Why do Christians have girlfriends/boyfriends before marriage when it is clearly against the message of Jesus

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LauraMajestic

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Hello everyone.

I am here with a serious question and I warn you now this is going to be very challenging. If you do not want to be challenged please do not read.

Thank you 🙂

So, whilst many Catholics forbid sex before marriage they do still have girlfriends/boyfriends and kissing. Sometimes this entails sexual contact (i.e third base: which is a hilarious way to go around the sin of intercourse). However, some are very conservative and only kiss their partner and think they are pure: they are not involved in any sin.

I warn you now that, according to the Gospels themselves, you are deeply wrong and I am going to use the words of Jesus himself to back me up.

Jesus discusses divorce and although he does admit the law of Moses have permitted the practical use of divorce (Mark 10.5, Matt 19.8 ) he states divorce is very wrong on a spiritual level:

Mark- 10.11-12

“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

Matt - 19.9

“I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

The most obvious message is clear, divorce is adultery, but there is much more nuance in Jesus’ words. Look at the words of Mark, the earliest Gospel. Jesus explicitly says that if you divorce WIFE A and then marry WIFE B you are committing adultery on WIFE A. It’s plain and simple to see and it’s in the text of the Gospel of Mark itself.

Matthew has a similar message except it is not as explicit as Mark and the effect is cancelled out if the wife has had an affair. It’s highly probable that Matthew is softening the message to appeal to his audience (as he does at other points in the Gospel such as with the message on the food laws). The later time of the writing of Matthew is also a factor. However Matthew is still saying that divorce is adultery.

So by Jesus’ logic let’s seriously think here for a second. If you divorce WIFEA to marry WIFEB, which Jesus says is adultery against WIFA, then surely having GIRLFRIENDA and then having GIRLFRIENDB is adultery to GIRLFRIENDA. How many girlfriends/boyfriends do most people have? Every ex-partner, according to Jesus, is adultery against that individual.

This passage really struck me when I was studying the Gospels because it’s very overlooked. Can you offer your interpretation on this?
 
LauraMajestic said:
Hello everyone.

I am here with a serious question and I warn you now this is going to be very challenging. If you do not want to be challenged please do not read.

Thank you 🙂

So, whilst many Catholics forbid sex before marriage they do still have girlfriends/boyfriends and kissing. Sometimes this entails sexual contact (i.e third base: which is a hilarious way to go around the sin of intercourse). However, some are very conservative and only kiss their partner and think they are pure: they are not involved in any sin.

I warn you now that, according to the Gospels themselves, you are deeply wrong and I am going to use the words of Jesus himself to back me up.

Jesus discusses divorce and although he does admit the law of Moses have permitted the practical use of divorce (Mark 10.5, Matt 19.8 ) he states divorce is very wrong on a spiritual level:

Mark- 10.11-12

“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

Matt - 19.9

“I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

The most obvious message is clear, divorce is adultery, but there is much more nuance in Jesus’ words. Look at the words of Mark, the earliest Gospel. Jesus explicitly says that if you divorce WIFE A and then marry WIFE B you are committing adultery on WIFE A. It’s plain and simple to see and it’s in the text of the Gospel of Mark itself.

Matthew has a similar message except it is not as explicit as Mark and the effect is cancelled out if the wife has had an affair. It’s highly probable that Matthew is softening the message to appeal to his audience (as he does at other points in the Gospel such as with the message on the food laws). The later time of the writing of Matthew is also a factor. However Matthew is still saying that divorce is adultery.

So by Jesus’ logic let’s seriously think here for a second. If you divorce WIFEA to marry WIFEB, which Jesus says is adultery against WIFA, then surely having GIRLFRIENDA and then having GIRLFRIENDB is adultery to GIRLFRIENDA. How many girlfriends/boyfriends do most people have? Every ex-partner, according to Jesus, is adultery against that individual.

This passage really struck me when I was studying the Gospels because it’s very overlooked. Can you offer your interpretation on this?
Click to expand...
Wow, you’re completely off base here.

Adultery involves having sex with someone who is not your spouse. If no one in the relationship is married, you can’t commit adultery.

Dating someone does not create a permanent relationship. You are free to date as many people as necessary before finding an appropriate spouse.

If you commit sexual sin while dating, that’s fornication. It’s mortally sinful, but still not adultery.

God Bless
 
LauraMajestic said:
Hello everyone.

I am here with a serious question and I warn you now this is going to be very challenging. If you do not want to be challenged please do not read.

Thank you 🙂

So, whilst many Catholics forbid sex before marriage they do still have girlfriends/boyfriends and kissing. Sometimes this entails sexual contact (i.e third base: which is a hilarious way to go around the sin of intercourse). However, some are very conservative and only kiss their partner and think they are pure: they are not involved in any sin.

I warn you now that, according to the Gospels themselves, you are deeply wrong and I am going to use the words of Jesus himself to back me up.

Jesus discusses divorce and although he does admit the law of Moses have permitted the practical use of divorce (Mark 10.5, Matt 19.8 ) he states divorce is very wrong on a spiritual level:

Mark- 10.11-12

“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

Matt - 19.9

“I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

The most obvious message is clear, divorce is adultery, but there is much more nuance in Jesus’ words. Look at the words of Mark, the earliest Gospel. Jesus explicitly says that if you divorce WIFE A and then marry WIFE B you are committing adultery on WIFE A. It’s plain and simple to see and it’s in the text of the Gospel of Mark itself.

Matthew has a similar message except it is not as explicit as Mark and the effect is cancelled out if the wife has had an affair. It’s highly probable that Matthew is softening the message to appeal to his audience (as he does at other points in the Gospel such as with the message on the food laws). The later time of the writing of Matthew is also a factor. However Matthew is still saying that divorce is adultery.

So by Jesus’ logic let’s seriously think here for a second. If you divorce WIFEA to marry WIFEB, which Jesus says is adultery against WIFA, then surely having GIRLFRIENDA and then having GIRLFRIENDB is adultery to GIRLFRIENDA. How many girlfriends/boyfriends do most people have? Every ex-partner, according to Jesus, is adultery against that individual.

This passage really struck me when I was studying the Gospels because it’s very overlooked. Can you offer your interpretation on this?
Click to expand...
My interpretation is that you have no clue what you are talking about and have failed to take the advice of several other posters on several other threads and actually learn about what you are trying to argue against. Your “girlfriend/boyfriend is similar to wife/husband so having more than 1 gf/bf is adultery” argument is idiotic. You’d have been better served using the passage from Matthew concerning adultery and looking lustfully. If you want a serious discussion you need to actually post some serious questions, not some random rants about half understood concepts.
 
oldcatholicguy said:
My interpretation is that you have no clue what you are talking about and have failed to take the advice of several other posters on several other threads and actually learn about what you are trying to argue against. Your “girlfriend/boyfriend is similar to wife/husband so having more than 1 gf/bf is adultery” argument is idiotic. You’d have been better served using the passage from Matthew concerning adultery and looking lustfully. If you want a serious discussion you need to actually post some serious questions, not some random rants about half understood concepts.
Click to expand...
Concur 100%. I strongly suspect trolling.

I only answer so no innocent lurker is misled by the nonsense being spewed.

God Bless
 
oldcatholicguy said:
My interpretation is that you have no clue what you are talking about and have failed to take the advice of several other posters on several other threads and actually learn about what you are trying to argue against. Your “girlfriend/boyfriend is similar to wife/husband so having more than 1 gf/bf is adultery” argument is idiotic. You’d have been better served using the passage from Matthew concerning adultery and looking lustfully. If you want a serious discussion you need to actually post some serious questions, not some random rants about half understood concepts.
Click to expand...
All this may be true, but charity is the only way to go, even if someone isn’t sincere and is just trolling. Getting a rise out of you is just what a troll would want. Best thing to do is assume the best intention, even if all indications are that you might be mistaken in doing so–if you’re mistaken and they’re trolling, it’s on you. And if they’re being read wrong, being uncharitable would never be indicated anyway.

-ACEGC
 
LauraMajestic said:
Hello everyone.

I am here with a serious question and I warn you now this is going to be very challenging. If you do not want to be challenged please do not read.

Thank you 🙂

So, whilst many Catholics forbid sex before marriage they do still have girlfriends/boyfriends and kissing. Sometimes this entails sexual contact (i.e third base: which is a hilarious way to go around the sin of intercourse). However, some are very conservative and only kiss their partner and think they are pure: they are not involved in any sin.

I warn you now that, according to the Gospels themselves, you are deeply wrong and I am going to use the words of Jesus himself to back me up.

Jesus discusses divorce and although he does admit the law of Moses have permitted the practical use of divorce (Mark 10.5, Matt 19.8 ) he states divorce is very wrong on a spiritual level:

Mark- 10.11-12

“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

Matt - 19.9

“I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

The most obvious message is clear, divorce is adultery, but there is much more nuance in Jesus’ words. Look at the words of Mark, the earliest Gospel. Jesus explicitly says that if you divorce WIFE A and then marry WIFE B you are committing adultery on WIFE A. It’s plain and simple to see and it’s in the text of the Gospel of Mark itself.

Matthew has a similar message except it is not as explicit as Mark and the effect is cancelled out if the wife has had an affair. It’s highly probable that Matthew is softening the message to appeal to his audience (as he does at other points in the Gospel such as with the message on the food laws). The later time of the writing of Matthew is also a factor. However Matthew is still saying that divorce is adultery.

So by Jesus’ logic let’s seriously think here for a second. If you divorce WIFEA to marry WIFEB, which Jesus says is adultery against WIFA, then surely having GIRLFRIENDA and then having GIRLFRIENDB is adultery to GIRLFRIENDA. How many girlfriends/boyfriends do most people have? Every ex-partner, according to Jesus, is adultery against that individual.

This passage really struck me when I was studying the Gospels because it’s very overlooked. Can you offer your interpretation on this?
Click to expand...
Before all, we have to define each word. What is a girl friend? What is a boy friend? What is the fiançaille? What is the marriage? What is a divorce? What is the repudiation? What is the conjugal infidelity? What is the Pornea? What is the marriage? What are the constitutive elements of marriage? What is the declaration of nullity of marriage? What is the lust? What is a wrong sexual act? What is a good sexual act? What is a wrong sexual thought? What is a good sexual thought? What is a good sexual intentionality? What is a wrong sexual intentionality? In catholicism, each act can be morally wrong or good, in functions of ciscumstances and intentions (seven or eight types of circumstance and intentions.
1.The “Quis”, the person who has realized the act (who);
2.The “Quibus auxiliis”, the means used (employed);
3. The “Quid”, the act that the person has made (what);
4. The “Ubi”, the place where the person has made the act (where);
5. The"Quando", the time when the person has made the act (when);
6. The “Quomodo”, the manner which the person has made the act (how);
7. The “Cur”, the motives that have motivated the person to perform the act (what for);
8. The “Circa quid”, the matter (material) on which the person has acted;
They are useful in order to identify if an act is moral or not.

“The substance of the act ” is useful for to know if an act is immoral by nature, per se, in itself and of itself.

**
Be careful, not to be puritan, moralist, stricter than the official teaching of the Roman Cattholic Church.**
 
I see some of you Christians are nice and friendly until someone has different views and then you get angry and bitter. Quite amusing. And you think I am the one who deserves eternal damnation for not having a good heart.
bilop said:
Wow, you’re completely off base here.

Adultery involves having sex with someone who is not your spouse. If no one in the relationship is married, you can’t commit adultery.

Dating someone does not create a permanent relationship. You are free to date as many people as necessary before finding an appropriate spouse.

If you commit sexual sin while dating, that’s fornication. It’s mortally sinful, but still not adultery.

God Bless
Click to expand...
Anyway,

“Dating someone does not create a permanent relationship. You are free to date as many people as necessary before finding an appropriate spouse.”

No. no. no. no

The idea of dating is to find out if that person is a good partner for marriage. You are most certainly not free to date.

“If you commit sexual sin while dating, that’s fornication. It’s mortally sinful, but still not adultery.”

It is fornication but by Jesus’ logic you are still being ‘unfaithful’ to your ex girlfriend/boyfriends’ when you break up and get a new one whether spouse or not. It’s not difficult to understand.
 
oldcatholicguy said:
My interpretation is that you have no clue what you are talking about and have failed to take the advice of several other posters on several other threads and actually learn about what you are trying to argue against. Your “girlfriend/boyfriend is similar to wife/husband so having more than 1 gf/bf is adultery” argument is idiotic. You’d have been better served using the passage from Matthew concerning adultery and looking lustfully. If you want a serious discussion you need to actually post some serious questions, not some random rants about half understood concepts.
Click to expand...
My advice is I have a 1st Class Degree in Theology so you better stop getting so arrogant 😉

It is not an idiotic argument.

Divorcing WIFEA and marrying WIFEB is adultery to WIFEA

therefore by Jesus’ logic

Breaking up with GIRLFRIENDA and going out with GIRLFRIEND B is unfaithful to GIRLFRIENDA

It’s straightforward.
 
What you’re saying doesn’t follow logically though. Adultery in this context means a violation of the marriage bond. Where the marriage bond does not exist, there can be no sin of adultery. Cheating on a boyfriend or girlfriend would not be adultery as much as it would be dishonesty, as there is no marriage bond to violate, but there would be the trust of the other person violated. The actual act of committing a sexual sin in the process of cheating on a significant other to whom one is not married would be a different sin, that of fornication; this is a case where the circumstances determine the species of the act. That is, if one commits an act of fornication but is not married and not dating, then it is an act of fornication. If one commits an act of fornication and is dating but not yet married, it is an act of fornication and an act of breaking the trust of the significant other. If one is married and commits an act of fornication, we have full blown adultery. You seem intent on making boyfriend/girlfriend type relationships into a bond that just doesn’t exist, to the point that a breakup would be sinful. It just doesn’t follow.

EDIT:

Wife does not equal girlfriend. Breaking up with wife does not equal breaking up with girlfriend. Breaking up with wife is technically impossible since the marriage bond is permanent. Where there is no marriage bond, there can be no permanency of relationship.

And I have a BA in Theology and Philosophy, so it’s nice to see that we’re all on the same page here.

-ACEGC
 
edward_george said:
What you’re saying doesn’t follow logically though. Adultery in this context means a violation of the marriage bond. Where the marriage bond does not exist, there can be no sin of adultery. Cheating on a boyfriend or girlfriend would not be adultery as much as it would be dishonesty, as there is no marriage bond to violate, but there would be the trust of the other person violated. The actual act of committing a sexual sin in the process of cheating on a significant other to whom one is not married would be a different sin, that of fornication; this is a case where the circumstances determine the species of the act. That is, if one commits an act of fornication but is not married and not dating, then it is an act of fornication. If one commits an act of fornication and is dating but not yet married, it is an act of fornication and an act of breaking the trust of the significant other. If one is married and commits an act of fornication, we have full blown adultery. You seem intent on making boyfriend/girlfriend type relationships into a bond that just doesn’t exist, to the point that a breakup would be sinful. It just doesn’t follow.

-ACEGC
Click to expand...
I’ll concede that I earlier used the terms ‘adultery’ wrong whilst talking about the girlfriend analogy. However, by Jesus’ logic it still stands. The point Jesus is making about the adultery is that it is a ‘hardness of heart’. He’s dwelling on the matter of being unfaithful.
 
LauraMajestic said:
My advice is I have a 1st Class Degree in Theology so you better stop getting so arrogant 😉

It is not an idiotic argument.

Divorcing WIFEA and marrying WIFEB is adultery to WIFEA

therefore by Jesus’ logic

Breaking up with GIRLFRIENDA and going out with GIRLFRIEND B is unfaithful to GIRLFRIENDA

It’s straightforward.
Click to expand...
A degree doesn’t necessarily equate to intelligence. I once worked with a guy who had a Phd, he was dumber than a box of rocks. I guess that’s why he was working in a prison.
 
pete_29 said:
A degree doesn’t necessarily equate to intelligence. I once worked with a guy who had a Phd, he was dumber than a box of rocks. I guess that’s why he was working in a prison.
Click to expand...
I’m not saying it does. It does equate to education on the issue though.

And I’m defending my knowledge against someone accusing me of ignorance.
 
Well, now that it’s clear that this is a troll post, I suppose the only question is: does she genuinely not understand why her analogy does not hold (and so, genuinely think this is a convincing challenge to Biblical morality), or is she just seeing how many people she can get to argue with her?
 
LauraMajestic said:
Hello everyone.

I am here with a serious question and I warn you now this is going to be very challenging. If you do not want to be challenged please do not read.

Thank you 🙂

So, whilst many Catholics forbid sex before marriage they do still have girlfriends/boyfriends and kissing. Sometimes this entails sexual contact (i.e third base: which is a hilarious way to go around the sin of intercourse). However, some are very conservative and only kiss their partner and think they are pure: they are not involved in any sin.

I warn you now that, according to the Gospels themselves, you are deeply wrong and I am going to use the words of Jesus himself to back me up.

Jesus discusses divorce and although he does admit the law of Moses have permitted the practical use of divorce (Mark 10.5, Matt 19.8 ) he states divorce is very wrong on a spiritual level:

Mark- 10.11-12

“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

Matt - 19.9

“I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

The most obvious message is clear, divorce is adultery, but there is much more nuance in Jesus’ words. Look at the words of Mark, the earliest Gospel. Jesus explicitly says that if you divorce WIFE A and then marry WIFE B you are committing adultery on WIFE A. It’s plain and simple to see and it’s in the text of the Gospel of Mark itself.

Matthew has a similar message except it is not as explicit as Mark and the effect is cancelled out if the wife has had an affair. It’s highly probable that Matthew is softening the message to appeal to his audience (as he does at other points in the Gospel such as with the message on the food laws). The later time of the writing of Matthew is also a factor. However Matthew is still saying that divorce is adultery.

So by Jesus’ logic let’s seriously think here for a second. If you divorce WIFEA to marry WIFEB, which Jesus says is adultery against WIFA, then surely having GIRLFRIENDA and then having GIRLFRIENDB is adultery to GIRLFRIENDA. How many girlfriends/boyfriends do most people have? Every ex-partner, according to Jesus, is adultery against that individual.

This passage really struck me when I was studying the Gospels because it’s very overlooked. Can you offer your interpretation on this?
Click to expand...
How do you analyse the moral theology of Ronald Conte Jr? Do you know him and his theology? Are you on the same line than him about the conjugal sexual morality? Do you use the same methods?

Acception of the definition in the truly catholic way?
The good using of the concept of naturality of materiality of act?
The good using of the concept of the naturality of intentionality of act?
The good using of concepts of circumstances or intentions ( 7 or 8) for knowing if one act is moral or immoral?
 
Lost_Wanderer said:
This is straightforward too.

Girlfriend =/= Wife
Click to expand...
It hardly matters. Jesus is against divorce because of ‘hardness of heart’. The logic still applies to girlfriends/boyfriends even if Jesus wasn’t intending it himself.
 
Don’t know how Jesus could be referencing girlfriends since girlfriends as we know them were the cultural norms back then.🤷
 
LauraMajestic said:
It hardly matters. Jesus is against divorce because of ‘hardness of heart’. The logic still applies to girlfriends/boyfriends even if Jesus wasn’t intending it himself.
Click to expand...
Can you point out where in your original post is ‘hardness of heart’ mentioned? I don’t see how any of that negates the difference between a girlfriend and a wife.

That difference applies (even if we go by your ‘hardness of heart’ defense). The hardness of heart of switching girlfriends is not as severe as that of switching spouses.
 
You skipped over the part where marriage is a sacared covenant not even close to dating. If God only makes covenants with His people and then He expects you to make a covenant for marriage then you best make sure you keep the covenant you enter into.
 
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