before God. So the response is one of adoration and reflection.

A more animated praise worship is where we would find at a more unstructured fellowship gathering, unstructured in compared to the norms of the Mass…even the priest must hold his hands a certain way.

 

[JustaServant]

There is a story about a Pentecostal church. There is a woman who had the habit of always interrupting the new preacher during his sermon to give a message in tongues. After several Sundays of this happening, the new preacher sees her begin to stand up during his sermon and he tells her she can’t give a message right now. The woman says, “But God has told me to give a message.” And the preacher says, “But God has told me to preach the Word, and the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion.”

At our Baptist church years ago a visitor (a woman) interupted the service with a “prophecy”. We had at that time a deacon named Dave who was a pretty big guy. The preacher just said “Dave…”. All the guy did was walk up beside her and the “prophecy” stopped.

 

[ltwin]

At our Baptist church years ago a visitor (a woman) interupted the service with a “prophecy”. We had at that time a deacon named Dave who was a pretty big guy. The preacher just said “Dave…”. All the guy did was walk up beside her and the “prophecy” stopped.

My question is why would she even attempt to prophesy in a Baptist church (unless it was a charismatic Baptist church). That is just crazy. Plus, she was a visitor. Even Pentecostal pastors wont let some unknown person prophesy in their services. Before people are permitted to speak in any capacity, their character should be known and their beliefs tested. She was definitely out of order. If God had given her a prophecy, she should have requested to meet with the pastor and told him what had been revealed to her.

So you were Baptist before you converted to Catholicism? Did your Baptist church ever address liturgy?

 

[JustaServant]

My question is why would she even attempt to prophesy in a Baptist church (unless it was a charismatic Baptist church). That is just crazy. Plus, she was a visitor. Even Pentecostal pastors wont let some unknown person prophesy in their services. Before people are permitted to speak in any capacity, their character should be known and their beliefs tested. She was definitely out of order. If God had given her a prophecy, she should have requested to meet with the pastor and told him what had been revealed to her.

So you were Baptist before you converted to Catholicism? Did your Baptist church ever address liturgy?

Your story reminded me of that incident. Yeah, she was a visitor.

As to your second question, grew up Catholic, left the Church for 20 years, became a fundamental Baptist, Pastored for a time, reverted back to Catholic. That’s pretty much the Reader’s Digest version.
Liturgy? Heck no. That was Catholic and therefore evil. Even introducing public Scripture reading into the service was out of the question.
Fundamental Baptist church order:
Greeting.
Opening song.
Announcments.
2nd Song.
Offering.
Special music.
Sermon.
Final song with invitation (a very sacramental and liturgical practice I might add).
Closing prayer.

 

[nickybr38]

Your story reminded me of that incident. Yeah, she was a visitor.

As to your second question, grew up Catholic, left the Church for 20 years, became a fundamental Baptist, Pastored for a time, reverted back to Catholic. That’s pretty much the Reader’s Digest version.
Liturgy? Heck no. That was Catholic and therefore evil. Even introducing public Scripture reading into the service was out of the question.
Fundamental Baptist church order:
Greeting.
Opening song.
Announcments.
2nd Song.
Offering.
Special music.
Sermon.
Final song with invitation (a very sacramental and liturgical practice I might add).
Closing prayer.

Isn’t the church order a form of liturgy unto itself though? Or am I like grossly misunderstanding the word?

 

[Le_Cracquere]

When I was a preacher, there were many times I used to ‘wing it’, in regards to the sermon, music, ect. So, as you can imagine, you never knew what was going to happen from one Sunday to the next. So many churches resemble more like a informal meeting on somebody’s back porch, there is no sense of sacredness.
In a liturgical church however, the order of a liturgy in its structural framework must be unaltered.
Without a fixed order, a liturgy is like a body without a skeleton, a game without rules.
A fixed order is necessary if worship is to be corporate.
A fixed order keeps the fact of redemption before men’s thoughts continually with fixedwords, expressions and symbolism.
The early Church had a high view of God. Things were not done in a haphazard way. They were done with precision. Worshippers knew something important was happening here. They just did not stumble in and sit for an hour. Abuses occur when we forget.
Catholic worship, on the other hand, is not without meaning. When matched with the Power of the Holy Spirit, Catholic liturgy finds it’s most powerful expression. Words, prayers, creeds, and songs are chosen carefully.There is precise language that is used, not words chosen in a haphazard way. The language of worship is important, words must be chosen carefully.
The object in liturgical worship is God alone. Not the preacher, not the music. It is a corporate expression of worship to an invisible God. It is not a spectator sport, it is an interactive experience. The center of that interactivness is the Eucharist.
One of the chief values of a liturgy is that it teaches us both how to pray and what things we should pray for.
Jesus said “true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”
We do not dictate to God how He is worshiped. It’s not about us, its about giving Him a sacrifice of praise for what He has done for us.

You appear to bring a different set of assumptions to the table than the Protestant churches in question. What you consider “bugs,” many of them consider “features.”

For example, many Charismatic churches equate “a sense of sacredness” with Pharasaism. And so far from constituting a flaw, a “game without rules” comes close to their ideal for a church service.

They often don’t believe that “corporate worship” is desirable, or even possible–salvation and worship are ultimately between the individual believer and God. Anything that distracts from the irreducible one-to-oneness of believer/God interaction is considered misguided, if not apostate–to them, it’s almost implying that membership in a group or church can save a man.

In short, some Evangelicals and Charismatics are opposed to ANY material focus for worship, whether it be a liturgy, the Eucharist, or the corporate nature of the gathered believers. Yo their minds, it’s a short step from focussing on such outward forms to demanding, like the Israelites in Sinai, a “god they can see.”

This is going to strike cradle Catholics as a bizarre worldview, but understanding it is essential to even understanding their language, as it were.

 

[KathleenGee]

I will attempt to show order of the daily Sacrifice of the Mass:

Greeting and opening prayer of liturgical year - We are standing
‘Confitier’…absolution of ordinary sin

Liturgy of the Word - We sit

First reading of the Old Testament - Lay reads
Psalm and Responsorial - Lay reads
Second reading of the New Testament - Lay reads
Reading of Gospel by priest - we stand
Priest Homily…refer to readings and particular celebration of year - we sit
Lay and priest reflect on readings of the Word
Apostles Creed - we stand
Prayers of Faithful - here we openly pray our intentions

Liturgy of the Eucharist
Offertory: We sit - Preparation of gifts of bread and wine by priest
Offering of gifts we stand
Sanctus - Holy, Holy, Holy – prayers of angels in Old Testament -
Then we kneel
Eucharistic Prayer and consecration of bread and wine at Epiclesis –
Priest calls down Holy Spirit to change bread and wine into Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity of Christ
Great Amen to reality of Christ among us–we proclaim then stand
Priest and lay together pray Our Father out loud
Lamb of God we pray openly
Reception of Eucharist
Silent meditation kneel or sit
Final blessing - we stand

Dismissal

We can sing standing at beginning, sing sitting during the offertory, and/or sing at dismissal. As you can see, we also use our whole being to pray and participate in the Mass as some other Protestant congregations do.

 

[JonNC]

I will attempt to show order of the daily Sacrifice of the Mass:

Greeting and opening prayer of liturgical year - We are standing
‘Confitier’…absolution of ordinary sin

Liturgy of the Word - We sit

First reading of the Old Testament - Lay reads
Psalm and Responsorial - Lay reads
Second reading of the New Testament - Lay reads
Reading of Gospel by priest - we stand
Priest Homily…refer to readings and particular celebration of year - we sit
Lay and priest reflect on readings of the Word
Apostles Creed - we stand
Prayers of Faithful - here we openly pray our intentions

Liturgy of the Eucharist
Offertory: We sit - Preparation of gifts of bread and wine by priest
Offering of gifts we stand
Sanctus - Holy, Holy, Holy – prayers of angels in Old Testament -
Then we kneel
Eucharistic Prayer and consecration of bread and wine at Epiclesis –
Priest calls down Holy Spirit to change bread and wine into Body, Blood, Soul, Divinity of Christ
Great Amen to reality of Christ among us–we proclaim then stand
Priest and lay together pray Our Father out loud
Lamb of God we pray openly
Reception of Eucharist
Silent meditation kneel or sit
Final blessing - we stand

Dismissal

We can sing standing at beginning, sing sitting during the offertory, and/or sing at dismissal. ** As you can see, we also use our whole being to pray and participate in the Mass as some other Protestant congregations do**.

Yes, Kathleen. Linked is typical Lutheran divine worship. Virtually the same as the one you have given us here.
goodshepherd.nb.ca/liturgy/

Jon

 

[David]

Jesus teaching the Apostles how to worship can be seen here:
Luke 22:19* And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you.** Do this in remembrance of me**.”

This is what Justin Martyr wrote about the mass, to the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius. It is dated to the period 150-155.

“On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.” In chapter 65, Justin Martyr says that the kiss of peace was given before the bread and the wine mixed with water were brought to “the president of the brethren.” The language used was doubtless Greek, except in particular for the Hebrew word “Amen”, whose meaning Justin explains in Greek (γένοιτο), saying that by it “all the people present express their assent” when the president of the brethren “has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings.”

Peace to all
David

 

[ltwin]

Isn’t the church order a form of liturgy unto itself though? Or am I like grossly misunderstanding the word?

Order is not what non-liturgical Protestants are against. “Liturgy” as in a customary order to public services is not what Protestants refer to when they say “non-liturgical.” “Liturgy” in this context takes on a more restrictive sense, the word “liturgy” describes a more extravagant structure for worship.

You appear to bring a different set of assumptions to the table than the Protestant churches in question. What you consider “bugs,” many of them consider “features.”

For example, many Charismatic churches equate “a sense of sacredness” with Pharasaism. And so far from constituting a flaw, a “game without rules” comes close to their ideal for a church service.

They often don’t believe that “corporate worship” is desirable, or even possible–salvation and worship are ultimately between the individual believer and God. Anything that distracts from the irreducible one-to-oneness of believer/God interaction is considered misguided, if not apostate–to them, it’s almost implying that membership in a group or church can save a man.

In short, some Evangelicals and Charismatics are opposed to ANY material focus for worship, whether it be a liturgy, the Eucharist, or the corporate nature of the gathered believers. Yo their minds, it’s a short step from focussing on such outward forms to demanding, like the Israelites in Sinai, a “god they can see.”

This is going to strike cradle Catholics as a bizarre worldview, but understanding it is essential to even understanding their language, as it were.

I agree about considering things “features.” However, I don’t understand what you mean by equating “‘a sense of sacredness’ with Pharasaism.” They do no such thing. They are gathering together as the body of Christ to worship their Lord and Savior, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The same Jesus who said, “Where two or three are gathered I will be in the midst.” How can this not be “corporate worship” when you are singing the same songs, praying together, and interacting with the sermon? How can it not be sacred when you are setting aside 2 or so hours of your day aside and dedicating them solely to worship the Lord? (I understand that there are some seeker sensitive churches who do stuff like let people sip starbucks during the service, but there are plenty of Protestant churches that take worship seriously and consider a church sanctuary as a place of reverance by virtue of it being dedicated to the worship of God).

I think this brings out two points: what definition of “sacred” do you have (apparently, to be sacred something must be ritualistic and pre-planned???) and what definition of “corporate worship” you have (apparently everyone must be saying the same exact prayers for it to be corporate???) If other people distract from “the irreducible one-to-oneness of believer/God interaction” and this is considered apostate, then why on God’s name have church at all? I think what you are getting at is the fact that many non-liturgical Protestants object to sacramentalism and the automatic saving nature of ritual acts. However, this is a different subject than corporate worship and ideas of sacredness.

 

[ltwin]

Your story reminded me of that incident. Yeah, she was a visitor.

As to your second question, grew up Catholic, left the Church for 20 years, became a fundamental Baptist, Pastored for a time, reverted back to Catholic. That’s pretty much the Reader’s Digest version.
Liturgy? Heck no. That was Catholic and therefore evil. Even introducing public Scripture reading into the service was out of the question.
Fundamental Baptist church order:
Greeting.
Opening song.
Announcments.
2nd Song.
Offering.
Special music.
Sermon.
Final song with invitation (a very sacramental and liturgical practice I might add).
Closing prayer.

Well, I will tell you that I’ve seen things in the Pentecostal world which shocked me. My pastor is affiliated with a group of other ministers. For a reason unknown (this person has NO authority over other churches), this group of pastors arranged for a self proclaimed “bishop” to ordain the president of this group as a “bishop.” This isn’t strange.

What was strange is that the ordination service looked like it had been stolen from a Roman Missal and they dressed this “bishop-elect” (why they called him “elect” I will never know because no one elected him!) in mitre and liturgical vestments and gave him a crozier.

It was strange. I wasn’t at this service (being away at university) but I was told about it and people from my church who were there had no idea what all of it was. I told them it was copied from Catholicism and they were bewildered. But our pastor still acts the same way he always has. It was just the leader of this organization and I’m still sort of baffled by it all.

My pastor is the only white pastor in this group. All the other pastors are African-American, maybe that has something to do with it. I thought I’d never see the day that Pentecostals would dress in historical church vestments. Wonders never cease.

 

[KathleenGee]

God Himself dictated what kind of worship was pleasing to Him – involved rituals, the inner chamber where only the High Priest could enter once a year – the Day of the Atonement…as well as the daily sacrifice of the lamb…remembering the Passover…

On the Day of the Atonement, only the High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies…with two statues ordained by God to face the Mercy Seat…and the High Priest would sprinkle the blood of the lamb.

For Catholics, sacraments are Christ present in concrete form. He said He would always be with us. Christ said to ‘Do This in Memory of Me…’

When the altar brings present Christ Himself in the Eucharist…we have before the presence of God Himself…the same God Who freed the Jews out of exile, Who was the Pilar of Fire leading them through the desert, Who fed them manna from heaven, Who was Incarnated through the Holy Spirit with Mary, Who was placed in an animal feeder, the manger, to become food for us…born in Bethlehem, House of Bread…Who like the Jewish people, was also exiled into Egypt as a small child to His temptations in the desert to become the Sacrificial Lamb as atonement for our sins.

Jesus Christ is the High Priest Who, in His ascension into heaven, enters into God’s Holy Place in heaven at His throne and stands as the Sacrificial Lamb at the heavenly altar, where now our sacrifices united with Him at Mass, are now made pleasing and acceptable to the Father for the atonement of sin in this world…

Sin is happening around the world 24/7 and the daily Sacrifice of the Mass is being offered through the glorified Lord at the heavenly altar…the Sacrificial Lamb standing…

When people can see the saving and redeeming power of Christ in the Mass…Christ, the Tree of Life that Adam and Eve refused its fruit in the Garden of Eden…we are restored with life in the fruit of the Eucharist coming from Jesus, Tree of Life…

Alot of depth…and when the Mass is finally recognized for what it is – the greatest power of good on earth, then every phrase of Scripture now makes sense and is all interconnected…We see Scripture in context of its whole and in relation to the faith of salvation history of many people before us, those of today, and of tomorrow.

Christ said, ‘Do this’…’, not ‘write this’…book form. Ours is Oral Tradition…hearing and doing…Liturgy is the work of the people in response to Christ’s decree at the Last Supper.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

I agree about considering things “features.” However, I don’t understand what you mean by equating “‘a sense of sacredness’ with Pharasaism.” They do no such thing. They are gathering together as the body of Christ to worship their Lord and Savior, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The same Jesus who said, “Where two or three are gathered I will be in the midst.” How can this not be “corporate worship” when you are singing the same songs, praying together, and interacting with the sermon? How can it not be sacred when you are setting aside 2 or so hours of your day aside and dedicating them solely to worship the Lord? (I understand that there are some seeker sensitive churches who do stuff like let people sip starbucks during the service, but there are plenty of Protestant churches that take worship seriously and consider a church sanctuary as a place of reverance by virtue of it being dedicated to the worship of God).

I think this brings out two points: what definition of “sacred” do you have (apparently, to be sacred something must be ritualistic and pre-planned???) and what definition of “corporate worship” you have (apparently everyone must be saying the same exact prayers for it to be corporate???) If other people distract from “the irreducible one-to-oneness of believer/God interaction” and this is considered apostate, then why on God’s name have church at all? I think what you are getting at is the fact that many non-liturgical Protestants object to sacramentalism and the automatic saving nature of ritual acts. However, this is a different subject than corporate worship and ideas of sacredness.

In Evangelical and Charismatic churches, it’s kind of a spectrum. Many of them (by no means all) emphasize the individual relationship with God to precisely the lengths I described. I don’t agree with that emphasis, but it adequately describes some churches I’ve been to.

When you ask “why have church at all, then?”, you’ve spotted a major weakness in this stance. In fact, these churches tend to gloss over the question of why believers should gather at all in a particular building on a particular day. Eventually, I think, such internal contradictions will come back to bite them.

But tellingly, these contradictions and instabilities come from following the anti-liturgical argument to its logical conclusion.

 

[KathleenGee]

I was passing through the tv channels and saw a bishop who was Afro American…and it looked like Pentecostal…but he did not speak like Catholic bishops…more like Pentecostal.

Yes…there has a been a recent time when Catholic priests and religious were dressing more in lay clothing.

Recall in Exodus the priests were directed to wear certain garments…even images of pomegranets…symbolizing the Holy Spirit.

 

[andrewstx]

You appear to bring a different set of assumptions to the table than the Protestant churches in question. What you consider “bugs,” many of them consider “features.”

For example, many Charismatic churches equate “a sense of sacredness” with Pharasaism. And so far from constituting a flaw, a “game without rules” comes close to their ideal for a church service.

They often don’t believe that “corporate worship” is desirable, or even possible–salvation and worship are ultimately between the individual believer and God. Anything that distracts from the irreducible one-to-oneness of believer/God interaction is considered misguided, if not apostate–to them, it’s almost implying that membership in a group or church can save a man.

In short, some Evangelicals and Charismatics are opposed to ANY material focus for worship, whether it be a liturgy, the Eucharist, or the corporate nature of the gathered believers. Yo their minds, it’s a short step from focussing on such outward forms to demanding, like the Israelites in Sinai, a “god they can see.”

This is going to strike cradle Catholics as a bizarre worldview, but understanding it is essential to even understanding their language, as it were.

I see much evangelical and charismatic worship as private worship held in a public space.
To avoid the terrible sin of written prayers only one person can pray while the others just sit silently and listen. It is to me like a show in front of a passive audience.

This comes from pietism the desire that all prayer be extempore and made up on the spot, except it usually isn’t. Those “from the heart” prayers have a tendency to sound the same just changing a few words and phrases.

I was born and raised in a denomination that “observed the Lord’s Supper” every sunday.
They would have one man pray over the matzo crackers and another to pray over the grape juice. And the prayers were always very near the same.

“Dear heavenly Father. we thank thee for this bread which is a SYMBOL of Christ’s body broken on the cruel cross of Cavalry. Help us to do this in a manner pleasing in thy sight.”

Sincere or doing the opposite of the Catholic church?

 

[SaintPatrick333]

They don’t reject in so much as I think most don’t understand it I think.I have some friends who said they went to a Mass and thought it was nice!

Also they don’t believe communion is what the CC teaches, and I’ve heard also they don’t like Jesus still being on the Cross. Except for converts I think it’ mainly the way one is raised.

Also its very structured. Thank goodness we have different readings and homilies every week.

I think God probably likes variety,

I wouldn’t say God likes variety. God created only ONE Church after all. Not to mention Christ established the Mass through His Apostles so the way the Catholics worship is the way Christ taught His Apostles. I’m not badmouthing any others type of service but if you’re going to one of those churches for all the emotion and dancing and excitement then it’s more of a service of praise rather than true worship. Not trying to pick fights or use divisive language, but Christ established one Church and gave us the beautiful gift of the Eucharist and the Mass. ALL are called to it. If some want to turn their backs on it because it’s too structured or not as much fun, then it’s hard to think they are truly seeking God with 100% of their hearts. Hopefully 99% will cut it.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Well, I will tell you that I’ve seen things in the Pentecostal world which shocked me. My pastor is affiliated with a group of other ministers. For a reason unknown (this person has NO authority over other churches), this group of pastors arranged for a self proclaimed “bishop” to ordain the president of this group as a “bishop.” This isn’t strange.

What was strange is that the ordination service looked like it had been stolen from a Roman Missal and they dressed this “bishop-elect” (why they called him “elect” I will never know because no one elected him!) in mitre and liturgical vestments and gave him a crozier.

It was strange. I wasn’t at this service (being away at university) but I was told about it and people from my church who were there had no idea what all of it was. I told them it was copied from Catholicism and they were bewildered. But our pastor still acts the same way he always has. It was just the leader of this organization and I’m still sort of baffled by it all.

My pastor is the only white pastor in this group. All the other pastors are African-American, maybe that has something to do with it. I thought I’d never see the day that Pentecostals would dress in historical church vestments. Wonders never cease.

Sounds like the Full Gospel Baptist Fellowship

 

[ltwin]

I see much evangelical and charismatic worship as private worship held in a public space.
To avoid the terrible sin of written prayers only one person can pray while the others just sit silently and listen. It is to me like a show in front of a passive audience.

That’s not how prayer is conducted in the churches I’m familiar with. Yes, there is usually someone who leads the prayer, but the rest of the congregation is expected to audibly pray aloud as well.

 

[andrewstx]

That’s not how prayer is conducted in the churches I’m familiar with. Yes, there is usually someone who leads the prayer, but the rest of the congregation is expected to audibly pray aloud as well.

All with extempore made up as you go along prayers?

That sounds like bedlam and not “decently and in order”.

What is the problem with written prayers so everyone can pray together using the same words?

 

[ltwin]

All with extempore made up as you go along prayers?

That sounds like bedlam and not “decently and in order”.

What is the problem with written prayers so everyone can pray together using the same words?

Nothing is wrong with it. We just don’t do it much. We come together, we pray together, in agreement. It is not necessary to memorize a prayer and all say the exact same thing to be in unity or in order or decent.