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nickybr38
Guest
We have prayers that not everyone in the congregation has memorized and that only one person reads in the Catholic Mass as well. Some of our prayers are memorized by all and some aren’t.
Why do certain Protestant churches reject Liturgical worship?
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Publisher
Guest
Friends don’t “reject” liturgy…we find that the mode and form of worship we engage in Meeting “speaks to our condition” better than a liturgical order of worship. Each Friend has the opportunity to offer “vocal ministry” or prayer or sing or read the scriptures as each are led by the Spirit.
C
cajunhillbilly
Guest
I was at a friends Catholic church last night for a concert and read the missal. Thought I was reading the Book of Common Prayer liturgy, it was so similar.
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
Is this imitation of Catholicism with instant-bishops wearing mitres and holding croziers spreading? Here’s a newly-ordained Missionary Baptist “bishop.” Is this the same “bishop” you wrote about? Naw. What would a Baptist “bishop” be doing at a Pentecostal “ordination”?
But according to this article, Pentecostal ministers were present for the “ordination” of this “bishop” and “laid hands on him.”
hamptonroads.com/node/336411
P.S. No one elected him and no one ordained him either.
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4Squarebaby
Guest
Full Gospel Baptist are Pentecostal, many of their early adherents drifted over from the Missionary Baptist The separate denominations thing is often brought up, but the separation is not so intense to have the meaning I think Catholics tend to give it.
J
Jim_Dandy
Guest
But not for celebrating the Mass, right Kathleen?
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A_G
Guest
Those particular Protestant churches that reject Liturgical worship feel that it is paganism and anti-Biblical. They feel that Catholicism is a type of false teaching and that it goes against Jesus’ teachings.
We should pray for those protestants to understand that in fact Jesus Christ is the founder of what is the Catholic Church.
We should pray for those protestants to understand that in fact Jesus Christ is the founder of what is the Catholic Church.
L
ltwin
Guest
This is such a an overblown generalization that as a definition for why some Protestant churches reject liturgical worship it is utterly useless. Non-liturgical Protestants have always read from special service books which give step by step instructions for how the service should go. For example, my pastor reads from a book of special services when he dedicates children.
Some may feel that elements of Catholic worship is paganism and anti-Biblical. However, that doesn’t mean that everyone rejects “liturgical worship” because of that. Anglicans and Lutherans have liturgical worship, but many non-liturgical churches would not consider them pagan or anti-Biblical. For many Protestants who reject liturgical worship, liturgical worship by itself does not imply paganism and anti-Bible.
O
onemangang
Guest
I use to attend Calvary Chapel and Reality L.A this parody mirrored their services.
It was non-liturgical but they do have their own rituals, although they would totally reject the term ritual to describe it!
youtu.be/3RJBd8zE48A
It was non-liturgical but they do have their own rituals, although they would totally reject the term ritual to describe it!
youtu.be/3RJBd8zE48A
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ltwin
Guest
Nope. These are non-denominational Pentecostal pastors of the prosperity gospel variety who come together to do whatever they do . . . .
Seems so. I have no idea who this group is but it’s got “Charismatic” in the name:
The International Communion of Charismatic Churches
No.
Actually, Baptists and Pentecostals agree on a lot. Black Baptists, especially tend to expressive worship conducive to Pentecostals.
On the bolded, why not? The fact is that Lutheran liturgy has its basis in Catholic liturgy, and with the exception of sacrifice and marion language, it is virtually the same. The distinction seems rather arbitrary.
Jon
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JustaServant
Guest
I believe one of the reasons non-liturgical evangelicals do not understand liturgy is they do not have a historical perspective. They are thinking with post-Enlightenment eyes. Even the early Reformers understood the importance of a fixed order of service.
The word ‘liturgy’ comes from two Greek words meaning ‘people’ and ‘work’. In its root meaning, liturgy means an act performed for the good of a community.
In its restricted meaning, it refers to the public rites and ceremonies officially authorized by the Church.
It is literally the ‘work of the people’ in their common life of prayer and worship.
It is used in several places in the New Testament, particularly in Acts 13:1. It is a word “transliterated” into the English language.
A liturgy disciplines our prayers, making them fit for expression, unselfish in content, and comprehensive in scope. They are not haphazardly thrown together in recesses of my finite mind.
A liturgy instructs us in the totality of the Christian faith and in the whole range of worship: confession, praise, intercession and self-offering.
The order of a liturgy in its structural framework must be unaltered. Without a fixed order, a liturgy is like a body without a skeleton, a game without rules., a train hopelessly looking for a track. A fixed order is necessary if worship is to be corporate. A fixed order keeps the fact of redemption before men’s thoughts continually with fixed words, expressions and symbolism.
It is simply the “form” of worship, nothing more or less. Liturgy is neither alive nor dead, it simply is.
The Jewish synagogues passed on to Christianity the forms of corporate worship. The reading of scripture, a confession of faith, prayers and the singing of Psalms all have its roots in Jewish worship.
From the Temple and Synagogue worship, the Apostles already knew the rites and the ceremonies that God ordained to worship Him. God set down the first “order of service” in Leviticus. Only now those rites and ceremonies took on new meaning in Christ and were transferred to the worship rites of primitive Church.
continued…
The word ‘liturgy’ comes from two Greek words meaning ‘people’ and ‘work’. In its root meaning, liturgy means an act performed for the good of a community.
In its restricted meaning, it refers to the public rites and ceremonies officially authorized by the Church.
It is literally the ‘work of the people’ in their common life of prayer and worship.
It is used in several places in the New Testament, particularly in Acts 13:1. It is a word “transliterated” into the English language.
A liturgy disciplines our prayers, making them fit for expression, unselfish in content, and comprehensive in scope. They are not haphazardly thrown together in recesses of my finite mind.
A liturgy instructs us in the totality of the Christian faith and in the whole range of worship: confession, praise, intercession and self-offering.
The order of a liturgy in its structural framework must be unaltered. Without a fixed order, a liturgy is like a body without a skeleton, a game without rules., a train hopelessly looking for a track. A fixed order is necessary if worship is to be corporate. A fixed order keeps the fact of redemption before men’s thoughts continually with fixed words, expressions and symbolism.
It is simply the “form” of worship, nothing more or less. Liturgy is neither alive nor dead, it simply is.
The Jewish synagogues passed on to Christianity the forms of corporate worship. The reading of scripture, a confession of faith, prayers and the singing of Psalms all have its roots in Jewish worship.
From the Temple and Synagogue worship, the Apostles already knew the rites and the ceremonies that God ordained to worship Him. God set down the first “order of service” in Leviticus. Only now those rites and ceremonies took on new meaning in Christ and were transferred to the worship rites of primitive Church.
continued…
J
JustaServant
Guest
The early Church had a high view of God. Things were not done in a haphazard way. They were done with precision. Worshippers knew something important was happening here. They just did not stumble in and sit for an hour.
They came to worship God. So there are certain things they will do
that they have done before. One of the chief values of a liturgy is that it teaches us both how to pray and what things we should pray for.
There is a certain ceremony and process that the worshipper is bound to, external actions, gestures, movements that are part of the public exercise of divine worship. Worshippers come to worship with their whole bodies, using all the senses. Seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling are all involved in the worship experience.
Worship involves the WHOLE BODY, not just the brain or emotions.
When matched with the Power of the Holy Spirit, liturgy finds it’s most powerful expression. Words, prayers, creeds, and songs are chosen carefully.
There is precise language that is used, not words chosen in a haphazard way. The language of worship is important, words must be chosen carefully.
The object in liturgical worship is God alone. Not the preacher, not the music. It is a corporate expression of worship to an invisible God. It is not a spectator sport, it is an interactive experience.
It is clear where irreverent worship has taken us in our Western society. What passes for worship in the modern Church are programs and entertainment or turning the Church into a lecture hall. It lacks the heart and soul of true worship. In the modern Church’s efforts to be innovative and create a ‘worship style’ it has manufactured a worship in the pattern of man’s invention, void of meaning.
However, Catholic worship is not without meaning. God has provided an outline, a form of worship that combines with our zeal to create meaning. The worshipper that worships God with every fiber of his being will bring to that service all the love and devotion he has for the Creator.
There is a respect and a dignity to liturgical worship that I do not see in evangelical/fundamentalist churches. Saying prayers and confessions out loud in unison has more meaning with the power of the Holy Spirit. It is not a mark of ‘dead worship’, it is a mark of living worship.
They came to worship God. So there are certain things they will do
that they have done before. One of the chief values of a liturgy is that it teaches us both how to pray and what things we should pray for.
There is a certain ceremony and process that the worshipper is bound to, external actions, gestures, movements that are part of the public exercise of divine worship. Worshippers come to worship with their whole bodies, using all the senses. Seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling are all involved in the worship experience.
Worship involves the WHOLE BODY, not just the brain or emotions.
When matched with the Power of the Holy Spirit, liturgy finds it’s most powerful expression. Words, prayers, creeds, and songs are chosen carefully.
There is precise language that is used, not words chosen in a haphazard way. The language of worship is important, words must be chosen carefully.
The object in liturgical worship is God alone. Not the preacher, not the music. It is a corporate expression of worship to an invisible God. It is not a spectator sport, it is an interactive experience.
It is clear where irreverent worship has taken us in our Western society. What passes for worship in the modern Church are programs and entertainment or turning the Church into a lecture hall. It lacks the heart and soul of true worship. In the modern Church’s efforts to be innovative and create a ‘worship style’ it has manufactured a worship in the pattern of man’s invention, void of meaning.
However, Catholic worship is not without meaning. God has provided an outline, a form of worship that combines with our zeal to create meaning. The worshipper that worships God with every fiber of his being will bring to that service all the love and devotion he has for the Creator.
There is a respect and a dignity to liturgical worship that I do not see in evangelical/fundamentalist churches. Saying prayers and confessions out loud in unison has more meaning with the power of the Holy Spirit. It is not a mark of ‘dead worship’, it is a mark of living worship.
L
ltwin
Guest
That is my point. To say that Protestants think Catholics are pagans and anti-Bible because they worship liturgically is wrong. What I am saying is that the charge that non-liturgical Protestants equate liturgical worship with paganism and anti-biblical practice is wrong. There may be some who do, but to generalize is not possible. There are Protestants who see nothing wrong with liturgical worship in and of itself, they just see their own way of ordering their services as more conducive to what they believe.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Ask your preacher sometime to try an experiment. Have him lead the people in the Lord’s Prayer, or read the Apostle’s Creed (with that word “catholic”
in it).And watch what happens.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Jim…they were at a gathering…it was funny because then afterwards the lay members of their institute came in wearing flowing habits…Now the norm for secular institutes is that the habit of the institute is reserved for the lay person when they are in their casket; no more parading around. It also causes confusion to some people.
At Mass, there are parts critical…and the priest must atleast be minimally vested to say Mass.
The other…is that there are 4 basic Eucharistic prayers and the consecration. And there are others for special occasions and children’s Masses. I have found reflecting on the prayers has opened me up to so much depth of Scripture, of faith, and of the higher calling that the Lord indeed is carrying us at Mass to the high altar in heaven…our eventual home some day.
There is so much depth to the liturgy…I studied for over 5 years in the diocese and my last classes were on the liturgy…but I ended up finding them my favorite subject. I am getting through ‘Worthy of the Lamb’ by Tom Nash, and then slowly going through former Cardinal Ratzinger’s ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’ where he explains the 3 different levels of the Mass.
It is also interesting to read the history of the Mass and how the Nazarene (Jewish) Christians developed theirs and their chant from the Gentile Christians.
Every sentiment, movement, gesture, artwork, the environment itself must bear witness to the truth and reality of Jesus Christ.
Former Protestants cannot believe how much the Mass is based on Sacred Scripture.
Alot of Catholics do not know all the depths to the Mass…we have had classes for them but they are always so busy that it is hard for them to come to learn more.
So we put excerpts in our Sunday bulletin.
Another interesting movement in the USA is that many RC parishes are wanting to use Orthodox/Byzantine icons. We have among the largest in the country at my parish. We have the Crucifixion above the altar, the Resurrected Lord taking Adam’s hand on one side, and are waiting for the Annunciation to go up on the other side. We were given two weeks of instruction in the bulletin as to what all the symbolism means…so you can learn more about your faith by gazing and reflecting on them in art form vs text form. The elongation of hands and bodies represent contemplation.
Certain substances of color are used; there are disciplines to follow.
It would be wonderful for Evangelical and Baptist communities to study icons and paint one of their own like my girlfriend did and has it in her dining room…very nice.
At Mass, there are parts critical…and the priest must atleast be minimally vested to say Mass.
The other…is that there are 4 basic Eucharistic prayers and the consecration. And there are others for special occasions and children’s Masses. I have found reflecting on the prayers has opened me up to so much depth of Scripture, of faith, and of the higher calling that the Lord indeed is carrying us at Mass to the high altar in heaven…our eventual home some day.
There is so much depth to the liturgy…I studied for over 5 years in the diocese and my last classes were on the liturgy…but I ended up finding them my favorite subject. I am getting through ‘Worthy of the Lamb’ by Tom Nash, and then slowly going through former Cardinal Ratzinger’s ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’ where he explains the 3 different levels of the Mass.
It is also interesting to read the history of the Mass and how the Nazarene (Jewish) Christians developed theirs and their chant from the Gentile Christians.
Every sentiment, movement, gesture, artwork, the environment itself must bear witness to the truth and reality of Jesus Christ.
Former Protestants cannot believe how much the Mass is based on Sacred Scripture.
Alot of Catholics do not know all the depths to the Mass…we have had classes for them but they are always so busy that it is hard for them to come to learn more.
So we put excerpts in our Sunday bulletin.
Another interesting movement in the USA is that many RC parishes are wanting to use Orthodox/Byzantine icons. We have among the largest in the country at my parish. We have the Crucifixion above the altar, the Resurrected Lord taking Adam’s hand on one side, and are waiting for the Annunciation to go up on the other side. We were given two weeks of instruction in the bulletin as to what all the symbolism means…so you can learn more about your faith by gazing and reflecting on them in art form vs text form. The elongation of hands and bodies represent contemplation.
Certain substances of color are used; there are disciplines to follow.
It would be wonderful for Evangelical and Baptist communities to study icons and paint one of their own like my girlfriend did and has it in her dining room…very nice.
N
nickybr38
Guest
Okay guys… I think I asked this before but I haven’t seen any answer so I’ll rephrase the question.
Doesn’t liturgical worship just mean a particular arrangement of services and/or a form of public worship? And if so doesn’t that mean most, if not all, Protestant churches have their own liturgy?
I have yet to attend a Protestant service that did NOT have a order to the service… so, that would mean they have liturgy…
So am I misunderstanding the word or are Protestants just refusing to accept the simple meaning of the word?
Doesn’t liturgical worship just mean a particular arrangement of services and/or a form of public worship? And if so doesn’t that mean most, if not all, Protestant churches have their own liturgy?
I have yet to attend a Protestant service that did NOT have a order to the service… so, that would mean they have liturgy…
So am I misunderstanding the word or are Protestants just refusing to accept the simple meaning of the word?
I believe it is more than just an order of worship. When talk comes up in my church about the idea of “contemporary” worship, my response (I’m an elder), is always that, within reason (that reason being it must be doctrinally sound), the music can be “contemporary”, but there are certain things that must be there, and not excluded. Invocation, confession/Absolution, lectionary readings, the Gospel, the sacrament, to name a few.
Jon
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Nate13
Guest
Protestants usually cringe when you start talking about liturgical in the sense that you are all saying the same prayers together week after week. Even saying the Lord’s prayer or the creed altogether on a regular basis makes them squeamish. I think it has a lot to do with feelings. When they speak from the heart and just let it kind of flow on the spot it “feels” more real and “feels” like there is a deeper more personal connection to God. You also see this theme pop up in music selection. I think it is wrong to try and attach our connection to God to our physical feelings.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Yes.
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