Why do Christians accept Jesus

[The_Truthinator]

If you look, I was talking about the appeal of Christianity at the time of its birth

Christianity began as a strictly Jewish sect. In fact, when the first uncircumcised Gentile (Cornelius) wished to become a Christian, there was such an uproar that the very first Church Council was held in oder to discuss the matter and, under the guide of the Holy Spirit, come to a sound conclusion concerning what the best choice of action was.

To the Jews of the day, still, like today, the idea of God Incarnate and such things were unheard of … appalling! The Gospel Message was preached throughout many lands, and the reception was no more than was to be expected out of, “This carpenter’s son and his crazy, locust-eating cousin went preaching great messages of hope and righteousness everywhere but the cousin got beheaded and the other, well, he was beaten and whipped severely, was crucified, and died … BUT, he rose again!”

In Paul’s words:

“God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe. It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom. So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense.”

Acts also speaks of Gentiles turned off by the mention of the resurrection of the dead, the “great thinkers” shrugging it off as “nonsense.” How much appeal can a religion that has no validity to it really have if its history is centered around the humiliation of its God and the 180 degree turn made by his followers, former fishermen and Israeli “rednecks” (with the exception of Paul, an ex-Pharisee, and James, Jesus’ brother, who seemed fairly well instructed as well)? Not much. Yet because God was really, truly the Author of and Main Character in this grand story, something startling happened–Christianity began to go on the rise! The wisdom of men was revealed as foolishness, and this ridiculously absurd Message was revealed as the very wisdom of God. Paul knew he sounded stupid; he didn’t care, just like he didn’t care when the Judaizers seemed bent on circumcising every last Christian convert and he intervened and said, “True circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit.”

(By the way, Valke2, perhaps I shouldn’t have put “likewise” in there in order to clarify that the relationship I was trying to emphasize was his death and resurrection, not the analogy with the bread, which I am aware is unleavened. Also, you read the bulk of that paragraph and *that’s *what you hit on? lol)

As far as any relationship with paganism goes, here you go:

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0169a.html

I’ve talked enough for tonight. Shalom. =)

 

[Larry1700]

If you look, I was talking about the appeal of Christianity at the time of its birth rather than launching a discussion about “Section 11; Subsection 93; para 8.b.iii” of the Magisterium’s current regulations.

My post with the excerpt from the Catechism was in response to this sentence in your post:

It’s like it discovered a symptomless illness, broadcast to everybody who might possibly hear that they were doomed and pronounced itself the only cure.

 

[Larry1700]

Oh, I’d suggest that there’s a lot of psychological immediacy in the ‘clarity’ - bad things happening to good people/good things happening to bad people is followed, however, by eternal revenge.

Forgive my stupidity, but don’t Jews believe in Hell? If not, what becomes of those who don’t follow God’s commandments?

You’re talking to the mother in a Jewish family.

My comment was really about the repetitive “birth/life/passion/death” drama that surrounds Christianity. The Gospels (especially John) to this particular outsider do seem as if they should be performed than read.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean here, but I get the impression from this and other statements of yours that you are poking fun at Christianity. I hope I’m wrong. I don’t think I’ve made fun of Judaism. If I have, please point out where, and accept my apologies. If you’re referring to my post where I said when I read the story of the Exodus I felt like grabbing the Jews by the shoulders, shaking them, and saying “Don’t you realize what God has done for you,” it wasn’t meant as poking fun, but serious incredulity at how people who had miracles performed in front of them over and over again could not be ready and willing to follow God. Who knows, if I would have been in their shoes, I might have done the same thing. Reading about it in a book makes the events feel like they’re happening more quickly than they did in real life.

 

[Kaninchen]

Christianity began as a strictly Jewish sect.

I’m aware of that - I’ve read Eisenman’s ‘James, brother of Jesus’ on the question of Paul v’s the Jerusalem ‘church’.

As far as any relationship with paganism goes, here you go:

I wasn’t implying that Christianity was derived from paganism, I was suggesting that there were aspects of Christianity that a pagan ‘market’ would find appealing (but a Jewish ‘market’ would find anathema). It’s a different argument altogether.

 

[Kaninchen]

Forgive my stupidity, but don’t Jews believe in Hell? If not, what becomes of those who don’t follow God’s commandments?

We’re terribly vague on the ‘afterlife’, it’s not a preoccupation in Judaism.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean here, but I get the impression from this and other statements of yours that you are poking fun at Christianity.

I haven’t consciously done so - certainly I’ve talked as if there’s a species of ‘marketing’ involved in the religious sphere but I do believe that. It’s inherent in the Christian desire to broadcast the faith throughout the world, after all.

I’ve also said that Christianity, the Christian story (like Shia Islam) has a kind of theatricality about it - Jesus is playing out (by which I mean going through, not faking) a story of passion with passionate characters which Christians replay every year. I may not believe in it at all but I can see how it is very involving and appealing to people.

 

[Larry1700]

We’re terribly vague on the ‘afterlife’, it’s not a preoccupation in Judaism.

Very interesting. I guess it’s because of my Christian background, but I am surprised that a “religion” (I’m using the term to apply to any group who worships a god or gods, as opposed to “atheists” or “agnostics”) would not be concerned with what happens to souls and bodies after death.

I haven’t consciously done so - certainly I’ve talked as if there’s a species of ‘marketing’ involved in the religious sphere but I do believe that. It’s inherent in the Christian desire to broadcast the faith throughout the world, after all.

I think I understand what you mean, but the term “marketing” implies a monetary connotation. While money is indeed helpful in all aspects of human endeavours, and neither the Catholic Church, a Protestant organization, or a Jewish synagogue would turn down a donation, our purposes in spreading the faith throughout the world is not related to money. For example, I get zero dollars from trying to convince non-Christians about the Gospel of Jesus Christ (in fact, I lose time doing all this reading and typing ). The only reason I do it is because I sincerely believe it to be the Truth, and I am seriously concerned about the souls of others.

Think about it in another way. If you had a common, medically incurable disease for years, and you heard about a village in Timbuktu that had a plant that cured it, you would give it a try. If it worked, would you keep it to yourself? I would hope that you would tell all your family and friends, go on the news, etc., etc., etc., telling everyone the “gospel” (good news). That’s what we, as Christians, are doing.

I’ve also said that Christianity, the Christian story (like Shia Islam) has a kind of theatricality about it - Jesus is playing out (by which I mean going through, not faking) a story of passion with passionate characters which Christians replay every year. I may not believe in it at all but I can see how it is very involving and appealing to people.

The Exodus narrative, the Davidic narratives, etc. are wonderfully compelling, and are worthy of large-scale film productions. Also, don’t the Jews celebrate the Passover every year? Aren’t there other annual Jewish celebrations which are replayed every year? Don’t you go to synagogue each week to read about past events in Jewish history (i.e., the Tanach?) How is Christianity different from Judaism in this respect?

 

[Larry1700]

we do not sacrifice animals for any intentional or unintentional sins since the destruction of the temple. The concept of “teshuva” (return) existed along with the Temple, as far as I know. It consists, basically of:

1. Recognizing and accepting the sin. Regret what you did.
2. stop doing it.
3. Confess the sin to God.
4. If it was a sin against another, seek their forgivness.
   Make restitution if necssay.
5. Never do it agian. When a similar situation arises, you don’t do what you did.

Even when the Temple was around, the above was extremely important. Now it is the exclusive way of atonement for Jews.

Forgive me if you’ve explained already (I can’t spend much time today on these forums, so can’t read previous posts in detail), but the point of my question was to find out if Jews don’t adhere strictly to some of the Law of Moses. From your response here, it sounds like there was a change which was essentially forced upon you (you can’t sacrifice in a Temple that no longer exists).

My question was in response to a previous post of yours regarding Jesus saying he would not change anything in the Law, but you mentioned some things Jesus did apparently change.

(My wording here is crude because of lack of time, so again I apologize, but hopefully you’ll understand my question.)

 

[Valke2]

Where please? Thank you

Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosiah 11:9.
In Exodus we learn that no man can see God’s face and live.

The Old Law allowed sins to be ‘covered.’ The New Covenant allowed sins to be removed and forgotten.

Was Paul circumcised?

Yes. Don’t know about the others. I’d assume so if they were Jews.

 

[Valke2]

Where please? Thank you

Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosiah 11:9.
In Exodus we learn that no man can see God’s face and live.

Was Paul circumcised?

Yes. Don’t know about the others. I’d assume so if they were Jews.

 

[Valke2]

Where please? Thank you

Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosiah 11:9.
In Exodus we learn that no man can see God’s face and live.

Was Paul circumcised?

Yes. Don’t know about the others. I’d assume so if they were Jews.

 

[Kaninchen]

Very interesting. I guess it’s because of my Christian background, but I am surprised that a “religion” (I’m using the term to apply to any group who worships a god or gods, as opposed to “atheists” or “agnostics”) would not be concerned with what happens to souls and bodies after death.

Perhaps Judaism is just more focused on life before death.

I think I understand what you mean, but the term “marketing” implies a monetary connotation.

Depends on how far you want to push any analogy.

Don’t you go to synagogue each week to read about past events in Jewish history (i.e., the Tanach?) How is Christianity different from Judaism in this respect?

Good stories, lessons to be learned and so on, of course. Perhaps I’ve been listening to too many Christians who believe in a significance to the ‘virgin’ birth, passion, death and supposed resurrection of Jesus beyond the edifying/instructive.

 

[Larry1700]

Perhaps Judaism is just more focused on life before death.

Uh, well, Christianity definitely places a strong emphasis on being loving, compassionate, etc. in this life. However, we also realize that there is life after death, and we want to do what we can to make sure ourselves and others get to Heaven.

Depends on how far you want to push any analogy.

True, but careful selection of the words used in analogies can help prevent unintended interpretations.

Good stories, lessons to be learned and so on, of course.

Am I to understand that you don’t believe the accounts of Jewish history in the Tanakh are true?

Perhaps I’ve been listening to too many Christians who believe in a significance to the ‘virgin’ birth, passion, death and supposed resurrection of Jesus beyond the edifying/instructive.

We believe these events actually happened, therefore they are extremely significant to us.

 

[Jayda]

It is odd to me that Christians would accept Jesus. God had already told us He was not a man. The vast majority of Jews who were familiary with their own scripture did not accept Jesus as Messiah while he was alive or afterward. And we already had a system in place, that required teshuva as a form of repentence so that there was no need for any “god” to die for our sins.

It seems to me that this was all just a response to the gentile’s fear of circumcision. I just don’t get it.

hola

gracias for your question, it is very difficult. i think miraculousness of Jesus’ life is a major component but perhaps more importantly the gentle and persuasive force of Jesus feels the same to me as the gentle and persuasive force of God when i feel His presence.

the miraculousness of His life i think is undeniable… His miracles include being born from a Virgin, performing many miracles like walking on water, resurrecting from the dead, feeding thousands and driving evil out of people. the other miraculous things about Jesus were the things he taught and said, like the beatitudes:

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land.
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

the second thing i said, about a gentle and persuasive force is very difficult for me to explain. i have never felt ransomed or extorted by God… like i never felt like i had to do something for God because He would hurt me or could destroy me… even though I know he could. i have always felt pressured to do what God wants though, because of a melange of reasons including it just feels right, i know it is the best thing to do, i want to make God happy and other things… none of them include fear or force or things associated with power that are like that.

the only example i can even think of to explain this kind of power is Jesus, who was a poor carpenter, every authority on earth fought against Him and He never had a sword or an army or any kind of power. but even still he did, people came to Him and worshipped Him, they brought their sick children to Him and they touched Him just because they believed He would heal them. that is the compelling power i am trying to explain when i talk about God.

Jesus is the only example… i respect the Prophets the Patriarchs the Saints and the Holy Fathers greatly and would do whatever they say because it is what God wants, but they do not even have the same effect on people, and they lack whatever quality i see in Jesus that i independently identify with God.

im sorry if this is just confusing… it is difficult to explain

que Dios te bendiga
Dominus Vobiscum to the Catholics

 

[Kaninchen]

Am I to understand that you don’t believe the accounts of Jewish history in the Tanakh are true?

Rather depends on what you mean by ‘true’ and the implications of that ‘truth’.

Remember that the Tanakh is organized quite differently from the ‘Old Testament’ reflecting its significance. Centrally, Prophets and Writings, along with Oral Torah are about understanding Torah, the Law - it’s not about a sequence leading up to some event (like the birth of Jesus) where it’s essential that something is taken to be a particular species of ‘true’ otherwise the whole thing falls apart.

The two religions are very, very different you know.

Meanwhile we’re drifting a long way from the topic of the the thread and I fear that you may falling into the pointless trap of trying to convince me of the Christian message!

 

[jonfan]

Hi Valke,
I also think you have to ask yourself why would apostles that followed Christ get burned at stakes or crucified upside down if they didn’t believe Christ raised from the dead. All they had to do was say no. They didn’t fight back. It wasn’t a power issue. I also look at Christ teachings. There isn’t one thing he said or did that was self serving. Hope this helps.

 

[Valke2]

Hi Valke,
I also think you have to ask yourself why would apostles that followed Christ get burned at stakes or crucified upside down if they didn’t believe Christ raised from the dead. All they had to do was say no. They didn’t fight back. It wasn’t a power issue. I also look at Christ teachings. There isn’t one thing he said or did that was self serving. Hope this helps.

I don’t know what they believed. But people die for what they believe all the time. What about the thousands and thousands and thousands of Jews who died for what they believed? Rabbi Akiva suffered flaying and burning rather than give up teaching Torah. So who’s right?

 

[Larry1700]

Rather depends on what you mean by ‘true’ and the implications of that ‘truth’.

I simply asked if you believe the events actually happened. I guess you don’t want to answer the question.

Remember that the Tanakh is organized quite differently from the ‘Old Testament’ reflecting its significance. Centrally, Prophets and Writings, along with Oral Torah are about understanding Torah, the Law - it’s not about a sequence leading up to some event (like the birth of Jesus) where it’s essential that something is taken to be a particular species of ‘true’ otherwise the whole thing falls apart.

I didn’t realize it was organized differently, but I thought the narratives were the same.

The two religions are very, very different you know.

In some ways, yes. In some ways, no.

Meanwhile we’re drifting a long way from the topic of the the thread and I fear that you may falling into the pointless trap of trying to convince me of the Christian message!

While I would certainly like to convince you of the Christian message, that was not the intent of my posts. You said several things about Christianity (on a Catholic forum, mind you), which needed to be refuted/clarified/discussed. If you don’t wish to hear about Christianity, there are other places you could spend your time. If you come to a Catholic board and make remarks like you did, don’t be surprised if someone enters into a debate with you, and his/her comments have a Catholic perspective.

 

[Kaninchen]

I simply asked if you believe the events actually happened. I guess you don’t want to answer the question.

Sometimes it’s the questions that need more care than the answers.

You said several things about Christianity (on a Catholic forum, mind you), which needed to be refuted/clarified/discussed. If you don’t wish to hear about Christianity, there are other places you could spend your time. If you come to a Catholic board and make remarks like you did, don’t be surprised if someone enters into a debate with you, and his/her comments have a Catholic perspective.

Consider the context behind what I had said. The question I’d set myself to address was what was the appeal of Christianity in the first place, not the finer points of Christian (particularly Catholic) apologetics. If I have to remember where ‘I am’, you should consider that, to me, Christianity is no more or less exotic/interesting than Islam or Buddhism - so, if I say that, to me, there is a drama behind Christianity that I think might appeal to certain people, or that there are elements in Christianity that would have found echoes in the ancient pagan mind, I’m an outsider talking about what I might describe as the Christian ‘interface’ at the time.

It has been my perception that, in your desire to tell me where I’m wrong, you’ve rather missed the context of my comments.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Jesus was not given his own section. If you’d like, I’ll post what the Talmud had to say about Bar Kokhba and you can compare the length, etc.

Yes, if you could. And also, if you could provide a biography of Bar Kokhba if it is not provided by the Talmud.

Thanks.

 

[ricmat]

Meanwhile we’re drifting a long way from the topic of the the thread and I fear that you may falling into the pointless trap of trying to convince me of the Christian message!

GASP!! Would we do such a thing?

We really like having you on the forum, even if you are unconvincable.

But I will say, that it seems like your’re going to Munich in October to avoid the trap of drinking any beer.